• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

The Apocrypha

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by truthseeker, May 10, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    97
    +0
    Apocrypha is Greek for: hidden;secret

    It is a collection of 14 books, included both in the Catholic and Jewish Bibles. My understanding was that the Catholics don't teach from it because it is considered Old Testament; and the Jews don't teach from it because it was translated Greek.

    Since I have been born-again; I often wanted to read it, but was taught not to. In recent months, I have been searching for inner peace concerning the situation of the world and I feel that I have been led into a deeper truth. After 3 months of home study; I would like to share some of what I have learned. I have found that the writings I have been studying only enhance the Scriptures that we are familiar with.

    Who wouldn't want to read about: How Abraham at 995 years old refused to give up the ghost. Michael the Archangel was sent to him; tarried with the family a few days and when Abraham washed his feet; he cried tears that turned into precious gems when they hit the water!
    <or>
    When Jesus, at 5 years old; made sparrows out of mud as He was playing in the puddles and gave them life!
    <or>
    What really happened in The Garden...

    I am looking for fellow-spirits who have not yet found their rest and want to help me search for new treasure in the Word.

    Peace to You,
    :) truthseeker
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

    +617
    Methodist
    Single
    I will admit, I haven't read the Apocrypha myself. I have a couple Bibles with it in them, and keep telling myself to read...but I haven't done so yet.

    Maybe I'll take the time to get that done now. :)
     
  3. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    97
    +0
    Dear AngelAmidala;

    By all means you should do so. The Spirit will guide you. Although, I must admit some of what I mentioned above is included in other writings, such as; The Testament of Abraham which is not included in the Old Testament Apocrypha. I have found that; if all the writings out there, that I believe to be inspired, were put into one book; no one could carry it around! :)

    I suggest you start with Esdras, whom we know as EZRA. He had a heart to gain understanding; was visited by the angel Uriel; and with the help of 5 scribes, wrote 204 books in 40 days. Also, Bel and the Dragon is actually the last chapter of the Book of Daniel. This book gives detail of his time in the lion's den and tells how he convinces King Cyrus that his gods (Bel and the Dragon) are but clay.

    If you'd really like to dig deep; I have posted some web-sites in the Favorite Links section...under Bible Mysteries

    Peace to You,
    :pink: truthseeker
     
  4. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    I have read them..but I don't believe them to be inspiried by God.
    To me its like a history lesson.
    GEL
     
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    TruthSeeker,

    Perhaps you may also want to find out why these books were thrown out by the council. There must be good reasons for the action to be taken.

    I'm with Gel too. Also, note that the Bible says that Jesus only started performing miracles after he was baptised. so the part about making sparrows from mud is questionable to me.
     
  6. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    97
    +0
    Greetings and Peace to You

    I understand your views Andrew and GreenEyedLady...I knew that a thread like this wouldn't be for everyone. I truly do not wish to enter into any kind of debate; rather to study and discuss.

    I have done alot of reading; and there is no doubt in my heart that I have found treasure. It could be that I just may have to hide it in a field :D ...a mystery of the Kingdom!
     
  7. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    Finis Jennings Dake says
    that the apocryphal books were not accepted in the present canon of scripture for these reasons.

    1.they did not pass the tests required of inspired books.
    2.they were not written or approved by a prophet.
    3.they were not recognised by the jews as inspired and as a part of scripture.
    4.they were not recognised or even quoted by Christ and the apostles, a fact more striking as Paul quotes twice from heathen poets.
    5.the last old testament prophet predicted the next message to come to isreal from god would be the forunner of christ (john the baptist) (Mal 3.1)
    most of these books were written during this period between malachi and christ.
    6.divine authority is not claimed by their authors, and by some it is virtually disowned (2 macc. 2.23 15.38)
    7.they contain statements at variance with the bible history.
    8.they are self contradictory and opposed to doctrines of scripture.
    9.josephus did not regard them as scripture. he lived at the time of the apostles and stated that the present books of the old testament which are in our version are the only inspired books (see Josephus, book 1. section 8)
    10.they were not part of the ancient versions of scripture.
    11.they were first added after 300 a.d. the Laodicean Council in 363 a.d. rejected them as not being inspired, thus proving at that time some were claimed inspiration for them. they first appeared in the vatican version of the fourth century. at the council of trent in 1546 a.d., the Catholics accepted six of these books as inspired and added them to their modern versions of scripture. they are the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Tobit, Judith, and 1st and 2cd Maccabees.
    12.Philo and others did not regard them as inspired.
    13.the lack of prophetic element in them, and apparent imitation of other books of the old testament that are inspired.
    14.too free use of imagination, giving rise to silly stories, and lack of spiritual force and power.

    i dont consider N.T. apocryphal books inspired for reasons like,
    jesus was claimed to have made sparrows out of mud
    and many other miraclous things, when the bible says his first miracle was turning water into wine.
    john 2.10 it was his "BEGGINNING OF MIRACLES".

    when the apocryphal books claim that jesus as a boy,
    1.carried water in a cloak,
    2.stretched lumber to the desired length,
    3.made 1 grain of wheat grow 800 bushels,
    3.made birds and animals of clay and gave life to them,
    4.got angry at a boy who ran into him in the street and caused him to die,
    5.saw the parents complaining and made them blind,
    6.lepers being cleansed in water he bathed in,
    7.widened or contracted gates, boxes, milkpails and other things joseph made with wrong dimensions,
    8.changed people into animals and back again,
    9.withered peoples hands,
    10.caused blindness,
    and other such things are out of harmony with the acts of God and contradict scripture (john 10.10, acts 10.38) jesus did no miracle untill he was annointed with the spirit (john 2.11). these stories of the boy jesus are matched by those told of his sufferings, such as the cross walking and talking and of jesus coming out of the tomb so tall his head was in the clouds.

    evidence like this is why they were rejected, and why i think they are not worthy of truth.

    i am not trying to start an aregument, simply discussing why they werent accepted into the present canon of scripture, and why i do not accept them.
     
  8. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    97
    +0
    Psalms 22.3 >>>

    I do appreciate your concern; but please consider: if you are familiar with the works of Flavius, and believe what Finis said, then; why not try reading The Apocalypse of Paul, The Gospel of James, or The Letter of Peter to Philip and then judge it for yourself. I think you will be surprised at the connections to the canon scriptures.

    Again, thanks for watching out for me ;)

    Andrew >>> I wonder who was on the council? Remember it was the "council of the time" that convicted our Lord and His disciples; even unto death.

    Shalom to All
    :pink: truthseeker
     
  9. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    You better define exactly what you mean by "Apocrypha"...in the traditional meaning, it is a set of Old Testament books which are accepted by the Catholic Church as canon, but were removed by Martin Luther. The supposed "hidden Gospels" are something ENTIRELY different.

    Read the Old Testament books. I enjoy them, particularly Sirach and Wisdom. Beautiful, beautiful writings, very faith promoting. The book of Tobit has a wonderful love story in it, and the books which are an addition to Daniel has the story of Susanna.

    Be very WARY of any of the so-called "Hidden Gospels." The Deuterocanonicals of the Old Testament were rejected by the Jews for political reasons, but they were later found to be written in Hebrew, just like the other accepted Old Testament canon.

    The "Hidden Gospels" were typically products of the different heretical teachings which were rejected by the Christian church, and for good reason.

    All in all, though, an interesting read!


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  10. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    truthseeker,

    I guess if u really want to read it, no one can stop you. If its just out of interest and for 'reading' sake then i guess its okay. But if you want to 'equate' it to the Bible and say these books are God-breathed, and 'bet your life' on them, then I'll say that's wrong.

    Of course, if you're Catholic, then I guess you'll have to 'accept' those books n follow what "the Church" tells you.

    i dont read them myself for the reasons Psalms 22.3 stated and also becos I'd rather finish reading the Canon books first! ie there's already so much to read and study!
     
  11. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    truthseeker,
    i think the reasons i gave for not beleiving are extremely sound. and what finis said wasnt his opinion, simply why they werent included, and they are true. its not about beleiving finis. he didnt give anything that could be speculated on. (i mean the first part of the post, i understand the second part could be speculated on)

    the fact that their claims are against the claims of my bible (which no one debates is the inspired word of god if their christian) is an undebatable truth.
    and i cant see anyway to get around that. the apocrypha comes agaisnt the word that we all know to be the words of god. they simply do not agree.
    i cant imagine why anyone would or could somehow look past that and think they could be inspired, unless god himself doesnt know whats true, or is a lyer. but we know hes not a lyer, and god does have knowlegde of the truth, so, the apocrypha simply cannot be of god, because it would throw the words that already have and already know to be the truth, into jepordy.

    you may be seeking the truth but that can be dangerous, when someone is extremely hungry, it becomes easy to eat anything that looks tempting.
    (i said that as a brother, not as someone who thinks you need my help, im not anybody)

    i do not know of a flavius, or the other books you named, please enlighten me! just dont get angry if i dont accept them.
    see ya bro or sis, which ever ya are.
     
  12. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    97
    +0
    :) Hello 22.3

    Flavius is the first name of Josephus. His works are massive and I do plan to read them sometime. The other books I mentioned are from the New Testament Apocrypha or the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. Don't worry; you are most kind. I have not participated on forums much; and it's sad that we all seem to get too defensive. The Truth has no problem standing on it's own.

    I feel that alot of these writings were not included in the canon is because some of them are pretty "heavy" and might disturb people more than help or enlighten them. Strong meat for sure. I feel that contained in these writings; is the reason our Lord was accused of blaspheme by the religious leaders of the day; and why the apostles were given the death penalty for what they preached. It might get me stoned in the streets today!!! :D If I have time this weekend, I plan to post a thread on the Creation forum; watch for it!

    In HIS Love
    :pink: truthseeker

    "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find."
    Gospel of Thomas
     
  13. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    The Catholic Bible does not have all of the apocrypha in it, nor does it contain any of the NT noncanonical books. The Catholic and Protestant New Testaments are the same.

    -Chris
     
  14. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    thanks for understanding me truth seeker and not being to proud to atleast listen to my advice without biting back.

    all the apocrypha was thrown out originally.
    then the catholics accepted a number of them.
    i beleive even those books to not be inspired becuase of the reasons that finis dake stated.
    but if even the catholics didnt accept the new testiment ones, why didnt they?

    you could call it heavy reading, but i myself see it as contradictory reading, the book of revelations can get preaty heavy, angels and demons and the lake of fire, demons with horses bodies, mens heads, womens hair, lions teeth, etc. i dont think heavy could be the reason they arent accepted.
    :sorry: well see?
     
  15. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    do you have sufficeint evidence to prove those new testament apocryphal books where actually written by who they say they are?

    pagans fought long and hard with the early christians and one thing they did was wright contradictory books and claim that they were written by true apostles and were inspired. in order to get false teaching into the church and to lead away from the truth. away from the unshakable foundation of the truely inspired books. this would have caused a great split in the early church.

    "as an example,two important early church writers, Tertullian and Jerome, tell us that a presbyter from asia (turkey) published a counterfit epistle that he claimed the apostle Paul had written. Church leaders instantly instigated an ecclesiastical trial to examine this claim. they subsquently convicted this counterfiter and repudiated this spuriuos forgery."
    "THE SIGNATURE OF GOD" by Grant R. Jeffrey.

    certain books were thrown out not only becuase of unbeleivable tales and silly stories, but becuase there were witnesses of the life of Jesus Christ still alive, that knew certain things to not be the truth.

    "All scholars acknowlegde that the New Testament was widely copied and translated into many other languages during the first few decades following the ressurection of Christ."
    "THE SIGNATURE OF GOD" by Grant R. Jeffrey.

    "it is acknowledged even by many liberal scholars that the gosples and epistles were written and widely curculated throughout the christian community of the Roman Empire within 40 or 50 years of the events they describe. this fact is of overwhelming importance in verifying the absolute historical accuracy of these documents. Thousands of people who witnessed Jesus christ's life, teachings, death, and ressurection were still alive when the disciples composed and distributed the gospels and Pauls epistles to the various churches. these carefully copied manuscripts were read in hundreds of christian assemblies every sunday, by millions of gentile and jewish beleivers.
    .... if the the New Testament actually contained factual errors regarding the events of Christ's life, teaching, or the miracles he performed there would have been an enormous split within the early church as witnesses to these historical events would have debated and contested any innacurate historical records"
    "THE SIGNATURE OF GOD" by Grant R. Jeffrey.

    this is another sound reason that certain books were not included in the early church doctrines.
    the apocrypha claims that the cross walked and talked to jesus, witnesses would have contested such claims. as they probably did. the apocrypha claims jesus as a boy made animals from mud, turned people into animals, caused people to die, made his parents blind, and came out of the tomb so tall his head was in the clouds. these claims would have been contested by actuall witnesses to his life. this is one reason the apocryphal books were not included in the original canon of scripture.
     
  16. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    97
    +0
    Gosh 22.3 you've really done your homework! I have read all of the writings of Tertullian that I can find. I have enjoyed them and after reading them I feel that he had much understanding concerning some of the mysteries contained in these unaccepted writings.

    I really do appreciate your genuine concern. As for me, I feel like I have always known the Father. When I "accepted Christ" at the age of 17 (28 yrs ago); it was more like coming home rather than being convinced of a new doctrine. I have always been causious and will continue to be. All things considered; studying these writings has only increased my faith in my Jesus and settled some questions that I have had for a long time.

    Have A GREAT Day!!!

    :pink: truthseeker

    And the Saviour answered, "Blessed is the wise man who sought after the truth, and when he found it, he rested upon it forever and was unafraid of those who wanted to disturb him."
    The Book of Thomas thre Contender
     
  17. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    That doesn't matter at all, most of the canon NT books were not actually written by the traditional authors assigned to them.

    And usually "The Apocrypha" refers to the Old Testament deuterocanonicals. I don't think I've ever seen that term applied to the non-canonical NT writings.

    -Chris
     
  18. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    97
    +0
    :pray: I would like to conclude this thread with some food for thought...

    from Trimorphic Protennoia

    I am Protennoia, the Thought that dwells in the Light. I am the movement that dwells in the All, she in whom the All takes it's stand, the first-born among those who came to be, she who exists before the All.

    I am the Invisible One within the All. It is I who counsel those who are hidden, since I know the All that exists in it. I am numberless beyond everyone. I am immeasurable, ineffable, yet whenever I wish, I shall reveal myself of my own accord. I am the head of the All. I exist before the All, and I am the All, since I exist in everyone.

    I am a Voice speaking softly. I exist from the first. I dwell within the Silence that surrounds every one of them. And it is the hidden Voice that dwells within my, within the incomprehensible, immeasurable Thought, within the immeasurable Silence.

    Then the Son who is perfect in every respect--that is, the Word who originated through that Voice; who proceeded from the height; who has within Him the Name; who is a Light--He revealed the everlasting things, and all the unknowns were known. And those things difficult to interpet and secret, he revealed. And as for those who dwell in Silence with the First Thought, he preached to them. And He revealed Himself to those who dwell in darkness, and he showed Himself to those who dwell in the abyss, and to those who dwell in hidden treasuries, he told ineffable mysteries, and He taught unrepeatable doctrines to all those who became Sons of the Light.

    :pink: truthseeker
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...