• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

The Angel Satan and Free Will

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Squee, May 8, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I see. What the Bible says or what man says...hmmm... :idea: I think I'll go with the Bible. Hey, it's cool if you think science can explain everything and if it doesn't we should go with science's explanation. But that's for you. I'll go with what I know to be the truth.

    Good luck with your ideas.

    God bless.
     
  2. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    : What the Bible says or what man says ...

    Nope. That's your position. I see absolutely no conflict between the Bible and science. Christians like you do, and then tell people they must choose either one or the other. What a sad situation that puts Christian school children in.

    God created Adam and Eve in about 4000 BC (Gen. 2) long after creating the human race. (Gen. 1:26,27)
     
  3. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Like I said bro, good luck with that.

    God bless.
     
  4. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    : good luck with that.

    This way of understanding Genesis has had very "good luck." (Though I prefer to think of it as God's blessing.) It is endorsed by the ASA (American Scientific Affiliation), an organization of some of the world's most highly respected Christian scientists, scholars and Pastors. Their website called Science in Christian Perspective can be viewed here: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/index.html
    You can read an article by Armin Held and Peter Ruest descibing this way of understanding Genesis at the ASA web site here: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1999/PSCF12-99Held.html

    If you are willing to shell out a few bucks for a good book on the subject, Dick Fischer has written one. Dick's first article on religion was published in The Washington Post in 1986. He received his master's degree in theology in 1992. He has published articles in Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, and has reviewed articles for publication in Christian Scholar's Review. He is a member of American Scientific Affiliation, Interdisciplinary Biblical Research Institute, Evangelical Theological Society, and he is listed in Who's Who in Theology and Science. His book entitled The Origins Solution may be ordered from Amazon.com or directly from his publisher here: http://www.orisol.com/
    Several book reviews can also be found there.

    If you need more information just let me know.
     
  5. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0


    What about God? :scratch:

    But, assuming that that's an unfair question and you meant "any being other than God," then how do you explain evil? If no being has free will, is not God the author of evil? Then how is there no darkness in Him at all (1 John 1:5)? :confused:

    This is an age old argument that we certainly won't come to an agreement on. But from our smilies it would seem that it does leave us all a bit confused, and we know this:

    " God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33

    Peace to all who seek it,
    <><
     
  6. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0


    Angels that have fallen are usually called demons in the new testament.

    Peter also said, "if God did not spare teh angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell , putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment ...then the Lord knows how to...hold unrighteous men for the day of judgment while continueing their punishment." (2 P 2:4,9)

    Also, James said, "Even the demons believe [in God], and shudder." (J 2:19)

    Mark testifies, "When [the demon-possessed man] saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" (M 5:6-7)

    Christ did not respond with the compassion he showed penitent sinners, but labeled the spirit "evil" and sent it away.

    Can God redeem the angels? Sure, God can do anything. Does the Bible say He will? No, and I will praise Him for it! :bow:

    <><
     
  7. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0
    So, when God searched this "perfect" human race for a helper suitable for Adam, he couldn't find one? (Genesis 2:18-25) :scratch:

    We're arguing about things we don't understand.

    Romans 3
    <><
     
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Nope. I was including God. God has limited Himself by His own Word. God cannot sin. "Free will" is the ability to make ANY AND ALL choices in a given situation. If faced with the prospect of flooding the earth, could God do it? No. If He did He would have broken His own covenant and lied. That would be a sin. God is limited, but He is only limited by His own Word.

    Well, I'm not sure what you mean by evil. I'll answer the best I can. Evil is the state of our hearts after the fall. It is important, however, to note the significant difference in the spiritual condition of man prior to the fall vice after. Adam's nature was not bound by sin and therefore was able to not sin, as he did for his entire life up until the fall. Evil, as I see it, is nothing more than unrighteousness. God's Word made unrighteousness sinful. It defined that which was in contrast to the righteousness of God. Man, because of his fallen nature, desires to please the flesh. This is contrary to God's righteousness, and therefore evil. God does not make fallen man make the choices he makes. It is merely their nature being "children of wrath."

    Ain't that the truth. :D

    Amen!

    God bless brother.
     
  9. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    Othniel,

    I wrote: God created Adam and Eve in about 4000 BC (Gen. 2) long after creating the human race. (Gen. 1:26,27)

    You answered: So, when God searched this "perfect" human race for a helper suitable for Adam, he couldn't find one? (Genesis 2:18-25)

    Genesis says nothing about God searching the human race for a helper for Adam. It only says that there was no suitable helper found among all the animals which God brought for Adam to name. God created Adam and Eve in Eden to act as a microcosm of the human race He had previously created. Thus it makes perfect sense that Adam's mate would come from his own gene pool, just as the mates of all men God had previously created did.

    So far as your calling the previously created human race or Adam and Eve "perfect," that is not a biblical description. Adam and Eve were created with the ability and the proclivity to sin, just as all people always have been. God used Adam and Eve in paradise to demonstrate the fact that the entire human race, which they were created to serve as representatives of before God, are undeserving of eternal life. That is, without God's forgivness which He offers us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
     
  10. debs

    debs Member

    133
    +0
    Jesus is the first born among many brothers. He didnt come in the form of an angel to save angels, but He took on flesh (a human body) to save those with a body. Man is the only creature with a spirit, soul, and body..His act of salvation only applies to humans..in fact the bible says that angels long to look into these things which means they havent experianced salvation of Christ ...debs
     
  11. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

    79
    +0
    I believe that angels did have free will, as I believe God would not have created them to rebel. They had the choice to leave God, and did. The Bible never mentions salvation for fallen angels or Jesus' blood covering them. If Jesus' blood did cover them, we would have to assume it would only be for those who seek forgiveness, and perhaps the fallen angels, as well as those who in the end times take the mark of the beast, have decided never to seek forgiveness. I see a parallel between the fall of the angels and those who take the mark. Both blatantly, willingly choose to serve Satan instead if God. If those who take the mark are condemned, wouldn't the angels be too?
     
  12. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

    79
    +0
    As far as scientific evidence goes between the age of the earth and all that, I have to stick with the young earth outlook. For starters, carbon dating has been proven to be very ineffective in any long-term dating. That is what most dating is done by. Other dating techniques used such as sediment pile up and natural processes would have been sped up during the flood. The biggest flaw with the Christian+evolution outlook is that there is a need for a first man and woman. From those two humans came all humanity, and inborn sin into all people. Through Adam we have death, through Jesus we have life. It is very important that all human life came from someone who sinned, not a group of people. If there were a lot of people at the time of the fall, then soem humans would have descended from sinful humans and others from pure humans. Would it be fair for other adult humans to pay for one man's sins? No, but it is fair that we have all been born of that original sinner and have inherited sin and death, hence creating a need for another man to save us.
     
  13. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

    105
    +0
    ACHRISTIAN !!!

    I never saw that verse in the light that you just shed! You posted (sorry, I am not sure how the quotes get in blocks)

    First let's read Colossians 1:19 and 20. It tells us, "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Christ Jesus), and through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS, whether things on earth or THINGS IN HEAVEN, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

    I just did a paper on "Satan, who is this person?" And now I will have to ponder a few more things and perhaps rewrite it!

    MANDY...I mentioned the Isa passage in my paper.... my thoughts have always been that this was Satan's name before he fell but then I read more.

    If all would be patient....please allow me to post my paper on here. IT WOULD BE MOST HELPFUL if when you see something that you oppose PLEASE reference scripture as did ACHRISTIAN did on his post.

    I will put the paper on her later tonight - I look forward to replies GOD BLESS OUR UNDERSTANDING
     
  14. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I don't know if anyone is still reading/responding to this thread but I just checked back in and wanted to address this.&nbsp; I have to ask, do you think angels or mankind turned out different from what God planned for?&nbsp; Since some of the angels did rebel do you think that that was not the Will of God?&nbsp; If you think that their rebellion was contrary to the Will of God then you are saying something is outside of the realm of God's control.&nbsp; Then God just becomes this dictator who's Will is nothing more than something to be obeyed or disobeyed at the beckoning of our will.&nbsp; Is God sovereign in that scenario?&nbsp; If there is something, anything, that God cannot control then it is greater than God.&nbsp; Do you believe you or the angels can do anything that God cannot control?&nbsp; Further, you make it sound as if some things, i.e., the angel's rebellion, man's Fall, happen contrary to God's divine plan.&nbsp; If this were true, God is responding to the actions of His creation.&nbsp; Is that how you view God?&nbsp; He seems more of a fortune-teller, someone who can see the future but has no power to ensure it comes out like He planned.&nbsp; Also, how do you reconcile the knowledge that God, before He created the angels and mankind, knew that they would rebel, yet made them anyway?&nbsp; Don't you think that makes His plan kind of foreordained?&nbsp; And, since we are His creation, how is it you think it's possible to thwart God's plan?&nbsp; Do you think it's possible that He could create something that is more powerful than He, something He could not control?

    I know, it's a lot of questions.&nbsp; Sorry about that.

    God bless.
     
  15. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    I don't think that God "planned" what we would choose with out power to choose. He has always been aware of our own dispositions. And the dispositions of his angels. Even lucifer who rebelled. But His knowledge of who we are and what we are going to do, doesn't mean that he is responsible for what we choose, or that he planned it. But he sure did allow it to take place so that we could excersize our freedom to choose.
    And in the end, God does not MAKE us happy. We CHOOSE to find happiness in following, and believing what has been revealed.
     
  16. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Agreed.&nbsp; However, the disposition of the fallen man, or the creation created for the purpose of bringing about God's Will, even by their disobedience, is not a concept that surprises God.

    I also do not believe God is "responsible" for man's disobedience.&nbsp; I do, however, understand that God did create some for one purpose, honor, and some for another, dishonor.

    Again, your freedom to choose is really only freedom to the extent that you are free to choose about those things that you can choose.&nbsp; Hope I didn't confuse you too much there. ;) &nbsp; You are not free to choose to be sinless, or to be God.&nbsp; The fallen man can choose, yes, but he can only choose from a pool of unrighteous choices.

    I forget who said it, maybe Spurgeon or C.S. Lewis, but basically, "Your will is only as free as your strongest desire."&nbsp; Man, be he saved or unsaved, will always act according to his greatest desire.&nbsp; The greatest desire for the unsaved is always going to be a sinful choice.&nbsp; Their act may even be one of kindness.&nbsp; If, however, it is not the love of Christ that compels our actions, it is sinful.

    And in the end, ONLY GOD can make us happy.

    God bless.
     
  17. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    Yeah, estoy de acuerdo contigo hehehehe.
     
  18. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Thanks for making me go to a Spanish to English online dictionary! :D ;)

    Not all of us are linguistically blessed!

    God bless brother!
     
  19. Received

    Received True love waits in haunted attics

    +732
    Christian
    Married
    Well perhaps the trouble with strong belief calvinism or hyper-calvinism is the fact that God seems to disagree even with what He does. Meaning, He decrees one thing but desires another. Lamentations 3:33 would be a good example.

    "For He does not afflict willingly or grieve the sons of men" (NASB)

    This tends to pose a bit of a problem. When I came to Calvinism I had the idea that God (though I look back and wonder how I thought this) picked people not according to any measure, in a way like drawing names out of a hat. Many will say God foreordains and predestined his elect not on the basis of works (Romans 9:11 circulates within my thinking) but simply on His "sovereignty". But is it illogical to say that God's sovereignty is beyond human logistics?

    And yet we ponder over and over upon these subjects, coming so close between free will or predestination, ending with a sense of animosity that divides otherwise loving and compassionate churches. C.S. Lewis once said "the Devil always sends errors into the world in pairs-- pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend a lot of time thinking which is the worse." Fair enough?

    If one were to take a total calvinist viewpoint on life, one would be silly to think himself effective when he prays, as indeed everything is locked in order. If one were to take an arminian viewpoint on life, he would get the idea that the salvation of souls depends not on God's sovereignty, but on chance and place. That is a downright disgusting thought.&nbsp; I quote&nbsp;Lewis again:

    "For every attempt to see the shape of eternity except through the lens of Time destroys your knowledge of Freedom.&nbsp; Witness the doctrine of Predestination which shows (truly enough) that eternal reality is not waiting for a future in which to be real; but at the price of removing Freedom which is the deeper truth of the two...You cannot know eternal reality by a definition."

    &nbsp;Scripture rings clear, destroying the thoughts of us all:

    "For we are God's fellow workers" (1 Corinthians 3:9, NASB)

    Meaning, God works with us to work together to determine the outcome of events.&nbsp; The events may be in the guidance of God, but they are not for us.&nbsp; Thus, our logic cannot grasp His capability.&nbsp; We try to indoctrinate the indoctrinable, and in our lack of sucess we deem the liberals heretics.&nbsp; I say all this as a five point calvinist, in love with the sovereignty of God which appears itself mystery mixed with wonder.

    be blessed,

    John
     
  20. PNJai

    PNJai New Member

    40
    +1
    Christian
    Married
    I think angels do have free will.....
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...