The American Dream

[Eryk]

 

[W Johnson]

USA! #1!

 

[Targaryen]

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Scary...

 

[TBDude65]

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Yeah, it's definitely a problem:
The fading American dream: Trends in absolute income mobility since 1940 | Science
The decline in lifetime earnings mobility in the U.S.: Evidence from survey-linked administrative data | Equitable Growth

 

[Rion]

Due to the way minimum wage falls there, I'm guessing this isn't taking into account inflation.

 

[TBDude65]

Here was another good link from an NPR story on it a few years ago, it contains links to the study being discussed:
Upward Mobility In America

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Due to the way minimum wage falls there, I'm guessing this isn't taking into account inflation.

Based on just running some numbers, it would appear some of those numbers are taking it into account while others aren't...

The college tuition one jumps out as being legit.

For example, in 1980 you could attend a public 4-year state school for around $800. Adjusted for inflation...that would be about $3100 today.

Considering that a 4-year state school can cost you over $30k today, that number isn't too far off...

The medical care number is hit or miss...they're not specific about which aspect of medical care they're referring to, or the facility type. Too many variables in that one just to put a blanket "601% increase" label on it.


The aspect that's the most troubling about the college tuition bit is that not only have the costs grown exponentially, but that it's become exponentially more difficult to get a middle-class wage without one.

 

[hislegacy]

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What country is better?

 

[TBDude65]

What country is better?

Several:
U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility
The figure below is from the link above and is one example. The closer the number to 0, the greater the upward mobility. So all of the countries with a lower value than the US, have greater upward mobility (one can realize "the American Dream" more easily in those countries than in America)

http://www.epi.org/files/2012/snapshot-mobility.png.608

 

[super animator]

Based on just running some numbers, it would appear some of those numbers are taking it into account while others aren't...

The college tuition one jumps out as being legit.

For example, in 1980 you could attend a public 4-year state school for around $800. Adjusted for inflation...that would be about $3100 today.

Considering that a 4-year state school can cost you over $30k today, that number isn't too far off...

The medical care number is hit or miss...they're not specific about which aspect of medical care they're referring to, or the facility type. Too many variables in that one just to put a blanket "601% increase" label on it.


The aspect that's the most troubling about the college tuition bit is that not only have the costs grown exponentially, but that it's become exponentially more difficult to get a middle-class wage without one.

There been some talks regarding an upcoming college financial bubble ready to pop in some point in the future.

 

[hislegacy]

Several:
U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility
The figure below is from the link above and is one example. The closer the number to 0, the greater the upward mobility. So all of the countries with a lower value than the US, have greater upward mobility (one can realize "the American Dream" more easily in those countries than in America)

http://www.epi.org/files/2012/snapshot-mobility.png.608

Apples to oranges. Find the same figures per item in the original OP graphic. Then we can talk

You'll note that not one of those 'better countries' has people trying to immigrate to in vast numbers. Besides the refugee crisis in Europe.

 

[TBDude65]

I see an alert that you quoted the post, but the quote appears to have enveloped whatever you wrote and is not visible

 

[hislegacy]

It is now

 

[TBDude65]

Apples to oranges. Find the same figures per item in the original OP graphic. Then we can talk

Do what? The subject is "The American Dream" which is the trait of upward mobility. There are a number of studies that measure upward mobility and compare the US to other nations (exactly answering the question you asked).

 

[hislegacy]

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Do what? The subject is "The American Dream" which is the trait of upward mobility. There are a number of studies that measure upward mobility and compare the US to other nations (exactly answering the question you asked).

See the OP graphic? Match those numbers for other countries. If you can't, that's ok. But until you do, I don't believe there is common ground to speak of.

Additionally the American Dream is still alive and well for those who do things right, work hard and seek to advance.

If you don't know, I am an immigrants son.

 

[TBDude65]

Apples to oranges. Find the same figures per item in the original OP graphic. Then we can talk

You'll note that not one of those 'better countries' has people trying to immigrate to in vast numbers. Besides the refugee crisis in Europe.

"You'll note that not one of those 'better countries' has people trying to immigrate to in vast numbers. Besides the refugee crisis in Europe."

You'll note that the subject at hand is Upward Mobility (aka, the American Dream) and measures of it indicate that the US is not the home of the American Dream any longer. As to what constitutes a "better" country overall, that is entirely subjective. But what constitutes a better country with respect to upward mobility is actually much clearer and easier to demonstrate, and that is indicated in the studies the studies I have linked to (including the one example from the graphic from just one of them).

 

[TBDude65]

See the OP graphic? Match those numbers for other countries. If you can't, that's ok. But until you do, I don't believe there is common ground to speak of.

Additionally the American Dream is still alive and well for those who do things right, work hard and seek to advance.

If you don't know, I am an immigrants son.

"See the OP graphic? Match those numbers for other countries. If you can't, that's ok. But until you do, I don't believe there is common ground to speak of."

What I linked to is relevant with respect to the subject at hand. The data in the graphic are only some of the factors used in those studies. Did you even open the links and look through them?

"Additionally the American Dream is still alive and well for those who do things right, work hard and seek to advance."

Did anyone here claim that upward mobility is dead in the US? No, so I don't know why you'd even make this comment. The point is that upward mobility in the US (aka: The American Dream) is NOT as widely available as it once was (and hasn't really been anywhere near the same since the 80's), and that there are other countries that surpass the US when it comes to the "American Dream" (and when comparing individual states to other countries, many states are even worse off).

"If you don't know, I am an immigrants son."

This is true (that we are descended from immigrants, not necessarily that we are all 1st generation immigrants) for everyone living in the US who isn't descended from Native Americans.

 

[mark46]

See the OP graphic? Match those numbers for other countries. If you can't, that's ok. But until you do, I don't believe there is common ground to speak of.

Additionally the American Dream is still alive and well for those who do things right, work hard and seek to advance.

If you don't know, I am an immigrants son.

???
Upward mobility is often used as a measure of the equivalent of the American Dream. We might use polls with regard how happy folks are with their society. We might use polls with regard to how happy folks are with their jobs and prospects. We might use measures of well-being or of health. In all of these, the US lags far behind many European countries.

What would you consider reasonable items to poll to decide if a country were "better" or had a better dream for their people?

 

[hislegacy]

All I am asked by is to substantiate the claim by matching the numbers in the OP.

Why is that so difficult to do?

This isn't rocket science, specific numbers were offered as validation. I am asking a comparison based on the same criteria.

Evidently that can't be done.

 

[TBDude65]

All I am asked by is to substantiate the claim by matching the numbers in the OP.

Why is that so difficult to do?

This isn't rocket science, specific numbers were offered as validation. I am asking a comparison based on the same criteria.

Evidently that can't be done.

Did you read the articles in the links? (there are numerous articles in them, it's not just one paper per link)