The 7 "Churches" Do they represent 7 covenants

[TasManOfGod]

I believe they do and I would be willing to share how that all fits together.
I would like to tell you a whole lot of things all at once but lets just work slowly through it.
Most commentaries say that the "seven churches" are indeed christian churches of that early time or represent christian churches or eras from that time to this or some even say they represent contempory christian churches of today. There is no consensus really on this issue except to say that they are "christian".
It always seemed strange to me as to why these seven were spoken of /to and seemingly given so much importance by the risen Christ when apart from the Ephesus assembly no recognition of the others as assemblies had previously been mentioned in the history of the early believers.
I considered that the "bringing into line" of some wayward groups of people just didn't seem to "fit" the whole thrust of the rest of the Revelation which seemed to be exclusively end-time events - the end chapter of God's book of life.
Didn't Jesus establish the Church with Himself as the head and the five -fold ministry for the purpose of equipping the body for the work of the ministry(Eph.4:11-12).
Why then involment in this "personalised way? This to me was like Jesus becoming the head and the body. This troubled me - not because I though He had no right to do such a thing. Of course He did. Without His finished work at Calvary there would be no Church. My thoughts were that it was not His character to seemingly go back on His word: "I am the vine, you are the branches"
Questions kept coming to me which I had no answer for and I decided to seek the wisdom of God - in fact for a whole six months on this subject alone.

(more to come)

 

[TasManOfGod]

Why was there seven seeming very important angels assigned to seven seemingly unimportant assemblies? (I just couldn't accept the commonly held belief that these were the "church"s pastors)
Was the seven golden lampstands that represented the assemblies the same lampstand of the tabernacle of Moses? If so what made the connection ?
What was the meaning of all the allegorical language that the Lord had used in the "letters"?

continuing....

 

[TasManOfGod]

mmm interesting responses

Could someone say why they don't respond to this topic
Is it because you think the subject is: unimportant ? contraversal? intimidating? not negotiable? something else ... I would be interested

blessing
Tas

 

[Blessed2003]

Umm, I honestly don't have a clue. I am very interested though. Tell us what you think..Or me..
Thanks

 

[Philip]

Why was there seven seeming very important angels assigned to seven seemingly unimportant assemblies?

Why would you call these churches "unimportant"? If God assigns angels to individual Christians, then why not assign them to Churches as well?

(I just couldn't accept the commonly held belief that these were the "church"s pastors)

Why can't you accept this explanation?

 

[TasManOfGod]

oops

 

[TasManOfGod]

Why would you call these churches "unimportant"? If God assigns angels to individual Christians, then why not assign them to Churches as well?

OK bad choice of words on my part I suppose I didn't actually mean that what was writen was unimportant but tht it was interpruted as being writen to some small (unimportant in the scheme of things) assemblies.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I'm guessing no replies cause it's an iffy subject. No one really knows.

The old testament prophets predicted that the messiah would ride on an *** (Donkey)... No one really paid that any attention. He wouldn't ride on a donkey would He?----------------- Well we all know He did. It was a literal prophecy. Maybe just like all the ones in Revelations?

I think the 7 churches represent 7 Jewish churches. maybe the ones in Asia who Paul said have "turned away from the truth"... I don't know.
I do believe that scripture might prove that revelation was written before 70ad, and possibily before Pauls prison letters. Paul referenced the Jerusalum which is above. I can only find it refered to like that in revelations, but i could be wrong.... So, if that's the case it must refer to 7 churches.

Now, they could figuratively represent covenants, BUT... as Romans says, all the covenants belong to Israel and none of it would apply today (which i don't think it does)..

7 is just God number.... there are 7 days in a week, 7 vials in revelations, 7 years in a prophetic week, maybe 7 called out group of people too. After all, that is what a church is right? A group of people with a mission.

The book is a Jewish book, with Jewish traditions and hints written all over it. So, i would agree the 7 angels, 7 candlesticks would have to meann something and tie into the OT tabernacle somehow.

So, i think they refer to 7 actual jewish churches, probably will be around during the tribulation just before...... but i could be wrong.

Didn't Jesus establish the Church with Himself as the head and the five -fold ministry for the purpose of equipping the body for the work of the ministry(Eph.4:11-12).

In short, I do not think Jesus came to establish the church (as we know it today)... Jesus came to earth as a KING, as a Jewish Messiah and He was sent only to the Jews... not US, nor the church... In the end, there is going to be a wedding feast right?? There will be a bride, a bridegroom, some guests etc.. etc.. all those are a called out group of people. or simply a church.

Eph 4:11-13
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
KJV

Are we the Body of Christ? Are we called to be saints? Some would say yes, but i kinda see it another way... Hopefully i can explain.

Eph 1:1
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
KJV

First off Ephesians starts off adressed to two different groups of people. The saints AND the faithful.... AND ready for this........

Eph 2:20-22
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

So at this point we see TWO groups of people, saints and faithful... Who are growing into a Holy Temple in the Lord.... Built upon ONE foundation... All houses have only ONE foundation, once laid,,, you move on.... Now verse 22 gets a little tricky....

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

At first glance one might just accept that he/she is a Holy Temple, which would be an honor.. BUT,,, if we are living with the saints who become the Temple, we might miss OUR calling... Paul says: "In Whom ye ALSO...."

so, In Christ all those who were built upon the foundation of the Apostles are a "building fitly framed together " which is growing into a "Temple"...
In Christ we are ALSO being built up to be a.......... "Habitation (or Abode) of God through the Spirit"...

Sounds like two different callings... one of which is a Temple, which maybe has something to do with the tabernacle of Moses and Revelation... It might be interesting to research the temple... And one which is maybe,, the room where God will dwell... What could "habitation of God" mean?

Sorry, I'm just rambling on and on... Please feel free to label me a heretic and take me out back and stone me if i'm crazy...

 

[Philip]

I'm not sure I know what you mean

 

[TasManOfGod]

paul Thank you for your reply
I cant answer all you raised just yet but as time permits I will answer each point you raised
blessing
Tas

 

[@@Paul@@]

I'm not sure I know what you mean

Me neither...!!

I guess i'm saying that I believe they represent 7 jewish churches which have something to do with God ultimate plan for Israel and this "Temple" or "Tabernacle" which is/was/will be again built upon the foundation as noted in Ephesians...

I see our calling as totally different so i don't feel they would refer to us today...

 

[Blessed2003]

Didn't the church at Philadelphia refer to us, meaning the ones after Christ?
I thought Philadelphia means "Brotherly Love"
I would like to learn if everyone can put their heads together maybe we can all benefit. And Paul you make some excellent points, but what could "our" calling possibly be if it is different. Doesn't the bible imply that "we" are the temple...please tell me why you feel this way?

 

[Philip]

Didn't the church at Philadelphia refer to us, meaning the ones after Christ?
I thought Philadelphia means "Brotherly Love"

But it was also the name of a city in Asia. I'm not sure we should understand the word to mean anything other than the name of the city.

 

[Blessed2003]

I hate to sound skeptical, but how do we know what to take literally and what not to. The Holy Spirit is here to lead us into all Truth, so why do we keep learning yet never seeming to come to a knowledge of the Truth?????? Are we missing something, or are we looking for signs when we should not. I struggle with Revelation.
(ALso, prophesy, as someone mentioned, is not taken literally until it comes to pass, when it could be quite literal.)
For instance the passage in Revelation addressed to the "Philadelphians" Jesus said He would keep them or (him/her) the "angel" from the hour of temptation that would come on the whole world???
Ok, I am getting off track, carry on, maybe I'll learn something.....

 

[Philip]

I hate to sound skeptical, but how do we know what to take literally and what not to. The Holy Spirit is here to lead us into all Truth, so why do we keep learning yet never seeming to come to a knowledge of the Truth??????

I think the meaning is already know. Unfortunately, there are those who do not want to hear it since it contradicts some of there doctrines.

Are we missing something, or are we looking for signs when we should not. I struggle with Revelation.

What signs are you looking for?

For instance the passage in Revelation addressed to the "Philadelphians" Jesus said He would keep them or (him/her) the "angel" from the hour of temptation that would come on the whole world???

The letter to the Philadelphians is not prophesy, although it does contain a promise. Christ promised to (and did) keep them from the Roman persecutions.

 

[Blessed2003]

I agree with the first response. It is hard to have our "doctrines" challenged with something that does not support it.
What signs am I looking for? Umm, that does imply I am huh? Well, I am always checking and double checking to make sure I am believing the truth and not a lie, even if it goes against every thing I have ever been taught. ( so far, it is a bit contradictory)
Oh, so if I knew my history better I would know that? OK, I have too many questions, I should just observe..........

 

[@@Paul@@]

(ALso, prophesy, as someone mentioned, is not taken literally until it comes to pass, when it could be quite literal.)

Exactly! all the prophecies about Christ coming were fullfiled literally! The riding on an A$$... being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver... all of them, 30 + i think. so why would the prophesies to come be any different? Just like Salvation by Grace alone. it's to easy so we try to rationalize in our little human minds and come up with what we think it should mean... Which is wrong.

but what could "our" calling possibly be if it is different. Doesn't the bible imply that "we" are the temple...please tell me why you feel this way?

This is a tough one to explain. Paul wrote 7 letters after the events in Acts took place.. There are 7 during acts and 7 after.... The work of the Holy Spirit? Both Ephesians and Colosians talk about OUR calling which is actually refer to HIS {Gods} calling...

Eph 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
KJV

Now, no one has ever been "blessed with ALL spiritual blessings" in heavenly places before... The blessings promised before were earthly blessings... which had to do with an earthly kingdom... A hint of something new?
the end of Ephesians 2 clearly describes TWO different spheres of blessings. A Temple and a Habitation.... A temple where God dwelt sometimes... once a year? maybe a little more... even then, He only dwelt behind the veil... But it's temporary... it's only a place of worship.. Look at the Greek word used for temple:
1. used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2. any heathen temple or shrine
metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ

Now a look at the Greek word used for Habitation, it means 1. an abode, a habitation . now our english word Adobe means:
somebody’s home: the house or other place where a particular person lives

Now you tell me: Is a place of worship the same as a permenant residence?now, this greek word used for habitation is,oddly enough, only used TWICE in the entire bible. Once in Ephesians (as mentioned before), and once in revelations 18:2...
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

You tell me,,, are they the same thing?

 

[Blessed2003]

well, it certainly does not appear that way does it? I will have to think and pray on this one..... Thanks.....

 

[Bulldog]

The seven churches ae:

Rev 2:1 "to the church in Ephesus"
Rev 2:8 "to the church in Smyrna"
Rev 2:12 "to the church in Pergamum"
Rev 2:18 "to the church in Thyatira"
Rev 3:1 "to the church in Sardis"
Rev 3:7 "to the church in Philadelphia"
Rev 3:14 "to the church in Laodicea"

(emph. added)

 

[@@Paul@@]

well, it certainly does not appear that way does it? I will have to think and pray on this one..... Thanks.....

And prayer is always good... God, in His almighty wisdom, even gave us the prayer to pray, just like He made the first sacrafice for sin for Adam. All we have to do is reach out and take it...

Eph 1:16-19
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
KJV

Col 4:2-5
2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;
3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
4 That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.
5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
KJV


Sorry, i got a little off topic on this post.