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The 4th Commandment had to go, and it did.

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by Talking Donkey N22, Jun 10, 2017.

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  1. John 1720

    John 1720 Harvest Worker Supporter

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    • John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
    :) Happy Lord's day sir! Just for the record I'm a Southern Baptist and what I am telling you is nothing new from the Word of God and is classic Christianity. I find it humorous that you want to report me for evangelizing, since I have been involved with the Lord's Great Commission here and abroad for years. So, with respect to your threat, I would say go ahead and report away - knock yourself out. :)

    Yes, of course Zacchaeus was an Israelite but you miss the point. He was also a sinner who wanted to know Christ and was truthfully ready to repent of his corruption in order that he might have fellowship with Christ. Jesus called him a son of Abraham not because he was an Israelite but because he truly was a child of the promise through Christ. As I said before it was Christ who fulfilled the Abrahamic promise, although you don't seem to get that. All the Pharisees were also Israelites and some self-proclaimed themeselves 'sons of Abraham' in the but at one point Jesus called many of them 'sons of the devil'.

    • John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
    So, you are mistaken in your conclusion sir. Jesus didn't give this title to just any Israelite according to the flesh, but only sons according to the Spirit. Paul speaks of this over and over many times - though you seem not to understand that we too are sons and daughters of Abraham. We are co-joined with historical Israel in Christ - there are not two trees but one in Christ. As Jesus announced to the Jews who wanted nothing to do with the hated Gentiles whom they despised.
    • Matthew 8:11 “And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
    One kingdom of heaven my friend and only one table set by the Lord of Glory. At first you seemed to think there were two trees; perhaps a kingdom for Israel and one for Gentiles? I am glad you at least understand there is one tree in Christ; even if you still do not understand the natural branches are spiritual Israel, which is rooted in Christ. That is not evangelizing Judaism that is only trying to help you understand the principle of why Jesus defines that salvation is of the Jews. This should be joy for Gentiles in that Christ has made you part of the salvation and history of His people by grafting you into that Olive tree that Paul speaks of. Jesus is inextricably tied to that promise made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and has made Gentiles from every nation His. I'm Irish-American myself, my ancestors probably bloody Vikings but here I am a child of God through Christ and a son of Abraham through the promise. This knowledge does not change a single thing about the Gospel but it is a theological fact you should be aware of. The promise of Christ is through the path of Genesis 12:3 on and carries on through God's cultivation of Israel to you a wild olive branch!

    Cheers in Christ, John 17:20


     
  2. John 1720

    John 1720 Harvest Worker Supporter

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    Happy Lord's Day Sir,
    So your points and mine don't become obfuscated let's take them in packets. This is better since you appear to have many objections but are confused about what I said. Let's take 3 points at a time and then move on to the others. I will number them as such:

    1. Firstly sir, Abraham was the grandfather of Israel not the great grandfather, as you state above. You will notice in Genesis that God made Abrahamic promise, "the blessing to be a blessing" also through Isaac and Israel (Jacob). I made this point previously but you have overlooked this once again.
      • Now the covenant between God and man was then established with Abraham's progeny, which was specifically Isaac the father of Israel.
      • And we see Isaac passing on the blessing to Israel (Jacob) as well as God showing vision through the Divine Dream
    • Conclusion the blessing was specifically passed to Israel (Jacob) through Abraham, according to the promise.
    • The tree of promise then is from Abraham to Israel.
    2. I also never implied Israel was the root but that the tree was rooted in Jesus, the Christ, who was the promised seed to Abraham. Please reread the post sir and you will clearly see you have misquoted me.
    The Abrahamic Blessing which came down to us through Israel
    The implication of God’s desire to provide His redemptive blessing through His chosen vessel, Abram, in this passage but this also occurs later in Scripture through Isaac, and Jacob, [ii] God’s prophets, apostles, and missionaries [iii] – all through the means of the Holy Spirit and Christ. So when God promises Abram, “I will bless you,” it is implied that the means by which this would occur would be through God working in and through Abram.

    But again the promise was not just to Abraham but his progeny because God further promised –“I will make you a great nation”. So Abram is promised he will be the father of a great nation but what nation is that? The Hebrew word is transliterated as ‘gowy’, which is translated as the word ‘ethnos’ in the Greek Septuagint. The word ‘ethnos’ infers diverse people groups and it Biblical usage usually refers to non-Hebrews. These people (children of Abraham) would forever represent the mission of the God of the Universe. So Abraham and his children would therefore be blessed and would become a blessing to all peoples. God put His stamp of approval on Abraham and his people by adding “I will bless those who bless you” and curse him who curses you”.
    3. Yes, I assure you I have thoroughly studied both the Old and New Testament brother. And "no", I clearly said the first-fruits were the Apostles, who all happened to be Israeli. You really are not receiving and comprehending what I am posting very well in order to have this discussion, as this appears to be a pattern with you. The nation God would make from Abram and his progeny was therefore purposefully "set apart" (which is the definition of holy) by God in order to be a blessing by which “all the families of the earth shall bless themselves”.

        • The first fruits of the Church were all Jewish, including the apostles, disciples, and the 5000 jews they added to their number at Pentecost.
        • The root of course is Jesus, who self described Himself as the true Vine and His disciples as the branches.
    I am also not the one who said "salvation is of the Jews" - that quote happens to be our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus! Romans 11 just verifies that for you.

    That ends the 3 points up for discussion

    To Summarize the concept, which is basically taught to most Christian missionaries in Perspectives on the Worldwide Christian movement, I conclude below. This is a course I highly recommend to you, as we are really just touching the surface here with respect to the modis operandi of God's Will for all mankind.
    In conclusion then, especially with respect to the revelation of His promise to Abram, God shows His deep desire to bless Abraham and his progeny. We must ask ourselves whether Abraham’s progeny was spiritual or physical. While it is certainly true the physical line down through Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David, all the way to Christ is one component of the blessing, it really is Abraham’s spiritual progeny that clearly gets the exclamation point! [iv] God’s promise therefore is to bless all peoples through His call in the Abrahamic promise. By Abram’s obedience he, as well as his spiritual progeny, are destined to be in union with God’s great purpose to bless all peoples. Abram’s acceptance of God’s gracious call seals the promise from the Lord that He will bless all peoples of the earth through him. So it is administered through Abram’s peculiar people group by God’s own design. [v] The passage also implies that God will also bring about righteous justice and judgment by the same means.[vi] How one might ask does it imply both? It is because only the people of obedient faith are truly the sons and daughters of Abraham. [vii] Those who strive against Abram, His chosen representative whom God Himself has called, are in essence really striving against God’s calling, God’s promise, and God’s work that He has ordained through His chosen vessel. How so one might ask? It is because in striving against them they are actually striving against God’s ordained Will and desire to bring about His Divine promise and blessing to all the earth. Two corollaries in the Bible make this abundantly clear that God’s faithful followers are not only the true sons of Abram but that the Lord also considers what is done to these servants is the same as doing it to the Lord Himself.


    o Gal 3:7 therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
    o Matthew 25:40 “And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’


    Gen 26:4 God tells Isaac
    "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

    [ii] Genesis 27:29-30 God blesses Jacob through the hand of Isaac
    Let peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, and let your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, and blessed be those who bless you!" Now it happened, as soon as Isaac had finished blessing Jacob, and Jacob had scarcely gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting.

    [iii] Galatians 3:12-14
    Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree) that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    [iv] Luke 3:8
    “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

    John 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

    Gal 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

    Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

    [v] 1 Peter 2:9-10
    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    [vi] Jeremiah 33:15 Christ is that seed!
    ‘In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David a Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth

    John 16:7-11 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    [vii] John 8:39
    They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

    Romans 2:29
    but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

    Romans 4:12,16
    … and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all….

    Galatians 3:7
    Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

    Galatians 3:29
    And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Perspectives on the World Christian Movement


    May the Lord Bless, John 17:20
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  3. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Circumstantial evidence, maybe at best.

    bugkiller
     
  4. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I've never thought otherwise. Remember, Jesus' mission was to the House of Israel.
     
  5. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    So if one is not quoted or otherwise addressed they should not participate in a public discussion. Since I have been here longer than you, just where does that leave you?

    bugkiller
     
  6. John 1720

    John 1720 Harvest Worker Supporter

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    Yes, He was Israel's promised Messiah, the long awaited Christ, but the Father made the provision to graft we Gentiles into that tree of promise as well, and so the Gospel must go to the ends of the earth and will circle back to Israel.
    http://withinreachglobal.org/awesome-podcasts-with-back-to-jerusalem-and-within-reach-global/

    • Isaiah 49:6 Indeed He says,
    • ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
    • I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’
    In Christ, John 17:20
     
  7. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    So teach the law. Just do not try and teach it to the righteous. Paul says the law is not for the righteous in I Tim 1:9. I really do not care what my position if any is in heaven and even on earth for that matter. Vanity is sin. Since it is obvious that Jesus wanted people to only teach the law, why did He commission Paul to do exactly that? Paul's letters to the church and disciples do exactly that. Does Paul teach others to live a wicked lifestyle? No! Do I? No!

    Until heaven and earth pass away has a qualifier you seem to miss - until all is fulfilled. That is made clear in Lk 24:44 allowing jots and tittles of the law you talk about to pass. Jeremiah said it would and Jesus testified it in fact had not to mention at least both Gospels of John and Luke.

    Show where Jesus said no longer teach and keep the law, no problem -

    10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Jn 15
    Are you calling willful sin not keeping the 4th commandment? Wow especially since you are guilty. Read it, see and weep. Oh never mind, you will not understand what is written there.
    According to my Bible Jeremiah said we would be and the NT has quite few verses saying we are free from the law issued at Sinai. What you are saying is we are not free to sin. I can agree with that. NTL the NC is not based on performance of the recipient. Salvation is a free gift. Required performance is work and rewarded with death. Rom 6:23 You should note that eternal life is through Jesus, not the law or the law and Jesus.
    Agreed. the law is a single indivisible unit as NT Jews wrote.
    Attendance and donating shows one supports and endorses what they teach.

    bugkiller
     
  8. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    You free to call me on any thing you think is a proof text. Hope you do soon.

    What law goes on our heart? Can you quote or reference it?

    Anyone who teaches the christian is too keep the law is ignoring much of the NT.
    Those who teach and require the law.
    From I Tim 1 -

    3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

    4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

    5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

    6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

    7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

    You decide for yourself who the Christian is to be aware of. Galatians has a great passage on this too.
    II Pet 3 has a few things to say on this.
    Sure, no problem -

    8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

    9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. I Tim 1

    Do any posters in this thread qualify as lawless? It is not for the righteous (Christian).

    bugkiller
     
  9. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Are you contextualizing? Sure the word Isaac is in verse 28.. Paul is not talking about Isaac. Paul is talking about covenants. Paul is addressing the supernatural and God's sovereign will by mentioning Isaac.

    Now about Isaac not participating in the same promise, I can not tell because there is nor record in the Bible of him doing so. Simply by being a direct descendent of Abraham guarantees nothing.

    bugkiller
     
  10. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Yes, I agree, but the gospel was preached to the House of Israel first. Cornelius and his family were the first Gentiles.
     
  11. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Yes I am fully aware of who Isaac is. Isaac is not the subject of Paul's allegory being addressed by me. John wants to rabbit trail the issue to promote one has to be an Israeli if they are a christian. I think I did read he attends a baptist church. I think I also read he does not agree with their theology. Why attend?

    bugkiller
     
  12. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    You are here trying to teach and have to be quoted the Bible to know what is being referred to even in the Gospels? I do not allow myself to be spoon fed. When you say something I know exactly what you are saying. I ask only to get you to post proof because I know there is none. Maybe why so many of my questions and verses are not responded to.

    I quote a verse like Jn 13:34 and akd a question how can anyone comply with the verse and violate the law? The response I get is I do not know what you are talking about. Really? How unloving of me.

    bugkiller
     
  13. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Please explain the verse.

    bugkiller
     
  14. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    The covenant you are talking about by-passes the covenant made with Israel. Isaac does not participate in the NC covenant simply by being in the linage of Abraham. The NC is the fulfillment of the promise covenant made to Abraham. The NC is not that covenant.

    The NC is not spoke of as refreshed anywhere in the Bible.

    bugkiller
     
  15. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    There are two covenants given to Abraham in Genesis. Since you asked listed I will let him tell you.

    bugkiller
     
  16. 1John2:4

    1John2:4 Well-Known Member

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    If you please provide me the post number I will reply, this week I am very busy with work so it may take some time
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  17. JLB777

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    Abraham, is a Gentile, and walked with the Lord as our example; the life of faith.

    7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9

    Abraham was justified by faith, the same as we are.


    Bypasses Israel?

    Makes no sense!

    We are grafted into the Israel of God, in Christ, and become partakers of the root and fatness of the natural Olive tree and are supported by it's roots, which is the Covenant the Lord made with Abraham before he became flesh.

    • you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Romans 11:17

    16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:16-23


    Jesus Himself is the true Israel, and those whose faith is in Him, are a part of the Israel of God.

    Neither circumcision or uncircumcision mean anything, for Jew or Gentile, but the cross and becoming a new creation in Christ Jesus.

    14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16




    JLB
     
  18. listed

    listed are you?

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    1. Ok, you're correct on Abraham being the grandfather. I got in a hurry and counted Jacob twice' once as Jacob and once as Israel. Sorry. What you're trying to do is call the root natural blood lines.This is a spiritual issue. It isn't my body of flesh that becomes a son of Abraham. No where does God intend to make converts to Christianity Israeli in any form. The promise to Abraham is the nations would be blessed, not become one nation. So the issue becomes the bringing others under the jurisdiction of the law covenant issued to Israel. The prophets tell about the covenant law coming to an end. The NT bears this out as being current. We (the Christian) now have and many don't realize is this NC isn't based on obedience to requirements (works). The covenant we now have is a unilateral covenant requiring nothing in the way of performance. The righteousness all pro law people are requiring is self righteousness. One of the underlying goals is a perfect society (utopia). Awesome idea. I love that idea too. I'm also very realistic in my approach to life and have some basic and realistic understanding about human nature. This self righteousness the pro law people try to achieve isn't the righteousness God requires and can never be achieved through following a rule list. The number one goal of the law covenant issued to Israel is legal condemnation to justly punish.
      • Now the covenant between God and man was then established with Abraham's progeny, which was specifically Isaac the father of Israel.[/quote]If this were true there's no need of the NT. At best the NC was promised.
        No we don't see Isaac passing on the promise of blessing other nations to Israel.
    • No, the promise of blessing other nations was brought through Israel manifested in Jesus. Israel blesses no nation in the sense of the promise given to Abraham.
    • The tree of promise then is from Abraham to Israel.[/quote]No because of Genesis 3:15. Redemption was first promised to Adam.
    If this were so we'd not be having this discussion.. I responded to your further pushing this issue you claim to not be pushing with your comments quoted in this post.
    Abraham isn't the Root and neither is Israel.
    Icould take you to task overt he word ethnos from which we derive our English word ethnic but is would serve no real purpose except to argue.
    And you're doing your best to push Judaism over on the unsuspecting by your appearance of superior knowledge. Many won't seea nd understand this. That isi ndeed most unfortunate.
    So you continue to try and derail me and others into Judaism with these kinds of statements. You won't get me.
    For me my response is no to organized religion. I don't beleieve their full deal. Don't get me wrong, they do plenty good and reach some with enough of the truth to cause acceptance of Jesus as Savior. It's just thier over all gaol of manipulation isn't for me.
    True.
    True again.
    True and really applies to the first covenant promise of Abraham about earthly descendants. I would agree this could also be applied tot he spiritual descendants of faith. That however in context isn't what your verse is talking about.
    Unfortunately that isn't all or even the purpose Christ redeems mankind from. I give you Genesis 3:15 as proof.
    Lots of Bible verses. Some contribute nothing to the discussion while other decry your position.
     
  19. Talking Donkey N22

    Talking Donkey N22 Member

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    The law states to pray AFTER we eat (Deu 8:10). We pray before we eat because we want to put God first, not by command, but out of love. That's how the bride of Christ feels and does business. Same thing for the agenda for the week. The bride of Christ cann't wait for the end of the week (as the command says), she has to put God first, in spite of the command.

    Like I said, the 4th commandment had to go. That is why Jesus worked on most Sabbath days during his ministry (of the 42 times the word sabbath appears in the gospels, 33 of them is to show Jesus working on Sabbath days). God the Father and God the Son both worked on Sabbath days 2,000 years ago (John 5:16-18). The 4th commandment states clearly that whosoever works ANY WORK on the day of rest, shall surely be put to death (Exo 31:13-18). That is why the HS stated that Jesus broke the Sabbath rest (John 5:16-18).

    TD
     
  20. listed

    listed are you?

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    There are 2 covenants made with Abraham. The first is about Canaan in Genesis 12. The second and one of interest is in 22:17-18. This is in the form of a promise specifically in regard to Jesus, the Redeemer. Its related to the only son bit at the first of the chapter.

    The covenant of grace is actually promised made more clear and foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-33. This promised covenant of grace isn't exclusive to Israel as seen in Acts or the original promise of Genesis 3:15. Of course we see its full manifestation in the NT.
     
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