The 4th Commandment had to go, and it did.

[1stcenturylady]

Yay found your post I agree with you Paul says "until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in". Another prophecy, I'm sure you are already aware. Isaiah 42 that speaks of salvation for the gentiles. And of course you know John 10:16, Jer 16:19 Amos 9.

Did you understand the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9? Verse 25, the prince, is the one who destroyed the temple in 70 AD which is, of course, a fulfillment of the prophecy by Jesus, then there is a space of time of wars, and at last the 70th week - one remaining week, which is the last 7 years of earth where the Antichrist is revealed and then Jesus comes again.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No it isn't. See Matthew 11:28-30 where Jesus offers something 7th day sabbath keepers didn't have.

Yes, I know that. But just as the Father rested from His works, so did Jesus rest from His work when He said, "it is finished." Now, followers of Jesus do not habitually keep a day of the week, we rest in Jesus continually. That is the "entering into My rest" of Hebrews 4, where we can come boldly to the throne of grace.

 

[1John2:4]

I will ask the same question on this thread as other threads, where in scripture do you find where observing the Sabbath or any rituals of the old covenant are salvational either to old Israel or Christians?

If you like me cannot find anyplace that tells us we will loose our eternal reward for not observing Sabbath why do some denominations spend millions of dollars trying to get converts to join something that God does not require?

Don't know anyone on this thread that has said that keeping Sabbath is how one gets saved. A person only gets saved through our Messiah.

 

[1John2:4]

Did you understand the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9? Verse 25, the prince, is the one who destroyed the temple in 70 AD which is, of course, a fulfillment of the prophecy by Jesus, then there is a space of time of wars, and at last the 70th week - one remaining week, which is the last 7 years of earth where the Antichrist is revealed and then Jesus comes again.

I disagree, I don't think the Messiah is the one who distroyed the temple in this prophecy. (I am using NKJV btw to avoid any confusion.) Daniel 9:25 Messiah the Prince is capitalized. In 26 the prince to come, the one who distroyed the temple, is not capitalized. We also know from history Rome distroyed the temple in 70 ad and the Nazarines fled to the mountains just as Yeshua prophecied. Matthew 24:16, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:21

Re reading your post I think we are saying the same thing
I am not sure if you are posting this regarding the 7000 year theroy

 

[1John2:4]

Maybe they're following fleshly desires. The style of worship is very exhilarating in emotions and endomorphisms. Running exhibits much the same thing.

Wow why the distain towards Messianics? I choose to follow that doctrine because after reading the Bible several times and prayer and study I understood that God's instuctions are good, they are for our own good, that it will go well with us. Why would David meditate on them if they are bad, when did anyone say they were over in the Bible? Still can't find those chapters and verses. I heard a ton of strange docrines from the grace camp like " Jesus kept the commandments perfectly so now we do not have to" or "fullfilled means done away with" even after Jesus said Think not I have come to distroy the law and the prophets.

 

[1John2:4]

Yes, I know that. But just as the Father rested from His works, so did Jesus rest from His work when He said, "it is finished." Now, followers of Jesus do not habitually keep a day of the week, we rest in Jesus continually. That is the "entering into My rest" of Hebrews 4, where we can come boldly to the throne of grace.

Lady - I am not sure that is what it says in Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I disagree, I don't think the Messiah is the one who distroyed the temple in this prophecy. (I am using NKJV btw to avoid any confusion.) Daniel 9:25 Messiah the Prince is capitalized. In 26 the prince to come, the one who distroyed the temple, is not capitalized. We also know from history Rome distroyed the temple in 70 ad and the Nazarines fled to the mountains just as Yeshua prophecied. Matthew 24:16, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:21

Re reading your post I think we are saying the same thing
I am not sure if you are posting this regarding the 7000 year theroy

No, no, no. This is 70 AD, I believe his name was Titus, a general of Nero.

 

[1John2:4]

No, no, no. This is 70 AD, I believe his name was Titus, a general of Nero.

In 66 CE the Jewish population rebelled against the Roman Empire. Four years later, in 70 CE, Romanlegions under Titus retook and destroyed much of Jerusalem and the Second Temple. I

 

[1stcenturylady]

In 66 CE the Jewish population rebelled against the Roman Empire. Four years later, in 70 CE, Romanlegions under Titus retook and destroyed much of Jerusalem and the Second Temple. I

Right. That is Daniel 9:25.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello John.

You stated the following idea.

So we have been grafted into Israel based on the belief contained within the promise, which has been fulfilled by Christ who is risen in us; for we are joined to Him by the same faith, as evidenced by His abiding Spirit within us. Both the natural branches and grafted branches are one and the same tree of life in Christ Jesus our Lord and we are all nourished and grow by the Divine power. Context Romans 11:1 ; 'has God cast away His people 'Israel'? Certainly not! ' This is the tree that God has cultivated all along that we are now joined to. Paul makes that distinction clear and we see it is the spiritual Israel of faith, which he speaks of. Spiritual Israel is then integrated with both Jewish and Gentile partakers of the unified covenant in Christ Jesus, the seed of promise. It is not replacement theology but a joining of the blessing to Abraham Gen 22:16-18 ; for we are all one in the Lord Jesus.

Then you quoted the following verses to support this idea.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

If you had read those two verses above more carefully you would have noticed.
The gentiles were grafted in among the other branches, grafted into the root.
And the natural branches are grafted into their own olive tree.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hello John.

You stated the following idea.

Then you quoted the following verses to support this idea.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

If you had read those two verses above more carefully you would have noticed.
The gentiles were grafted in among the other branches, grafted into the root.
And the natural branches are grafted into their own olive tree.

I'm not sure what the problem is. Except your last sentence have the "natural branches being grafted into their own olive tree." Just note, that the only natural branches that have to be "grafted" in, are those who first did not believe and were CUT OFF, but didn't stay in unbelief and then were grafted back in.

“Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[Bob S]

Don't know anyone on this thread that has said that keeping Sabbath is how one gets saved. A person only gets saved through our Messiah.

Then why all the fuss about keeping the old covenant Sabbath. The following is what one church teaches and this is their prophet writing this stuff: " But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

"No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

 

[1stcenturylady]

Then why all the fuss about keeping the old covenant Sabbath. The following is what one church teaches and this is their prophet writing this stuff: " But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

"No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

Hi Bob, I doubt if John has even read a Review and Herald magazine published by the Seventh-day Adventist church seeing as he is Messianic, not SDA.

 

[1John2:4]

Then why all the fuss about keeping the old covenant Sabbath. The following is what one church teaches and this is their prophet writing this stuff: " But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

"No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

We are called to do and teach the law and prophets in order to be great in the Kingdom says our Savior what is all the fuss about not keeping it? How did the Shabbat hurt anyone? Personally I love it, last Saturday I took 2 naps! I don't see it as a burdon, don't have to work, don't have to shop I can just kick back relax and spend time with God and my family. Yeah, I may miss that Macy's one day sale but it is worth the sacrifice to obey the Creator. It's a celebration and one day it will be the ultimate wedding celebration.
Shabbat Shalom

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, and if anyone breaks one of the commandments willfully, (willingly and in rebellion, not listening to YHWH'S Word nor to Jesus),
they break all of them.

This is often seen anywhere anyone breaks one commandment, they can be (or may be) readily seen breaking all of them , sometimes behind closed doors, and often even right out in the open ! (they don't even try to hide it!!!)

 

[John 1720]

Hello John.

You stated the following idea.

Then you quoted the following verses to support this idea.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

If you had read those two verses above more carefully you would have noticed.
The gentiles were grafted in among the other branches, grafted into the root.
And the natural branches are grafted into their own olive tree.

Hello Brother KluteDavid
Sir, I fail to see how you would come to that conclusion from the plain meaning of the sentences provided. Just to be clear this is what I am claiming:

• We have become partakers of the Abrahamic blessing; which were clearly Jewish. Our standing in Christ is based on the promises initially given to Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob and yes, we have been grafted into this promise in place of the natural branches. There is much exegetical evidence as well as commentary which agrees.

Let's look at the entire passage so there is no remaining confusion.

• Audience Context: Paul is speaking about Israel to Gentile Believers so necessarily he would have been juxtaposing Israeli believers, Israel itself, Gentile believers and those nations or ethne' yet to be grafted into the ends of the earth blessing, the promise of Salvation (which occurs at the fulfillment of time of the Gentiles and also the fulfillment of Israel's return). There is clearly an admonition here that Gentile believers not be too cocky about what has 'presently' happened among the Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 11
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

• The first fruits of the Church were all Jewish, including the apostles, disciples, and the 5000 jews they added to their number at Pentecost.
• The root of course is Jesus, who self described Himself as the true Vine and His disciples as the branches.
  • John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
• The lump is the bulk product of the first-fruits the thing being kneaded usually mixed with a liquid. The Greek word is φύραμα phýrama, whicj means swelling the bulk.
  • Isaiah 49:6 Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ 
  • Then of course there is my handle from Jesus priestly prayer at the Last Supper where He prays for Himself, His Disciples, and then all who will believe through His all Jewish Apostles.
  • Jhn 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, (His Apostles) but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
  • Now the word of these first-fruits or Apostles, rooted in Christ, was propogated in their preaching as well as captured in the New Testament. The product of that effort is us the lump; both are grounded in the root of Christ.
• So we see we have but one Vine, although Paul will use the metaphor of the Olive Tree - which was the symbol for Israel. The branches represent disciples. However, we shall see the symbolism holds.

17-18 (never end on a comma) And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

• Now branches broken off implies branches that were originally there. How were they there one may ask? They were there according to the promise given to Abraham, who was blessed to be a blessing and this was passed on to his progeny Jacob (Israel). Note Jesus originally came for the children of Israel and not the Gentiles, which His conversation with the Syro-Phoenician woman bears out. He also tells the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the Jews.

• Mark 7:27 But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
• John 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”

• This is a clear reference of the Gentile Church being grafted into the same tree, since they say branches were "broken off" that I might be grafted in. There is no second tree as you suppose. There is one tree whose branches did not remain in Christ and branches from non-Israel that were grafted in their place.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

• Just an affirmation that Paul agrees with their assessment that they hve been grafted in to the tree where the other branches were broken off. He then adds that they stand in this entitlement by faith in Christ. That should make them fear and not be prideful about it.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

• If God eliminated the natural branches, those unbelieving who rejected Jesus as their Messiah, then what of Gentile Churches that may some day be rejected for the same reason.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

• The reason Gentile believers should fear is that if they do not remain in Christ they too will be cut off as Jesus said in John 15:5

23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

• "And if Israel should come to belief" here Paul doubles down on the postulate that God is able to restore them to the Olive tree (the original tree of blessing given to Israel) by re-grafting them into this tree of promised blessing.

24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

• Here Paul states Gentiles were cut out of a wild (un cultivated) olive tree but the Gentile believers were grafted into the cultivated Olive tree (Israel). Uncultivated means not cultivated by God for the blessing. This become crystal clear when he categorically states "how much more can the "natural branches", the Jews, be grafted back into their own olive tree that God has cultivated since Abraham. There are two trees, wild on it own, and natural - cultivated by God but there is only one tree that inherits the blessing to be a blessing that was given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

• Here Paul is speaking to prophesy that once the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled Israel will come to Christ and the complete Abrahamic blessing will have been completed.
• The fullness of the time of the Gentiles, of course, is the great commission which must go to all ethne'
• Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
• Once that happens Israel, the natural branches, will also be grafted back into the Olive tree.

26-27 never end context on a comma And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

• Again this is only one tree, the natural Olive tree, whose root is Christ and whose disciples are the branches both natural and grafted in wild branches; i.e Jewish and Gentiles in Christ.
• Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
• Col 3:11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

In Christ, John 17:20

 

[John 1720]

John 10 continues from John 9 and in John 9:40 we see there that Jesus was speaking to Pharisees with His disciples present so it follows that in John 10:16 Jesus is speaking to a completely Jewish audience in Jerusalem, namely the apostles and Israelites listening to His parable. Every Bible commentator I know states the same

I think I agree so far except with the contextualizing bit. I can agree. I'm sorry but Jesus says:

• 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I see 2 different folds here Jesus doesn't say: I will bring other sheep ito this fold.

How so when in the plain reading Jesus clearly says one fold - one shepherd? Yes, the Gentiles were not of this fold (Israel) but clearly the context is Jesus is integrating them into the fold not creating two folds. This only makes my point that the Gentiles have been grafted into the tree or the fold - Pick your own metaphor as it means the same thing.

Romans 11 doesn't indicate as some say the Christian becomes part of Israel.

Yes, it does make them part of the promise to Abraham but I already put that in another post - please read

• The 4th Commandment had to go, and it did.

In Christ, John 17:20

 

[bugkiller]

Don't know anyone on this thread that has said that keeping Sabbath is how one gets saved. A person only gets saved through our Messiah.

He made no claim that was the case. He said one church. He did not say your church. NTL his post was on subject of the thread.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, I know that. But just as the Father rested from His works, so did Jesus rest from His work when He said, "it is finished." Now, followers of Jesus do not habitually keep a day of the week, we rest in Jesus continually. That is the "entering into My rest" of Hebrews 4, where we can come boldly to the throne of grace.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Sin is lawlessness by Biblical Definition. So exactly what are you teaching? And exactly how does John 13:34 allow a license for lawlessness?

No sin is not merely lawlessness. Your idea comes from half a sentence.

I think your last question is what listed asked you. Why are avoiding answering it?

bugkiller