• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

The 4th Beast Was the First King of Rome

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by precepts, Jun 29, 2017.

  1. precepts

    precepts Newbie

    +130
    Non-Denom
    Single
    If you want to correctly interpret Daniel's prophecy concerning the 4th beast in Dan 7, you first have to comprehend who the 4 beasts are in Dan 7:17.

    Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
    Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


    - Who are these four kings that represent the 4 beasts: Babylon, Persia Media, Greece, and Rome?

    Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
    Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.


    - I think that if you can name the 4 kings that represent the 4 beasts, then you can know who the 10 horns are and figure out the true interpretation of the 4th beast and it's events concerning prophecies.

    Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


    - There are 11 horns on the 4th beast, that are also kings, that also arises out of the earth like the 4 beast kings so that we now have 12 kings represented in/on the 4th beast. The question now is, is it twelve or eleven kings in/on the 4th beast?

    I will leave the rest to you to figure out if they're really kings or kingdoms, based on the fact that each beast represented a king. The topic of this thread should clue you in.

    Food for thought!
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,059
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    No it is not 12 kings. When the beasts rise out of the sea - it is referring to kingdoms. When the beasts rise out of the earth, it is referring to the four most noted kings of those four kingdoms.

    There is one fourth kingdom, which in the end time will have ten jointly ruling kings. And the little horn is the king over them.

    The four kings as the four beasts coming out of the earth are:
    Nebuchadnezzar - most noted king of the 1st kingdom out of the sea
    Cyrus - most noted king of the 2nd kingdom out of the sea
    Alexander - most noted king of the 3rd kingdom out of the sea
    the little horn - most noted king of the 4th kingdom of of the sea. He is yet to come.
     
  3. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    +406
    Protestant
    Married
    The FOUR KINGS Represent Four Beast Kingdoms, naturally it took a KING to create a KINGDOM BEAST. It seems you are overemphasizing the Words Kings here. Far too many people overemphasize single words or passages and forget the Mosaic picture we are presented. The Kingdoms are evident here, in Daniel 8 and in Daniel 2.

    We know the Kings that Started Each Kingdom, but the Beast is the Kingdom, not the King(s).

    There is 10 Kings that Arise with the Anti-Christ/Little Horn, the Little Horn is a BEAST. The Little Horn arises 2000 years after Rome was a BEAST over Israel.

    Seven Headed Beast all Conquered or ruled Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the coming Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horn will do the same.
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,059
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    RT, you have turned the Daniel 7 four beasts coming out the sea into four of the 7 heads on the Revelation 13 beast coming out the sea.

    The problem with doing that is in Revelation 13, three of the kingdoms of Daniel 7 are in the body of the Revelation 13 beast. The mouth of a lion, feet of a bear, body of a leopard.

    You have the seven heads interpreted wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  5. precepts

    precepts Newbie

    +130
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Nobody is emphasizing anything. If the text wanted to say that the beasts were kingdoms, it would have said exactly that; but it is specifically saying that the beasts are kings, namely the first king of each kingdom - your, and denominational Christianity's, stumbling block.

    The text specifically says they are kings. Each of the 4 kings are beasts/fallen angels - your, and denominational Christianity's, stumbling block. You have no right to change what the text specifically says, just to fit your opinion, especially since it goes on to say that the 10 horns are also kings, which is the key to interpreting what the prophecy says!


    I don't have time for faulty opinions. Revelation tells us that the Beast was the 8th horn and not the 11th. Get a grip.

    Nowhere in scripture does it say that. The beasts listed in Daniel and in Revelation are the nations that ruled over Israel up until the new covenant, which was Babylon, Persia Media, Greece, and Rome. There is no old covenant or sacrifices to be halted since the new covenant was instituted. You, like denominational Christianity, are misinterpreting the prophecy - the reason why I pointed out the fact that if you don't accept the fact that the beasts are kings, you will never interpret the prophecy correctly.

    Give me a break! The folly of fools is not to follow instructions. You are blaspheming the text. The text specifically says the horns are kings, but you want to override God's word and say that God doesn't know how to describe kingdoms from kings.
     
  6. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    +406
    Protestant
    Married
    That's because they are the same "Gentile Beasts" that arise out of the Sea (meaning Gentiles Sea) the Holy Land and its inhabitants (Jews) was the LAND and the Gentiles were the Sea.

    Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    Here is all five Beasts that Daniel Mentions. The Leopard, the Bear, the Lion, there was only one other Beast Mentioned in Daniel, the Dreadful Beast with Iron Teeth. He was the Last Beast (Rome) but Israel was no more and Rome also lost its power, it was as Dead. BUT.....The Deadly wound is healed, meaning the Little Horn arises out of the Fourth Beasts Head or out of Europe. Thus all Five of the Daniel Beasts are mentioned. Then we of course have to add Egypt and Assyria, of course they were the other Two Gentile Beasts of the Seven Headed Beast mentioned in Rev. 13 and 17.

    Those body parts are mentioned to let you know these are the Same Beasts of Daniel 7. That's one of the clues to help solve the riddle. The Seven Heads are easy to interpret.
     
  7. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    +406
    Protestant
    Married
    You don't know exactly what the original texts in Hebrew state or mean, there can be great variances. In Rev. 17 the Seven Heads are REDUCED to Seven Kings. I do know the Beasts are Described as Kingdoms, but it does take a KING to come forth to make a KINGDOM....So it always starts with a King.

    Which is why you have to go LINE UPON LINE, AND PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT. Many other places call the Beasts Kingdoms. This is telling you Kings started the Kingdoms and the Last King is not going to be a KINGDOM but a ONE MAN SHOW.

    There is no 8th, that's a Demon, the text clearly calls it a Seven Headed Beast. The Little Horn arises with the 10. The Little Horn is the Seventh Head.

    LOL..........You don't have a clue about Prophecy brother.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,059
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The text of Daniel 7 says FOUR not five.

    "The Leopard, the Bear, the Lion, there was only one other Beast Mentioned in Daniel, the Dreadful Beast with Iron Teeth"

    That's four.

    Features from the leopard, the bear, the lion, are in the body of the Daniel 7's fourth beast in Revelation 13 coming out of sea. Not the heads.

    It doesn't say of the seven heads, that any of them are the head of a lion, a bear, a leopard., which would have to be for your interpretation to be correct. And what kind of animals are you saying the Egypt and Assyrian heads are represented by?
     
  9. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    +406
    Protestant
    Married
    That means you have to solve the riddle then doesn't it Doug? The same way Jesus spoke to us in riddles, we are given a riddle here. The Fourth Beast is Rime and then the Little Horn arises out of his Head 2000 years Latter. He is spoke of in terms as a MAN...he has eyes, he commits blasphemous with a MOUTH, he is cast into the Burning flame or hell, just like the Anti-Christ in Rev.19.

    That's why you have Seven Heads to the Beast: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the Little Horn or Anti-Christ.

    John is giving you a hint who the are by including the bodies, its up to you to pick up on it. I don't think God gets through to many people because they have way out their ideas and their pride seems to much for God to overcome.

    I hear people saying the Fourth Best is not Rome, all Four Beasts are End Time Beasts, they are Roman Emperors, they come out of the Greek Kingdoms, that Babylon is not the Lon but its the Medes Kingdom, that Greece wasn't a Kingdom after Alexander dies.

    The reason we have so much confusion is the pride of man, because God is not the God of confusion. We know who the Four Beasts are BABYLON, PERSIA, GREECE and ROME unless we are just not paying attention. We also understand the Little Horn is an END TIME BEAST because he gets thrown into hell in Daniel 7:11. THAT'S FIVE BEASTS IN DANIEL.

    Then we get all of this BUT, BUT, but in Rev. they are a part of the BODY they aren't the HEAD. Well who do you think the Heads are? The Reason the Bear, Lion and Leopard was shown as a part of the BODY is John/Jesus wanted us to know this is ONE BEAST.....Its all of Satan's doings. I saw A BEAST RISE UP OUT OF THE SEA Not 7 Beasts...........One Beast with Seven Heads. Does John really need to tell you who the Seven Heads are? Isn't that obvious? It boggles my mind that we can't figure these things out and are all over the place collectively as a Church.

    There are Six Kingdoms that have Conquered Israel throughout the Ages. There is a Seventh that is going to CONQUER HER...........And we can't get who the Seven Beasts are, because imho, we are trying way to hard. Its simplistic.
     
  10. precepts

    precepts Newbie

    +130
    Non-Denom
    Single
    I do not need to know what the original text says because all the horns described in the book of Daniel are identified as kings. That is the point and that is the logic. Every last horn is identified as a king, from the 2 horns of the ram to the 10 horns on the 4th beast, every one of them.



    It is not telling you that kings started the kingdoms. God knows exactly what He is saying when He says they are kings. And if you follow the line upon line, precept upon precept rule, you have to acknowledge that all the horns in Daniel are kings, because Daniel tells us the ram's horns were the kings of Media and Persia, that the Greek horns were kings, Alexander and his 4 generals, etc., which brings us to the 4th beast's 11 horns/kings! The text is telling you that each king is a beast, is a fallen angel, is a city/kingdom. Babylon has fallen, has fallen, is referring both to a city/kingdom and a king/beast, because they are the fallen angels. A city and the Beast fell in Revelation, which Revelation also identifies as the 8th king of Rome! Get the facts straight.



    They are all fallen angels/devils/demons. And the 7 heads, as the text specifically says, are the 7 hills of Rome, where the city/the woman sits, the scarlet colored beast being the 7 hills of Rome, which, again, is also the Beast (scarlet colored), the 8th king of Rome. You're blaspheming the text, in saying there's no 8th king.



    The reason you have to attack my person and not address the facts is because you can't. That's Debate-ology 101. You can't admit the truth, which is nothing but a sign of the times we are living in.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,059
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Your choice of words are misleading. You say "Rome" and not Roman Empire or Roman kingdom. There is a big difference. Rome is a city. It is also commonly used by Catholics to refer to the Vatican when speaking of doctrine decision and dictates.

    The fourth beast is not Rome, not a city, but the Roman Empire.

    The person described as the little horn is the same person described as the beast in Revelation 19. That part is not an issue of disagreement I have with you. The person is no longer the Antichrist in either Revelation 13 and Revelation 19, but that is separate issue.

    You are avoiding calling the four beasts "kingdoms" or "empires". It is Babylonian Empire, Medo-Persian Empire, Greek Empire, Roman Empire.

    It is not five beasts in Daniel 7. It is the four beasts as kingdoms, when coming out the sea. And it is the same four beasts as kings, i.e. persons, when coming out of the earth.

    What you have done above, have combined the four kingdoms, with the little horn, a person. And confusingly claim five beasts in Daniel... :doh: It is four beasts as kingdoms. Then the same four beasts as kings - persons. There are not five beasts in Daniel 7.

    You are doing the same thing in your interpretation of the 7 kings in Revelation 17, in reverse fashion, calling the 7 kings - as 7 kingdoms.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,059
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    The 7 heads are kings of the Roman Empire, the fourth beast. five fiallen, one is (at the time of John).
    One yet to come - the little horn. Which in Daniel 7, the little horn comes up among ten kings of fourth kingdom.

    None of the heads are kingdoms, none are the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the Egyptian Empire, the Assyrian Empire.

    The reason is because the little horn is associated with the fourth empire only. He is the 7th king, yet to come, of the Roman Empire. But the historic Roman Empire faded away long age. Which there is an end times version of it, as the EU.

    It says of the 7th king when he comes he must continue a little space - that little space is the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 after he has recovered from being mortally wounded.
     
  13. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    +406
    Protestant
    Married
    No its not, we both understand we are speaking about the BEASTS, so its only misleading if you refuse to admit the context its being spoken in.

    Hallelujah....I think that is a foregone conclusion. Rome was the place where the Roman Kingdom kicked off, it changed types of Government three times. The name of the King was Romulus.

    Correct, but he will always be the Anti-Christ and the Beast, at least after he conquers Jerusalem he is the BEAST. The Anti-Christ is always against Christ.

    Call them what you like, they are Beasts according to God in Daniel 7. We all know they were Gentile Kingdoms, you call them Empires if you like.

    It is CLEARLY FIVE... Rome/Roman Empire and the Little Horn that arises at the END TIMES. The Leopard, Lion, Bear, the one that's as DEAD is of course Rome/Roman Empire and the one that is brought back to life is the Little Horn. That's FIVE.

    In Daniel 23 the Fourth Beast is DIVERSE from ALL the BEASTS in verse 24 the Little Horn is DIVERSE from the FIRST (Roman Empire). Why does it say FIRST in verse 24? Because there are TWO BEASTS.

    So when I prove to you that Daniel saw the Little Horn as a BEAST that ends the discussion then right? Because that is factual.

    Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the BEAST was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    Daniel says the Little Horn MAN.........Was a BEAST !! That means there are FIVE BEASTS !!

    The Angel did that in Rev. 17, not me, you just have to follow along.

    I don't even know where you guys get these ideas............We know who the Four Beasts were, you feel the need to complicate something with ZERO FACTS.

    The Lion, Leopard, Bear are shown to be a part of the BODY in Rev. 13 that comes out of the Gentile Sea. And you don't get it? !!

    Over COMPLICATION......Beast are those that come against Israel.........The Seven are found in our history books and the Bible. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the Coming Little Horn/Anti-Christ.

    I wish people would just stop over complicating what God has shown us to be simple.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,059
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    What? The little horn is a person, not a kingdom. Are you claiming the little horn is a kingdom?
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,059
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Daniel was not saying that the little horn was given to the burning flame. It says because of the words the little horn spoke.... the beast as a kingdom will be destroyed.

    And for certain, it does not say five beasts. That is something you are creating in your rationale.

    That the little horn is one of the four beasts as king, when coming out of the earth is not a point of contention. The point of contention is that you are counting the little horn in with the four kingdoms...that when totaled, to erroneously say that there are five beasts.

    There are four kings, as beasts, when coming out of the earth. Those four prominent kings are associated the four kingdoms.

    The four kings and the kingdoms they are associated with are:
    Kingdom 1 - the babylonian empire - Nebuchadnezzar
    Kingdom 2 - Medo-Persian empire - Cyrus
    Kingdom 3 - Greek empire - Alexander
    Kingdom 4 - Roman Empire - little horn

    Of Kingdom 4, there are the seven heads, in Revelation:
    head 1 Julius Caesar
    head 2 Augustus Caesar
    head 3 Tiberius Caesar
    head 4 Caligula Caesar
    head 5 Claudius Caesar
    head 6 Nero Caesar
    head 7 end times little horn - yet to come
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +2,059
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Oh in your view, the Assyrian and Egyptian empires, were not Gentile empires? Those aren't represented in the body. Why not?


    The reason for the composite body is because with 42 months left in the 7 years, the end times Roman Empire, will have gained control of the territories once held by those three historic kingdoms.

    The Assyrian and Egyptian empires are not part of the Daniel 2, Daniel 7 visions. It is just going down the wrong trail, because some people have misinterpreted Revelation 17 of kings being kingdoms.
     
  17. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    +406
    Protestant
    Married
    The Little Horn is a MAN BEAST....There will be but ONE KING in his BEAST KINGDOM, when he dies its over....But saying a man that Murders Billions and controls the whole world is not ruling over a great Kingdom is little naive isn't it? God calls him a MAN Because he wants us to know there will be no others that follow him. In his BEAST KINGDOM he is the one and only. All other BEAST KINGDOMS started with a FIRST KING also....you over think these things.
     
  18. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    +406
    Protestant
    Married
    He most certainly did say it. Why do you want to change the clear words of the scriptures?

    Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    The Anti-Christ was thrown into the burning fire...........The REST of the Beasts (Babylon, Greece, Persia and Rome) lost their Dominion let lived on, but the LAST BEAST i cast straight into hell jusr like Revelation 19 says..........

    Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Yea, it matches exactly.

    Either you understand prophecy or you don't.

    Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the LITTLE HORN.....

    That Ceasar stuff SMH.
     
  19. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    +406
    Protestant
    Married
    They are a HEAD........The Head represents the Kingdom. The Daniel Beasts were given as a CLUE fo people like you to understand, if you will not go down your own pathway.

    Its the LITTLE HORN.........Rome is a Dead Beast.

    They didn't need to be a part of of Daniel, they had passed. When the Seven Headed Beast was shown they were shown, it lets you know that ALL THE BEASTS have a common thread, the Conquered or enslaved Israel. If God had showed a 5 headed Beast and left off Egypt and Assyria people like ones I know would have let Rome and the Little Horn of and stated everything ENDED with Greece.

    The Seven Nations that have Come against Israel is CLEAR.......It is a Historical FACT.
     
Loading...