The 2020 Big Lie just took a(nother) big hit

[The Barbarian]

Only Trump said their was fraud and a few of his staunch supporters.

The majority of Republicans accepted the results and even told Trump to back off.

Well, let's take a look...

Republicans in the House of Representatives have voted to dismiss Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) from her position as chair of the House Republican Conference due to her refusal to support former President Donald Trump and go along with the so-called “Big Lie,” the false narrative that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. PRRI’s March survey shows that Cheney is indeed in the minority within her party. While less than three in ten Americans (29%) agree with the statement that “the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump,” two-thirds of Republicans (66%) agree that the election was stolen. Among all Americans, more than two-thirds (68%) disagree with the “big lie,” including 57% who completely disagree. Only 33% of Republicans disagree, and less than one in five (18%) completely disagree.


Not surprisingly, most independents (72%) and Democrats (95%) disagree that the election was stolen from Trump. About one in four independents (27%) believe the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump, and only 4% of Democrats agree with this statement.
The “Big Lie”: Most Republicans Believe the 2020 Election was Stolen | PRRI

Two-thirds of republicans say the election was stolen. And 68 percent of all Americans say it wasn't stolen. Looks like it's almost exclusively a republican delusion.

 

[iarwain]

Show us that. Checkable sources that say that Trump's election in 2016 was not legitimate.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I do not dispute that Biden won the election. However, the Covid rules did offer opportunity for fraud, holes that should be plugged.

You really don't remember the claims that Trump's election was illegitimate? It went on for most of his presidency. Here's an article you should like from a left leaning magazine, it talks about the recent history of disputed elections, including 2016. It blames Bob Dole for starting the trend, but my memory is Dole's point was more that "Most people voted against Clinton, so he shouldn't have a mandate".

What Bob Dole Hath Wrought

Disputed elections are now more the rule rather than the exception. Unfortunately. I personally think Trump should have dropped his objections after his court cases failed. But I also think the main reason this last round of election disputes was more unruly is because of the example set by the 2020 BLM/Antifa riots, and the way leftists excused them, and even promoted them. The right was copycatting them to some extent.

 

[The Barbarian]

You really don't remember the claims that Trump's election was illegitimate?

I remember Clinton conceding. Which democrat leader said it was stolen? Let's see what you have.

 

[The Barbarian]

Disputed elections are now more the rule rather than the exception. Unfortunately. I personally think Trump should have dropped his objections after his court cases failed. But I also think the main reason this last round of election disputes was more unruly is because of the example set by the 2020 BLM/Antifa riots

That story fell apart when it became clear that the violence was mainly by right-wing extremists trying to blame BLM.

Would you like me to show you that?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

They tried so blatantly that they were forced to sign a consent decree banning them from doing it.
For the past 40 years, the party organization has been bound by a "consent decree" secured in federal court in 1982. As a result, the GOP was barred from engaging in these kinds of "election security" campaigns, which seem to be little more than efforts at voter intimidation and election interference.

The decree had its origins in the 1981 gubernatorial race in New Jersey. Widely understood as the first real referendum on the Reagan administration, the contest drew intense attention from both parties.

To support the campaign of Republican nominee Tom Kean Sr., the RNC dispatched political operative John A. Kelly to the state. Kelly — who was soon revealed to have fraudulently claimed to have an undergraduate degree from Notre Dame, a law degree from Fordham, a past role in law enforcement and an official position with the Fraternal Order of Police — saw his mission as exposing "voter fraud." He launched a grandly titled "National Ballot Security Task Force" to identify suspicious Democratic voters and monitor selected polling places.

On Election Day, off-duty police officers and sheriff's deputies hired by Kelly's group were equipped with revolvers, two-way radios and official-looking armbands, and they were sent to predominantly Black and Hispanic polling places. "WARNING," their posters announced in red letters, "THIS AREA IS BEING PATROLLED BY THE NATIONAL BALLOT SECURITY TASK FORCE. IT IS A CRIME TO FALSIFY A BALLOT OR TO VIOLATE ELECTION LAWS." A Democratic City Council member from Newark complained that guards were operating "like the Gestapo" there, popping into polling places in small groups, looking through registration books and challenging voters.
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The consent decree, an agreement between the two parties, required the national and state GOP to seek court approval of any future "ballot security" programs, subject to being found in contempt if they ever engaged in similar practices.
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A federal judge finally allowed the consent decree to expire in late 2017, believing the issue had been put to rest.
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At a private meeting with Republican officials last fall, Justin Clark, a senior lawyer with the 2020 Trump campaign, noted that this was "a huge, huge, huge, huge deal." The RNC can now coordinate Election Day operations with various campaigns and committees. As a result, Clark said, Republicans would have "a much bigger program, much more aggressive program, a better funded program"
GOP voter suppression is the worst it's been in 40 years. There's a reason for that.

This kind of fraudulent behavior is not something they just dreamed up recently. When the decree expired, they went right back to doing it again.

That's the truth.

From the article;


"In May, the Republican National Committee announced its own massive program to monitor polling places and challenge ballots cast by voters its representatives deem suspicious. The plan, backed by $20 million, called for the recruitment of 50,000 private citizens to serve as "poll watchers" across 15 battleground states"

How horrible for them to monitor the polling places to ensure that the voting wasn't corrupt, eh ?

Why would the Democrats oppose this ?

 

[The Barbarian]

n May, the Republican National Committee announced its own massive program to monitor polling places and challenge ballots cast by voters its representatives deem suspicious. The plan, backed by $20 million, called for the recruitment of 50,000 private citizens to serve as "poll watchers" across 15 battleground states"

The article continues:
On Election Day, off-duty police officers and sheriff's deputies hired by Kelly's group were equipped with revolvers, two-way radios and official-looking armbands, and they were sent to predominantly Black and Hispanic polling places. "WARNING," their posters announced in red letters, "THIS AREA IS BEING PATROLLED BY THE NATIONAL BALLOT SECURITY TASK FORCE. IT IS A CRIME TO FALSIFY A BALLOT OR TO VIOLATE ELECTION LAWS." A Democratic City Council member from Newark complained that guards were operating "like the Gestapo" there, popping into polling places in small groups, looking through registration books and challenging voters.
...
Democrats responded by suing the Republicans in federal court. The lawsuit sought $10 million in damages "for the deprivation of the right to vote" and an injunction preventing Republicans from trying the same thing in other elections. It also demanded that Republicans produce internal correspondence and documents about the task force to demonstrate its illegal intent. For the suit, Democrats provided affidavits from 80 voters who said they had either left the polls themselves or seen others do so due to the presence of the armed guards. One of them, an African American woman in Trenton, reported that task force members stopped her, demanded to see her voter registration card and then turned her away when she did not produce it.

How horrible for them to monitor the polling places to ensure that the voting wasn't corrupt, eh ?

As you see, the intent was to corrupt the voting by intimidating voters. Notice they only went to minority areas, knowing those were the people most likely to vote democratic. This is why the republican party was forced into a consent decree banning such corrupt behavior. And now that they've been released from the decree, they went right back to their old ways.

Why would the Democrats oppose this ?

Mostly because it's in their favor to permit all qualified Americans to vote.

 

[The Barbarian]

You really don't remember the claims that Trump's election was illegitimate?

We're waiting to see your evidence that democrat leaders said that Trump's election was illegitimate. Checkable sources, please.

 

[iarwain]

We're waiting to see your evidence that democrat leaders said that Trump's election was illegitimate. Checkable sources, please.

You seriously remember none of this? I already posted one article. Here's another:

Hillary Clinton: Trump is an ‘illegitimate president’

 

[The Barbarian]

That site seems to have a paywall or something. Let's see what we can find...

“So maybe there does need to be a rematch. Obviously, I can beat him again,” Clinton claimed. “But, just seriously, I don’t understand, I don’t think anybody understands what motivates him.”

That's all I can find. And she doesn't say what you said she did. The context was edited out for reasons we can pretty well understand. She did beat him in the popular vote. But she also says he won the presidency:

Hillary Clinton called on her supporters to accept the US election result on Wednesday, as she delivered a concession speech in New York in which she pressed Donald Trump to hold fast to American values.

“Donald Trump is going to be our president,” she said, speaking at the New Yorker hotel in Manhattan. “We owe him an open mind and a chance to lead.”

But she said that in addition to respecting the election result, “we must defend” the values of non-discrimination and the rule of law and equality before the law, and advance the values “we hold most dear”.
Hillary Clinton concedes presidential election to Donald Trump: 'We must accept this result'

If you have something where she actually says he's not the legitimate president, can you show us? I just showed you a statement where she said he was going to be president,and her followers needed to respect that result.

Just think, if Trump had the moral fiber make the same concession in 2020, the Insurrection by his followers against the Capitol would never have happened.

 

[iarwain]

That site seems to have a paywall or something.

Odd, I don't hit a paywall. But here are a few quotes from the article:
“No, it doesn’t kill me because he knows he’s an illegitimate president,” she said. “I believe he understands that the many varying tactics they used, from voter suppression and voter purging to hacking to the false stories – he knows that – there were just a bunch of different reasons why the election turned out like it did.”

In June, former president Jimmy Carter used similar language to diminish Trump’s presidency. Carter said that in his view Trump lost the 2016 election and was put in office by the Russians. Asked if he considered Trump to be illegitimate, Carter said, “Based on what I just said, which I can’t retract.”

Clinton also predicted Trump would lose in 2020 because “there were many funny things that happened in my election that will not happen again.”

Here's an article from CNN with a timeline about Russian interference in the election. This was an ongoing theme as to why Trump was considered illegitimate (see Carter's remarks above):
2016 Presidential Campaign Hacking Fast Facts | CNN

 

[The Barbarian]

Odd, I don't hit a paywall. But here are a few quotes from the article:

Here's the statement that counts...

Hillary Clinton called on her supporters to accept the US election result on Wednesday, as she delivered a concession speech in New York in which she pressed Donald Trump to hold fast to American values.

“Donald Trump is going to be our president,” she said, speaking at the New Yorker hotel in Manhattan. “We owe him an open mind and a chance to lead.”

But she said that in addition to respecting the election result, “we must defend” the values of non-discrimination and the rule of law and equality before the law, and advance the values “we hold most dear”.
Hillary Clinton concedes presidential election to Donald Trump: 'We must accept this result'

Even with all the help he was getting from Putin, she still acknowledged him as president, told her followers to respect the results, and went on. Just think, if Trump had the moral fiber make the same concession in 2020, the Insurrection by his followers against the Capitol would never have happened.

Because his uncontrolled narcissism and anger couldn't let him accept the reality, he sent his followers to the Capitol, telling them to "fight like hell." And they did. Five people died, and for a time, Americans wondered if we were becoming Libya.

Equating this to the things Clinton and Carter said, seems completely divorced from reality.

 

[iarwain]

Just think, if Trump had the moral fiber make the same concession in 2020, the Insurrection by his followers against the Capitol would never have happened.

As I said previously, I think Trump should have dropped his election complaints after his court cases failed.

 

[The Barbarian]

And an AZ republican state senator has finally had enough...

In Arizona, 16 Republicans in the State Senate voted to subpoena ballots in Maricopa County for an audit to satisfy the Trump supporters who demanded it. And since the recount has launched, it has been dogged with allegations of corruption and incompetence.
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Many of the allegations are aimed at Cyber Ninjas, the Florida-based private company contracted to recount the vote, which has no experience with ballots or election integrity, and is run by far-right conspiracy theorist Doug Logan. And the recount, which was supposed the wrap up next week, is now expected to extend into August.

Katie Hobbs, Arizona’s secretary of state and a Democrat, sounded the alarm last month when she said, “My concern grows deeper by the hour, … It is clear that no one involved in this process knows what they are doing, and they are making it up as they go along.”

Now, GOP state senator Paul Boyer, who voted for the recount, is having second thoughts. “It makes us look like idiots,” Boyer said. “Looking back, I didn’t think it would be this ridiculous. It’s embarrassing to be a state senator at this point.”
“It Makes Us Look Like Idiots”: Arizona GOP State Senator Finally Regrets Endless 2020 Recount

The republican majority on the Maricopa County board of election supervisors also ripped the politicized games being played by republican senators:

That the Senate would launch such a grave accusation via Twitter not only before waiting for an answer to your questions, but also before your so called “audit” demonstrates to the world that the Arizona Senate is not acting in good faith, has no intention of learning anything about the November 2020 General Election, but is only interested in feeding the various festering conspiracy theories that fuel the fundraising schemes of those pulling your strings. You have rented out the once good name of the Arizona State Senate to grifters and con-artists, who are fundraising hard-earned money from our fellow citizens even as your contractors parade around the Coliseum, hunting for bamboo and something they call “kinematic artifacts” while shining purple lights for effect. None of these things are done in a serious audit. The result is that the Arizona Senate is held up to ridicule in every corner of the globe and our democracy is imperiled.
Maricopa County Election Board Pens Fiery Letter to Arizona Senate Republicans

It's hard to believe anyone still buys into this stuff. But apparently, the MAGA crowd still falls for it.

 

[The Barbarian]

And the latest one out of the car...

Trump: ‘The entire database of Maricopa County in Arizona has been DELETED!’
Trump: ‘The entire database of Maricopa County in Arizona has been DELETED!’

He lied, of course. It's still there, and the Arizona Senate has a copy of it. They don't even care if people believe it, now. It's just stories they tell each other to keep the illusion going.

 

[The Barbarian]

And it appears the Big Lie delusion is starting to recede, even among republicans:

Thirty percent of Republican voters say they believe former President Trump will "likely" be reinstated to office this year, a new Hill-HarrisX poll finds.

The results are comparable to other polling from Politico-Morning Consult released this month that showed nearly three in 10 Americans believe Trump will be reinstated.

While a segment of the GOP has indicated support for the idea, the vast majority of voters across the political spectrum agree it's unlikely that Trump will return to office this year.

Seventy percent of Republican respondents in the Hill-HarrisX poll said such a scenario is unlikely, along with 74 percent of independents and 87 percent of Democrats.

Meanwhile, 26 percent of independent voters said it's likely Trump will be reinstated while 13 percent of Democrats said the same.

There is no constitutional or legal mechanism for Trump to return to office in 2021 after losing to President Biden in last year's election. The Electoral College results were certified by Congress in January.
Poll: 30 percent of GOP voters believe Trump will 'likely' be reinstated this year