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That pesky free will thing again.

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Wearynot, Feb 3, 2002.

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  1. Wearynot

    Wearynot Active Member

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    I s'pose it belongs in a non-essential doctrine forum, although Calvinists might argue it is essential doctrine.

    In any event, this afternoon I was doin' a little comparison to some pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, and I ran across this little bit of Scripture that has, once again, thrown a monkey wrench in my study of Calvinism china cabinet.

    Now, mind you all, I understand the rules of interpretation of Scripture, but this just jumped in my lap, and I am sitting here trying to figure out what it's doin' in my lap...

    Isaiah 66:4 "So I will choose their punishments
    And will bring on them what they dread.
    Because I called, but no one answered;
    I spoke, but they did not listen.
    And they did evil in My sight
    And chose that in which I did not delight."


    It sounds to me as though Israel is making choices that has made God unhappy. Why would this be if God has already made all the choices?

    Yeah, I'm a free-will theist.
     
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  2. WhitBit

    WhitBit Mirror of His Heart

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    :p "Yeah, I'm a free-will theist."

    *watching for Calvinists to counter...not expecting any*

    I think you summed it up quite nicely :D
    *high five*
     
  3. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Wearynot,

    I was posting a rebuttal to your verse. (albeit I was playing devil's advocate) but I can't even see a good argument against it. Great verse. And I never thought Christianity would make sense if God chose some people to go to Heaven only. It just does not sound like God to me.

    BH6
     
  4. Wearynot

    Wearynot Active Member

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    Well, in areas of non-essential doctrine I don't like to get all up in arms, but I do seek a better understanding of it.

    It seems that every time I get to the point where I am willing to embrace Reformed Theology, something happens to drag me back from the precipace.

    * Oh! I like that title much better!*
     
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Yeah, I'm a free-will theist. "

    woo hoo!!!
     
  6. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
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    it is a rather thought provoking statment i will give you that but even tho i think freewill was a gift and a curse...... Look at Adam and Eve. Eve choose not to listen to God and was seduced by the evil one.

    Remember the verse (something to the effect of) He calls us all to him, but he only takes a few.
     
  7. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    OptimusP,

    That is a very interesting point. I do not think it was a curse though. If it was then God cursed Adam from the beggining. Adam and Eve were the only ones to have freewill in a way. Just think to have not known sin. To not have a sin nature. That would be cool. However I would probably do the same thing that they did sooner or later.

    BH6
     
  8. snw7

    snw7 Guest

    +0
    Alright - now you definitely have me totally confused. Can you please explain?

    On another thread dealing with OSAS we just keep going back and forth. You said to me on that thread that we don't have any choices while we are in our sinful nature - yet here you are agreeing (it appears) with the thought that we are "free-will" creatures.

    If we are free-will we have choices - pre and post Christianity. If we are sans free-will - then we don't have the ability to make choices - they're all made for us.

    Can you clarify for me at least what your stance is. I'm trying to understand you, but I'm thoroughly confused.

    In Christ,
    Shawn
     
  9. Wearynot

    Wearynot Active Member

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    Do you mean this? The Parable of the Marriage Feast:



    Does God invite all? Or does He invite some? A few?

    My NASB commentary references the Semitic usage of many is viewed as all.

     
  10. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

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    "a proverbial summary of hte meaning of the parable, God invites "many" (perhaps "all" in biew of the Semitic usage of "many") to be part of His kingdom, but only a "few" are chosen by Him. This does not mean that God chooses arbitrarily. The invitation must be accepted, followed by appropriate conduct. Proper behavior is evidence of being chosen." Page 1400 from NASB Study Bible.
     
  11. Wearynot

    Wearynot Active Member

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    You been peekin' over my shoulder?
     
  12. epobre

    epobre Guest

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    Wearynot,

    You're right. God indeed gives man a free will to choose.

    God gave ancient Israel a CHOICE:

    Deut. 30:15-20 (TEV): (15)"Today, I'm giving you a CHOICE between good and evil, between life and death."

    (16)"If you OBEY the COMMANDS of the Lord your God, which I give you today, if you love him, obey him, and keep all his laws, then you will prosper and become a nation of many people. The Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are about to occupy."

    (17)"But if you disobey or refuse to listen, and are led away to worship other gods,"

    (1:cool: you will be destroyed - I warn you here and now. You will not live long in that land across the Jordan that you are about to occupy."

    (19)" I am giving you the CHOICE between life and death, between God's blessing and God's curse, and I cll heaven and earth to witness the CHOICE you make. CHOOSE LIFE!"

    (20)" Love the Lord your God, obey him and be faithful to him, and then you and your descendnts will live long in the land that he promised to give your ancestors, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacon."


    God ALSO gives people in these last days a CHOICE. Speaking through His son (Heb. 1:1-2), God commands people to LISTEN to Jesus (Matt. 17:5).

    John 3:16-21 (TEV): (16)"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who BELIEVES in him may NOT die but [v]have eternal life[/b]."

    (1:cool: "Whoever BELIEVES in the Son is NOT JUDGED; but whoever DOES NOT believe has ALREADY BEEN JUDGED, because he HAS NOT BELIEVED in God's only Son."

    (19)"This is how the JUDGMENT works: the LIGHT has come into the world, but people LOVE the DARKNESS rather than the LIGHT, because their deeds are EVIL
    "

    (20)"Anyone who does EVIL things HATES the light and will NOT come to the light, because he does not want his evil deeds to be shown up."

    (21)"But whoever DOES what is TRUE comes to the light in order that the light may show that what he DID was in OBEDIENCE to God."[/i]

    Thus, people can CHOOSE to come to the light, BELIEVE Jesus and have ETERNAL LIFE or remain in darkness, REJECT what Jesus says and DIE.

    God says, "CHOOSE life!"

    Ed
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    no problem snw

    "You said to me on that thread that we don't have any choices while we are in our sinful nature "

    Nope we don't UNTIL God gives us that choice. LIke I said before, its the invitation that validates the reply.

    Did that help? I would suggest reading the book of Hosea.
     
  14. Wearynot

    Wearynot Active Member

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    Preach it, brutha!!
     
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