THAT CALVINISTS DON'T BELIEVE IN FREE WILL - is the most often repeated lie in the forum.

[Marvin Knox]

“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” - WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH

Reformed doctrine (Calvinist, if you will) couldn’t be more emphatically clear in saying that God’s ordaining of all things which happen in His creation in no way makes Him the author of sin or infringes on the will and liberty of men to do as they will.

That being the case – why do so many insist on saying that the Reformed teaching of predestination denies the free will of men?

 

[RC1970]

why do so many insist on saying that the Reformed teaching of predestination denies the free will of men?

Because Reformed doctrine emphasizes God's sovereignty over man.

Human free will is always limited by God's free will.

 

[victorinus]

That being the case – why do so many insist on saying that the Reformed teaching of predestination denies the free will of men?

predestination means the destination has already been determined

 

[com7fy8]

Hi, Marvin God bless you I am Bill

I do understand the Bible means God is in full control of all.

And Romans chapter nine is context for what I mean.

And the Bible plainly says we all have been slaves of sin, and this includes Hebrews 2:14-15. If my will is in slavery to Satan, it is not free. And Jesus told Paul to minister for us to be delivered "from the power of Satan to God," in Acts 26:18. To me, now, I see this includes that there is no middle ground between Satan's power and God Himself.

There is no in-between free will.

Either a person is worked-in by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience"; or "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Obedience, then, means God is the One working our wills to will what He wants. So, in case we are supposing we are making our own choices, by our own ability . . . only God is good, and therefore the only One capable of willing what is good; so, then, we need His grace which has us willing all He desires.

Either we are slaves of Satan, then, or we are "joined to the Lord" and "one spirit with Him." (in 1 Corinthians 6:17) If you are "one spirit with" Jesus, you are not free from Jesus. And in union with Christ our wills become more and more how Jesus makes us "free indeed" (John 8:36) . . . but this in sharing with Him, because of being "one spirit with Him". Jesus in us shares His freedom with us, more and more as we grow in Him > Galatians 4:19, Ephesians 6:10.

Apart from Christ, we have no real, trustworthy freedom, then. But our only real freedom is in sharing with Jesus in us, and this while we are submitting at every moment - - - to how He is guiding us "continually" (Isaiah 58:11) . . . in His yoke in which we have "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

But the will of ego is free from this, so we can get ourselves into trouble and frustration and social error and hurts and unforgiveness, and arguing to justify this, instead of first seeking God for Himself.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

If we submit to God, He changes our character so it is our nature to freely flow with Him, more and better all the time. Our self and its will is a problem, then; this is why Jesus says >

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

My self which I need to deny includes my ego's will which is free from how God our Father would rule us and share so personally with us in His very own peace > Colossians 3:15. So, this is why our own willing keeps getting us what is so inferior > we need real correction > Hebrews 12:4-11.

 

[sdowney717]

predestination means the destination has already been determined

Yes, the outcome is certain and foreknown to God because God has determined it to be so.
But the way this happens it is not forced onto the old man's will.
Regeneration is done by God and Jesus likens this to the wind blowing where it wishes.
We are given a new heart. That new heart is spiritually linked to the Holy Spirit, and it is taught by the Holy Spirit who always leads His people to Christ.
Jesus said all that the Father gives me will come to me.
And the Holy Spirit will lead the people of God, whom He regenerates into all truth, and Jesus is the way, the truth, the life.

 

[victorinus]

Yes, the outcome is certain and foreknown to God because God has determined it to be so.

so we have no free will?

 

[com7fy8]

And we can feed on what is predestined >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

 

[com7fy8]

so we have no free will?

We experience ourselves to be making free choices, but are we acting on our own, or is there a spiritual being in us effecting which choice we make?

Ephesians 2:2

Philippians 2:13

 

[sdowney717]

so we have no free will?

Did you will to be born?
Did you will to born again?

You did will to believe, but did so after experiencing the new birth and being taught by the Holy Spirit to come to Christ. Only after you believe are you sealed in the Holy Spirit, and that is your will, but the prime mover was God's will working in your life.

For example
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

You can not know, perceive, comprehend Christ without being first born of God.
Look at how the word 'see' is defined here in that verse, and tell me can you will to do and believe that which you can not perceive by yourself?

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

 

[victorinus]

We experience ourselves to be making free choices, but are we acting on our own, or is there a spiritual being in us effecting which choice we make?

you tell me -
I already know that I have free will

 

[victorinus]

Did you will to be born?
Did you will to born again?

that is nonsense

 

[sdowney717]

that is nonsense

So Christ is saying nonsense to you then?
You are a very shallow thinker, I think so.

 

[victorinus]

So Christ is saying nonsense to you then?

your questions are nonsense

 

[com7fy8]

We experience ourselves to be making free choices, but are we acting on our own, or is there a spiritual being in us effecting which choice we make?

you tell me -

Ephesians 2:2

Philippians 2:13

Also, we have Colossians 1:28-29

I already know that I have free will

It seems there are people who mean, by "free will", that they are totally in control of their own choices, and therefore they are in full separation from God having any management of their choices. If someone is so free from God, this is a problem.

Our Apostle Paul talks about how in sin we were "free in regard to righteousness" > in Romans 6:20. This is not a good way to have free will. Adam and Eve lost freedom, in their fall. In sin a person's freedom from God can have the person in selfish character which is the dictator of what the person chooses in one's free will.

But yes we do make choices and we will reap what we have been sowing. We will reap so much more than those tiny little seeds we have sown > Galatians 6:7-8. And, often enough, when we do make choices, we do not realize what will come because of what we have chosen

So, we are not really so free if we are so limited.

 

[victorinus]

It seems there are people who mean, by "free will", that they are totally in control of their own choices

yes

 

[Marvin Knox]

Anyone who says that we are totally free from God in the choices we make is reading a different set of scriptures than the 66 books we have in our Bibles.

No right thinking Christian can believe that our will is not influenced in many ways by God and (to a lessor degree) Satan.

Just how much influence is applied by God and/or Satan and when it is applied is a matter of some debate. But clearly no one is completely "free" but God Himself (and even He is influenced by His eternal nature).

When Reformed theologians say that everything which happens is "predestined" or "decreed" to happen - all they are affirming is a completely Biblical concept.

That is - that God knew, before there was anyone but Him in existence, everything which would ensue over time if He Himself acted in certain ways.

Whether we consider those God instituted actions to be primarily those we see Him doing in the history printed for us in the scriptures or if we include the innumerable actions which He takes every second of the day in every part of His creation - it is clear (if we believe in omniscience) that what God knew before the foundation of the world would happen if He so acted has and will really happen in history.

There can be and is some legitimate debate as to whether God has taken certain actions. But there can be no scripturally based objection as to the truth of the doctrine which teaches that God predestined or decreed all things which happen in His creation.

The only way there could be objection to that concept would be if the "creation" itself was completely independent of God's actions. That of course would deny what the scriptures tell us about God and His relationship with His creation. In point of fact - that would require that what we call the "creation" would actually be a "God" itself.

Since there was no one beside God when He chose to so act and since His actions were and are taken out of His own will and are not dictated by some other God - God Himself is the one who has decreed and predestined by His own actions everything which He knew would happen in His creation and has so happened.

So called "Calvinists" can be debated, perhaps successfully, concerning the truth of certain of their doctrines - but the doctrine of God's eternal decree concerning all that happens is not one of them.

Further --- God has clearly shown us that He not only knew what would happen if He acted and acts in the way He has and is. He has also given us examples where other things would surely happen if He acted in other ways than He has and will act.

That is to point out that what God "knew" in His omniscience would happen is dictated by what He Himself chooses to do. What He chooses to do could be undertaken completely independent of us or they can be influenced in some way by our actions according to what it means to be created in the image of God and able to make choices in conjunction with certain rules of interaction with us which He Himself has chosen to institute.

 

[victorinus]

calvinists are dangerous -
they have created confusion -
they have corrupted the meaning of words -
you can't even have a dialogue with them -
don't listen to them -
you are in charge of your destination -
it depends on what you do

 

[TheSeabass]

Merriam Webster dictionary:

Predetermine: to determine beforehand; to impose a direction or tendency on beforehand

Predestine: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand;

impose: to establish or apply by authority as a tax; to establish or bring about as if by force; to force into the company or on the attention of another impose oneself on others.

determine: to fix conclusively or authoritatively; to fix the form, position, or character of beforehand;

fix: to give a permanent or final form to


"God has "....unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass....."

ordained: to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law; It is futile to try to avoid what destiny has ordained


Therefore predetermined, before ordained means force where man has no choice when what he does has been forced upon him. It would be FUTILE to try and choose to do other than what has been ordained, fixed If God has FIXED what has happen then how can man choose to make his own choice to change what has been fixed? Man cannot. Or is Merriam Webster dictionary a straw man?

 

[com7fy8]

God has clearly shown us that He not only knew what would happen

I would say that there is only one way that you can know what will happen in the future, and this is if you have total control of what is going to happen

 

[Marvin Knox]

....................................It would be FUTILE to try and choose to do other than what has been ordained

Of course it would be futile.

But whatever you choose is what has been ordained to occur. God only ordains what will actually occur. He doesn't guess. He knows what will occur.

If God has FIXED what has happen then how can man choose to make his own choice to change what has been fixed? Man cannot.

You're right. Man cannot change what has be decreed to occur. But what has been decreed to occur is what man chooses. That's the point.

In predestination we are talking about what will actually occur. We are not talking about hypotheticals. God addresses hypotheticals in scripture. But not in the doctrine of predestination. Hypothetical occurrences are not occurrences which are decreed to occur.

If Israel would have allowed Christ to gather them to Himself as a hen gathers her chicks then Christ would have gathered them to Himself as a hen gathers her chicks.

They chose not to allow it.

Only the actual choice and not the hypothetical choice was decreed to occur.

While it is true that God has always known all hypotheticals - all hypotheticals were not predestined to occur. This fact seems a little silly to even have to be discussed IMO.

Of course man can't change what is predestined to occur. The only way that could happen is if God had just "pretty good guessing ability" and not omniscience.

............ is Merriam Webster dictionary a straw man?

No Merriam Webster is a dictionary. Unless it has the Spirit of God teaching it - it has no insight at all into how these things apply to God.