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Thanksgiving Day, and why America is different...

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by Avid, Nov 22, 2014.

  1. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

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    Many Americans might be surprised to learn that each of the early English colonies were sent with supplies and a charter that defined what they would do, so as to insure a return on investment (ROI) for the shareholders that paid for their passage, and supplied their effort.

    Similar to all the rest, the Pilgrims at Plymouth were under a "socialist charter" (under the Massachusetts Bay Company,) in 1620, which required them to all work for the value of return to the stockholders. They were to work as if employees of the company, and each would take a share of what was produced, after the company requirements were met. Their only motivation was getting there alive, and surviving till the next supply ship arrived. They almost starved trying to do things that way.

    Colony Governor, William Bradford, instituted an historic change that was to ensure the success of the colony, and changed American history. Each man in the colony that had survived till then (along with whatever family he had left) was given an equal share of the land and resources, and a different tack was attempted, seeing the other one nearly caused their total failure and death.

    Each signed in agreement to the new rules, and worked toward their goals from a direction that had not be attempted in such situations before. They abandoned the socialist ideas of how their agriculture would be produced, and started private planting practices. They established this change after they were there long enough to see they were all destined to starve the way things were established before.

    Here are Governor Bradford's own words about what they did from original documents:
    "This was very successful. It made all hands very industrious, so that much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor or any other could devise, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better satisfaction. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to plant corn, while before they would allege weakness and inability; and to have compelled them would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.

    The failure of this experiment of communal service, which was tried for several years, and by good and honest men, proves the emptiness of the theory of Plato and other ancients, applauded by some of later times--that the taking away of private property, and the possession of it in community, by a commonwealth, would make a state happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God. For in this instance, community of property (so far as it went) was found to breed much confusion and discontent and _r_e_t_a_r_d_ much employment which would have been to the general benefit and comfort."

    Most of what we were taught in school leaves out this important turning event in that colony, the unique nature of the change, and the amazing result it produced. This is the birth of the American free enterprise system.

    After that, there was always a bountiful harvest and plenty of return to the investors. In addition, the colonist had extra produce (often the "cash crop" of tobacco) to trade, and enriched their situation.

    This is, also, the basis of the only truly American holiday, Thanksgiving Day. More to come on that, but that was, ALSO, different than we were likely told in school.

    An earlier settlement in Virginia was required to have a day of thanksgiving to God upon their safe arrival in the New World. This they did, but the Thanksgiving Day celebration in Plymouth, a couple years later, was motivated in a different way, and had the connotation we attribute to our Truly American Holiday.
    - - - - - - -
    To explain the odd input in the Governor's nearly 400 year old quote, it is important to note that the insult to the mentally handicapped that has been used in the last 50 to 75 years was NOT the meaning of his phrase. He was discussing something that impeded the progress of work!

    Automatic censorship of certain words or phrases prevents legitimate use of proper words in their proper context. I had trouble like this on another Christian site while quoting the words of the Apostle Paul from scripture!
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
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  2. EdwinWillers

    EdwinWillers Well-Known Member

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    Good thread. :thumbsup:

    For anyone interested - here is the link for a PDF copy of William Bradford's Journal - "Of Plymouth Plantation" in which many of the quotes often cited reside: http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...dford-plimoth/bradford-plymouthplantation.pdf

    Some notables:
    and
    and
    From approx. page 163 of the original, page 235 of the PDF
     
  3. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

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    This says so much that too many people do not understand. Examples of this abound. Every time this was tried, it failed. Any communist regime has had its failing in a similar way. That there was enough of something else to keep some from completely disintegrating is amazing in the few places that have some sort of communism still active. Each needed to allow more freedom, or they would not have made it that far!

    The reason that Jamestown, VA, survived like this was because most of those there were military people. They lived under that type of authoritarian rule all the time. Still, they almost ALL starved! It is amazing that relief came before they were all dead from one thing or the other. More on that if you are not aware of that history, can be seen in a movie that was filmed a few miles from the actual events. That move is called, "The New World."

    The first Thanksgiving celebration was in a different English colony in VA, farther up the James River, and a decade later than Jamestown. They did not survive initially because of Indian attacks, and starvation. That site is currently maintained as the oldest continuously working plantation in the US. It is the site of the oldest three story brick house in America, and the home of numerous famous men of American history, including a signer of the Declaration of Independence, and a President of the US.

    House at Berkeley Plantation, Virginia.

    [​IMG]


    Site of The First Thanksgiving in VA, in 1619.

    [​IMG]
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
  4. EdwinWillers

    EdwinWillers Well-Known Member

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    Socialism, communism, Marxism, progressivism, liberalism, etc. and etc. have never worked, can never work, and will never work - if only for the simple reason that the moral code to which each ascribes is one of suicide "for the common good." Each ascribe to a moral code wherein the victims are sold a bill of goods, that suicide (in whatever form it may take) is the only "good," especially if it be on behalf of the subjective "needs" of others. Such a moral code feeds on the virtues of the victims, telling them they are guilty because of their virtues, thrusting upon them the tools of their own suicide, expecting them to use them. Fortunately, such a moral code only works as long as the victims permit such irrational guilt a hold over them, when reason takes over and they refuse to accept such a moral code reign over their lives.
     
  5. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

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    We are seeing a newer iteration being played out in the US these days. This latest installment is fraught with difficulty that will be our destruction. The latest "Transformation" may be the last straw, so to speak.
    .
     
  6. EdwinWillers

    EdwinWillers Well-Known Member

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    It certainly is a concern, though I don't think it's necessarily a "transformation" as much as it is a logical progression - albeit a progression to a level we've not experienced before.

    When the rule of law becomes entirely subjective, that is, when objective laws are abandoned in favor of subjective laws, then will we see the beginning of the end.

    Sadly, what Obama did this week heralded us much closer to that than we've ever been before.
     
  7. ThisBrotherOfHis

    ThisBrotherOfHis Well-Known Member

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    The systematic promotion of infantilism, theorizing the mature adult viewpoint will not trade his freedom or anyone else's for an artificial "safety net" and concluding this approach is unartful and without merit -- that people need someone to tell them what's good for them because left to their own devices they will make the wrong choices.

    Think of the child lost in the market immediately panicking and going hysterical with the predominate thought "I can't face the world alone!" This is irrational, because it can be safely assumed that 1) mom is not far away, and 2) she hasn't already forgotten her child.

    We get over that. We mature. We learn the skills and gain the knowledge that helps us realize that yes, we can -- we are intended to -- face this world alone, and succeed. This country was founded on, and became great practicing, the principles of individualism, entrepreneurship, and self-reliance that assure success through nothing more than the simple willingness to face life's obstacles, trials and genuine hardships like a grown-up, relying on one's own resources, and on what can be earned through one's own effort and voluntary productive interaction with others.

    Collectivist education has deliberately undermined this attitude, causing so-called "rugged individualism" to become known derogatorily as a selfish endeavor, rendering
    as nothing more than a parody, disreputable in nature, the characteristics upon which this nation has risen to the heights of a world power.

    <staff edit>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2014
  8. Hetta

    Hetta I'll find my way home

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    In what respect? You know, don't hint, be brave and actually type it out.
     
  9. conamer

    conamer Guest

    +0
  10. Savior2006

    Savior2006 Guest

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    I don't know anyone who has argued that the Pilgrims thought up the idea or drafted it. :confused:

    Personally, I like Thanksgiving. I don't celebrate it the way the Christian Right does and I don't celebrate it the way the Pilgrims did and never will.

    But that's what freedom of and from religion means. That means you can have your stories, fables, divine "morality," Trinity, and fire and brimstone and eternal punishment...while I get to have my PlayStation 4.
     
  11. conamer

    conamer Guest

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    I'm waiting for the price to drop to get a PS4. :sorry:
     
  12. Nithavela

    Nithavela Touch Fluffy Tail

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    Very good example of why a purely communistic societal order will always be problematic because of human nature.
     
  13. NamelessHero

    NamelessHero Living in the past, going nowhere fast

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    Edited
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
  14. ChristsSoldier115

    ChristsSoldier115 Mabaho na Kuya

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    People should be demanding other people to help each other. We shouldn't demand the government to do something we should be doing anyhow.
     
  15. ThisBrotherOfHis

    ThisBrotherOfHis Well-Known Member

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    You answered your own question. We should be doing it. That's what Jesus said. He didn't say "Give the government money to feed the poor." He said feed the poor.
     
  16. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    For such a tiny congregation, that was fine. They didn't have in mind to be a mighty nation stretching from sea to shining sea.
     
  17. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    The primary problem with the scheme was that the profits of the colony were not kept by the colony, but went to capitalists who didn't participate in the work.

    Am I the only person who noticed that?
     
  18. ChristsSoldier115

    ChristsSoldier115 Mabaho na Kuya

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    Yeah that was my point. :clap:

    It is our job to take care of each other. People have no excuse to not help anybody else. If they do, its a poor one.
     
  19. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

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    From William Bradford:
    “If all were to share alike, and all were to do alike, then all were on an equality throughout, and one was as good as another; and so, if it did not actually abolish those very relations which God himself has set among men, it did at least greatly diminish the mutual respect that is so important should be preserved amongst them. Let none argue that this is due to human failing, rather than to this communistic plan of life in itself…"
    .
     
  20. ThisBrotherOfHis

    ThisBrotherOfHis Well-Known Member

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    Irrelevant. The ability of a society to be free does not depend on its size.

    And the First Amendment does not guarantee you don't have to hear someone else's speech, nor witness the practice of their religion. It simply means they can speak, they can practice, and neither the government nor an individual has the right to interfere with the doing thereof.
     
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