Terrorist Attack on Britain

Oafman

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In what way?
We roll our tanks into villages, and when one of the villagers resists, we label them a terrorist, and we use that label to justify killing them, torturing them, or locking them up forever with no legal process.

We also now regularly define criminals as terrorists. Groups who kidnap westerners to 'sell' for ransom, with no political objective, are now terrorists.

The word has become close to meaningless, due to our redefinitions. We should go back to the time when a terrorist was someone who used violence to intimidate a population in order to achieve a political objective. The problem with that definition though, is that it includes some of our own actions.
 
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XB3LI3V3RX

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Oafman said:
We also now regularly define criminals as terrorists. Groups who kidnap westerners to 'sell' for ransom, with no political objective, are now terrorists.

What do you call that then if it isn't terrorism? Just wondering.
 
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Given how frequently Christians in the West complain about the treatment of other Christians in non-Western countries they weren't born in, I'm sure they know exactly what you mean.

lol

Except the cases are radically different.
Unless, of course, you can demonstrate that Western powers actually sponsor terrorism in "muslim countries" (which you apparently define as "anywhere that muslims decide is a muslim country").

Drone strikes. 'Nuff said.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, sit back and watch as this "lady" (using that term extremely lightly) is about to expand "terrorism" to mean exactly what she wants it to mean, conveniently including any kind of military operation by convention-bound armies into the term.
I'm just using the word terrorism as the west uses it (i.e. for basically everything violent). The only thing I'm making different is the fact that I'm excluding the words "committed by Muslims" and extending it to everyone instead.

But seriously, I think of what happened in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Palestine, etc. as terrorism. I don't use that word often because it's so vague but I do like to use it with those who use the word terrorism for things that Muslims do but rarely for what non-Muslims do (including governments).


Rather: It appears that it IS allowed, not by this single action, but by the consistent and constant stream of islamic terrorism that has infested the world for many decades now.

Oh, I guess the Muslim world has a new shaykh who will teach us our religion. What are your credentials, ya shaykh?

It also fits the ______ "koran" very well.
I will say this once. If you insult or mock my Prophet or God (or anything related to Islaam), I will not have a discussion with you. If you continue to insult or mock them, then I'm going to ignore you.

I didn't mock Jesus (peace be upon him), did I? Well, I can't since he's a revered prophet in Islaam. I didn't insult Paul, did I?


So if (God forbid) someone takes revenge for this atrocity on the first random muslim they encounter on the street, and someone else says: "Yeah, I don't OK what he/she did, but the muslims brought it on themselves", that's also not supporting it?
Bovine manure.
See earlier in the thread when someone mentioned the "excuse" that the US has.


If something doesn't work, change the definition!

Yep, that's Western policy! (I know you meant that for me, but just wait....I've got an article lined up after this post)
 
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(Glenn Greenwald is one of my favorite journalists)

Was the London killing of a British soldier 'terrorism'?

What definition of the term includes this horrific act of violence but excludes the acts of the US, the UK and its allies?



Two men yesterday engaged in a horrific act of violence on the streets of London by using what appeared to be a meat cleaver to hack to death a British soldier. In the wake of claims that the assailants shouted "Allahu Akbar" during the killing, and a video showing one of the assailants citing Islam as well as a desire to avenge and stop continuous UK violence against Muslims, media outlets (including the Guardian) and British politicians instantly characterized the attack as "terrorism".


That this was a barbaric and horrendous act goes without saying, but given the legal, military, cultural and political significance of the term "terrorism", it is vital to ask: is that term really applicable to this act of violence? To begin with, in order for an act of violence to be "terrorism", many argue that it must deliberately target civilians. That's the most common means used by those who try to distinguish the violence engaged in by western nations from that used by the "terrorists": sure, we kill civilians sometimes, but we don't deliberately target them the way the "terrorists" do.


But here, just as was true for Nidal Hasan's attack on a Fort Hood military base, the victim of the violence was a soldier of a nation at war, not a civilian. He was stationed at an army barracks quite close to the attack. The killer made clear that he knew he had attacked a soldier when he said afterward: "this British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."


The US, the UK and its allies have repeatedly killed Muslim civilians over the past decade (and before that), but defenders of those governments insist that this cannot be "terrorism" because it is combatants, not civilians, who are the targets. Can it really be the case that when western nations continuously kill Muslim civilians, that's not "terrorism", but when Muslims kill western soldiers, that is terrorism? Amazingly, the US has even imprisoned people at Guantanamo and elsewhere on accusations of "terrorism" who are accused of nothing more than engaging in violence against US soldiers who invaded their country.



It's true that the soldier who was killed yesterday was out of uniform and not engaged in combat at the time he was attacked. But the same is true for the vast bulk of killings carried out by the US and its allies over the last decade, where people are killed in their homes, in their cars, at work, while asleep (in fact, the US has re-defined "militant" to mean "any military-aged male in a strike zone"). Indeed, at a recent Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on drone killings, Gen. James Cartwright and Sen. Lindsey Graham both agreed that the US has the right to kill its enemies even while they are "asleep", that you don't "have to wake them up before you shoot them" and "make it a fair fight". Once you declare that the "entire globe is a battlefield" (which includes London) and that any "combatant" (defined as broadly as possible) is fair game to be killed - as the US has done - then how can the killing of a solider of a nation engaged in that war, horrific though it is, possibly be "terrorism"?



When I asked on Twitter this morning what specific attributes of this attack make it "terrorism" given that it was a soldier who was killed, the most frequent answer I received was that "terrorism" means any act of violence designed to achieve political change, or more specifically, to induce a civilian population to change their government or its policies of out fear of violence. Because, this line of reasoning went, one of the attackers here said that "the only reasons we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily" and warned that "you people will never be safe. Remove your government", the intent of the violence was to induce political change, thus making it "terrorism".


That is at least a coherent definition. But doesn't that then encompass the vast majority of violent acts undertaken by the US and its allies over the last decade? What was the US/UK "shock and awe" attack on Baghdad if not a campaign to intimidate the population with a massive show of violence into submitting to the invading armies and ceasing their support for Saddam's regime? That was clearly its functional intent and even its stated intent. That definition would also immediately include the massive air bombings of German cities during World War II. It would include the Central American civilian-slaughtering militias supported, funded and armed by the Reagan administration throughout the 1980s, the Bangledeshi death squads trained and funded by the UK, and countless other groups supported by the west that used violence against civilians to achieve political ends.


The ongoing US drone attacks unquestionably have the effect, and one could reasonably argue the intent, of terrorizing the local populations so that they cease harboring or supporting those the west deems to be enemies. The brutal sanctions regime imposed by the west on Iraq and Iran, which kills large numbers of people, clearly has the intent of terrorizing the population into changing its governments' policies and even the government itself. How can one create a definition of "terrorism" that includes Wednesday's London attack on this British soldier without including many acts of violence undertaken by the US, the UK and its allies and partners? Can that be done?


I know this vital caveat will fall on deaf ears for some, but nothing about this discussion has anything to do with justifiability. An act can be vile, evil, and devoid of justification without being "terrorism": indeed, most of the worst atrocities of the 20th Century, from the Holocaust to the wanton slaughter of Stalin and Pol Pot and the massive destruction of human life in Vietnam, are not typically described as "terrorism". To question whether something qualifies as "terrorism" is not remotely to justify or even mitigate it. That should go without saying, though I know it doesn't.


The reason it's so crucial to ask this question is that there are few terms - if there are any - that pack the political, cultural and emotional punch that "terrorism" provides. When it comes to the actions of western governments, it is a conversation-stopper, justifying virtually anything those governments want to do. It's a term that is used to start wars, engage in sustained military action, send people to prison for decades or life, to target suspects for due-process-free execution, shield government actions behind a wall of secrecy, and instantly shape public perceptions around the world. It matters what the definition of the term is, or whether there is a consistent and coherent definition. It matters a great deal.


There is ample scholarship proving that the term has no such clear or consistently applied meaning (see the penultimate section here, and my interview with Remi Brulin here). It is very hard to escape the conclusion that, operationally, the term has no real definition at this point beyond "violence engaged in by Muslims in retaliation against western violence toward Muslims". When media reports yesterday began saying that "there are indications that this may be act of terror", it seems clear that what was really meant was: "there are indications that the perpetrators were Muslims driven by political grievances against the west" (earlier this month, an elderly British Muslim was stabbed to death in an apparent anti-Muslim hate crime and nobody called that "terrorism"). Put another way, the term at this point seems to have no function other than propagandistically and legally legitimizing the violence of western states against Muslims while delegitimizing any and all violence done in return to those states.


One last point: in the wake of the Boston Marathon attacks, I documented that the perpetrators of virtually every recent attempted and successful "terrorist" attack against the west cited as their motive the continuous violence by western states against Muslim civilians. It's certainly true that Islam plays an important role in making these individuals willing to fight and die for this perceived just cause (just as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and nationalism lead some people to be willing to fight and die for their cause). But the proximate cause of these attacks are plainly political grievances: namely, the belief that engaging in violence against aggressive western nations is the only way to deter and/or avenge western violence that kills Muslim civilians.


Add the London knife attack on this soldier to that growing list. One of the perpetrators said on camera that "the only reason we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily" and "we apologize that women had to see this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same." As I've endlessly pointed out, highlighting this causation doesn't remotely justify the acts. But it should make it anything other than surprising. On Twitter last night, Michael Moore sardonically summarized western reaction to the London killing this way:
I am outraged that we can't kill people in other counties without them trying to kill us!"
Basic human nature simply does not allow you to cheer on your government as it carries out massive violence in multiple countries around the world and then have you be completely immune from having that violence returned.
Drone admissions

In not unrelated news, the US government yesterday admitted for the first time what everyone has long known: that it killed four Muslim American citizens with drones during the Obama presidency, including a US-born teenager whom everyone acknowledges was guilty of nothing. As Jeremy Scahill - whose soon-to-be-released film "Dirty Wars" examines US covert killings aimed at Muslims - noted yesterday about this admission, it "leaves totally unexplained why the United States has killed so many innocent non-American citizens in its strikes in Pakistan and Yemen". Related to all of these issues, please watch this two-minute trailer for "Dirty Wars", which I reviewed a few weeks ago here:

[can't insert video without disrupting the rest of my text. If you would like to watch the trailer, please go to the Guardian link provided at the end]

Note

The headline briefly referred to the attack as a "machete killing", which is how initial reports described it, but the word "machete" was deleted to reflect uncertainty over the exact type of knife use. As the first paragraph now indicates, the weapon appeared to be some sort of meat cleaver.
 
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UPDATE

In the Guardian today, former British soldier Joe Glenton, who served in the war in Afghanistan, writes under the headline "Woolwich attack: of course British foreign policy had a role". He explains:
"While nothing can justify the savage killing in Woolwich yesterday of a man since confirmed to have been a serving British soldier, it should not be hard to explain why the murder happened. . . . It should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home. We need to recognise that, given the continued role our government has chosen to play in the US imperial project in the Middle East, we are lucky that these attacks are so few and far between."
This is one of those points so glaringly obvious that it is difficult to believe that it has to be repeated.

Was the London killing of a British soldier 'terrorism'? | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
 
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All Englands Skies

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Given how frequently Christians in the West complain about the treatment of other Christians in non-Western countries they weren't born in, I'm sure they know exactly what you mean.


But where are the Christians in the west being radicalised, planted bombs and chopping people up?

Even Anders Breivik was about "defending europe" in his own twisted way than lets say, "avenging copts in Egypt"

You use this point against us, when it actually supports is, we have all the same ingredients to start resorting to terrorism against muslims as they have when they resort to terrorism against us. Yet we dont, which was the point i as originally making, which you overlook as as usual as you're pre-programmed to defend the Muslim side of the arguement, even though its clear her constant attempts to defend and justify what terrorists are doing. Odd that she always posts arguements which basically paint the non-muslims as the "bad guys" over and over. completely dismissing Islam is the common trait amongst these people. (years of PC and multiculturalism have led to that psych)

Yet I fail to see countless UK Christians becoming radicalised and resorting to planning murder and atrocities and if they are, show examples.
 
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Gadarene

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But where are the Christians in the west being radicalised, planted bombs and chopping people up?

Even Anders Breivik was about "defending europe" in his own twisted way than lets say, "avenging copts in Egypt"

You use this point against us, when it actually supports is, we have all the same ingredients to start resorting to terrorism against muslims as they have when they resort to terrorism against us. Yet we dont, which was the point i as originally making, which you overlook as as usual as you're pre-programmed to defend the Muslim side of the arguement, even though its clear her constant attempts to defend and justify what terrorists are doing. Odd that she always posts arguements which basically paint the non-muslims as the "bad guys" over and over. completely dismissing Islam is the common trait amongst these people. (years of PC and multiculturalism have led to that psych)

Yet I fail to see countless UK Christians becoming radicalised and resorting to planning murder and atrocities and if they are, show examples.

Which has nothing to do with the point I was making - it was only to demonstrate that it is possible for religious ties to transcend nationality, which was something you hadn't appeared to have considered.

On the contrary, Breivik cited several right wing commenters in his manifesto to justify what he did (including several uk commentators like Melanie Phillips) , but when it's white conservatives speaking in this country they are (rightly) treated as individuals and not treated wholesale with suspicion.

The key is to be consistent and treat Muslims the same way - as individuals, not stereotypes.
 
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All Englands Skies

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Which has nothing to do with the point I was making - it was only to demonstrate that it is possible for religious ties to transcend nationality, which was something you hadn't appeared to have considered.

On the contrary, Breivik cited several right wing commenters in his manifesto to justify what he did (including several uk commentators like Melanie Phillips) , but when it's white conservatives speaking in this country they are (rightly) treated as individuals and not treated wholesale with suspicion.

The key is to be consistent and treat Muslims the same way - as individuals, not stereotypes.

Consistency works both ways, which was the point I was making, Muslims get outraged when the consider themselves to be victims, but overlook the fact many Muslims sit on the side of the fence of being the oppressor, but they ignore that, if they were consistent, people like muslimah would realise they're in no position to get on there high horse.

Look at her posts, most of them are excuse making and vain attempts to justify and make out its understandible what these nutcases do.

On the other hand, you see me as the big bad guy, yet I dont and wouldnt msake excuses for any Christian who used violence, if a Muslim was killed by a Christian tommorow, I wouldnt start posting articles attempting to blame "policies of Muslim nations for driving the christian to do this", citing laws against converts and blashpemy laws as justification, id think there was no excuse.
 
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Gadarene said:
The key is to be consistent and treat Muslims the same way - as individuals, not stereotypes.

I can view Muslims as individuals and nonetheless view Islam as a barbarous creed and a destructive influence on those who follow it.
 
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Gadarene

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Consistency works both ways, which was the point I was making, Muslims get outraged when the consider themselves to be victims, but overlook the fact many Muslims sit on the side of the fence of being the oppressor, but they ignore that, if they were consistent, people like muslimah would realise they're in no position to get on there high horse.

Look at her posts, most of them are excuse making and vain attempts to justify and make out its understandible what these nutcases do.

You make this assertion again but post nothing to back it up.

And let's be clear about this - you didn't just accuse LBAM of being on her high horse, you accused her of being "one of them."

This is exactly the problem here, in a nutshell. Native white British says something, well, they're "one of us" - what they say isn't automatically taken as representative of the entire white community. Non-white person says something - oh, well - they're "one of them".

Even though LBAM has defended her background and her beliefs in exactly the same fashion as we do ours, she is automatically suspect because she's seen as not one of us.

On the other hand, you see me as the big bad guy, yet I dont and wouldnt msake excuses for any Christian who used violence, if a Muslim was killed by a Christian tommorow, I wouldnt start posting articles attempting to blame "policies of Muslim nations for driving the christian to do this", citing laws against converts and blashpemy laws as justification, id think there was no excuse.
No, you wouldn't make excuses for the individual Christians, but then again, nor is she. And you have yet to post any evidence that she is.

If someone like me started posting about how individual acts of violence prove that Christianity is nothing but hate (I'll refer you to the Nigerian Christians attacking Muslims if you really want to do this, not that this is actually my point), I suspect you or at least some Christians here would launch into yet another one of your tedious rants about liberals trying to make Christians out to be the bad guys, or claim that they're not really true Christians. (We've already seen that done in this thread.)

You just condemned this kind of thinking yesterday (blaming the west for stuff that gets done to us) and then immediately blamed people like me for these things happening. You went about an hour before tripping over your own hypocrisy.

All LBAM and I are saying is that the rhetoric being used by the oh-so-outraged types like you is exactly the same as the sort being used on the other side and doesn't actually demonstrate what you think it does. You don't like being judged by the worst of your kind? Ok, fine. Then quit doing the same to other people. Because that's what LBAM has been responding to this entire time.

We can stop playing this who-started-it-first game and judging entire groups of people by their crappiest members and analyse the behaviour that led us to this point without blaming the other side entirely while pretending we're whiter than white; or we can let hysteria, paranoia, jingoism, blame and prejudice rule the roost and be at each other's throats ad infinitum.
 
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Gadarene

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I can view Muslims as individuals and nonetheless view Islam as a barbarous creed and a destructive influence on those who follow it.

Well, if it's any consolation, I think both beliefs are wrong and generally could do with a reduction in overall influence.

And I don't get bogged down in this whole "this is the true belief" silliness - the arguments for each person's claims are subjective as heck. When it's made against members of the same religion, it's just a battle of egos. When it's made against members of other religions, you have this surreality where someone who thinks the religion it's wrong from top to bottom still thinks it has a true meaning. But I leave doublethink to religionists, for the most part.

As far as I'm concerned, we have to live with a bunch of people who go about cherry-picking their holy books and have convinced themselves they are not, and it's not always clear whether they're going to be harmless or outright regressive.

I hope for a more reliable method for improving society than that. :)
 
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All Englands Skies

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You make this assertion again but post nothing to back it up.

And let's be clear about this - you didn't just accuse LBAM of being on her high horse, you accused her of being "one of them."

This is exactly the problem here, in a nutshell. Native white British says something, well, they're "one of us" - what they say isn't automatically taken as representative of the entire white community. Non-white person says something - oh, well - they're "one of them".

Even though LBAM has defended her background and her beliefs in exactly the same fashion as we do ours, she is automatically suspect because she's seen as not one of us.

No, you wouldn't make excuses for the individual Christians, but then again, nor is she. And you have yet to post any evidence that she is.

If someone like me started posting about how individual acts of violence prove that Christianity is nothing but hate (I'll refer you to the Nigerian Christians attacking Muslims if you really want to do this, not that this is actually my point), I suspect you or at least some Christians here would launch into yet another one of your tedious rants about liberals trying to make Christians out to be the bad guys, or claim that they're not really true Christians. (We've already seen that done in this thread.)

You just condemned this kind of thinking yesterday (blaming the west for stuff that gets done to us) and then immediately blamed people like me for these things happening. You went about an hour before tripping over your own hypocrisy.

All LBAM and I are saying is that the rhetoric being used by the oh-so-outraged types like you is exactly the same as the sort being used on the other side and doesn't actually demonstrate what you think it does. You don't like being judged by the worst of your kind? Ok, fine. Then quit doing the same to other people. Because that's what LBAM has been responding to this entire time.

We can stop playing this who-started-it-first game and judging entire groups of people by their crappiest members and analyse the behaviour that led us to this point without blaming the other side entirely while pretending we're whiter than white; or we can let hysteria, paranoia, jingoism, blame and prejudice rule the roost and be at each other's throats ad infinitum.


I aint judging an entire group, I was mainly making the assertian about her, proving such ideology is more wide-spread than people want to admit.

The Muslims I worked with, wouldnt even entertain the idea, thus I know not all Muslims are the same. Theres another Muslim bloke on this forum who I dont usually agree with, but his condemnation of events like these seems real, while Muslimahs always seems false, like shes just ready to gear up with the propoganda.

In reality the way out of this would be for people to not go down the route of victimhood, as in people condemn violence against all people and not just centred on their "own". But with extremists, they cant be reasoned with as they get outraged over when they feel they're getting the rough end of the stick, but then actually feel they are justified in using violence against others.

Its like most of the Muslim extremists who say persecution of Muslims is what causes them to act violently are in-tune with the groups who murder Copic Christians in Egypt for no reason other than they are Christian, so how can the honestly say they care about "persecution"?

Like Anders Brievik, supposedly saving Europe from Muslims who are turning "Europe into a war zone", by planting bombs and using semi-automatic rifles upon people?, wasnt he turning it into a warzone himself?, yet its like they're blind to that.
 
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Gadarene

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I aint judging an entire group, I was mainly making the assertian about her, proving such ideology is more wide-spread than people want to admit.

The Muslims I worked with, wouldnt even entertain the idea, thus I know not all Muslims are the same. Theres another Muslim bloke on this forum who I dont usually agree with, but his condemnation of events like these seems real, while Muslimahs always seems false, like shes just ready to gear up with the propoganda.

In reality the way out of this would be for people to not go down the route of victimhood, as in people condemn violence against all people and not just centred on their "own". But with extremists, they cant be reasoned with as they get outraged over when they feel they're getting the rough end of the stick, but then actually feel they are justified in using violence against others.

Its like most of the Muslim extremists who say persecution of Muslims is what causes them to act violently are in-tune with the groups who murder Copic Christians in Egypt for no reason other than they are Christian, so how can the honestly say they care about "persecution"?

Like Anders Brievik, supposedly saving Europe from Muslims who are turning "Europe into a war zone", by planting bombs and using semi-automatic rifles upon people?, wasnt he turning it into a warzone himself?, yet its like they're blind to that.

You can still think something is wrong and be tired of fallback you know is headed for your group, which it already blatantly is.

Beyond that, she isn't doing anything different that Christians here and elsewhere don't do on a regular basis with regard to their own beliefs when challenged, or when someone in the group does something stupid. I don't particularly buy the lines about particular interpretations being true belief, but I'm not using the existence of the negative interpretations of either group to dismiss the entire belief system or the people that hold to it.

It's a matter of simple observation that a huge diversity of opinion exists on both Christianity and Islam, and it's daft to judge the majority by the existence of the idiots. I think it has implications for the validity of both beliefs, but it doesn't justify any social kickback towards either.
 
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Nick316

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Apparently some people are incapable of refraining from insults. Does it physically hurt to have a relatively respectful conversation or something? Oh well, not my loss.

And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Qur'ān) that when you hear the Verses of Allāh being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allāh will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell, (An-Nisa 4:140)

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."
 
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TheDag

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Armed police can shoot innocent bystanders just as well.
except this ignores armed police have special training to take those things into consideration. How often in a siege do you see police just running in guns blazing as opposed to siege lasting for hours because they try to bring a peaceful solution about first. General populace don't receive that training. Heck one friend posted a picture of bullet damage to their car which happened at a firing range. That is careless shooting after all the cars are not parked behind the targets.
 
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TheQuietRiot

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1: I didn't insult you. Unless, of course, you consider pointing out facts (pedophile merchant) and expressing disbelief in the koran (drug-induced ramblings) "insults".
Which, given the general sense of entitlement among muslims in the West, wouldn't surprise me.

2: I will not refrain from calling black black, and white white.

3: If I owned a Winnie the Pooh-book, I'd reply with a quote from that, to match yours.
The value of those two stories are roughly similar....
Well, strike that...Winnie the Pooh doesn't, in and of itself, risk leading to idolatry.

It's very amusing to see religious believers of different religions insult one another in a display of arrogance due to their belief they and they alone hold the Truth TM.

You can't all be right.

But you can all be wrong! :)
 
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TheQuietRiot

indomitable
Aug 17, 2011
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The horror of the terrorist attack on Lee Rigby who died on a London street, while Londoners watched, videoed, uploaded, Tweeted, wrote rap songs about it, but did not help him, while there wasn't a disarmed cop in sight, is to serve also as a reminder of what could happen in America. If we the people allow our government to disarm us, the way our allies government disarmed the people of England and including their police!

Because of course in America no horrific terrorist attacks like this happen because your all tooled up to the nines with firearms and can prevent tragedies like this from happening...

Do you have an idea how ridiculous you sound?

If these murderers had access exceptional killing tools such as firearms and the same religiously fueled motive who knows how much more damage they could have caused. They could have shot down droves of people, or turned the high street into a shooting gallery.

You lose 30,000 of your own countrymen, women and children every year to firearm related deaths. We don't want that here thankyou very much.

We didn't return the favor. And now Osama is in Hell, not paradise. As it should be.

Actually, if his religion is correct he is in paradise and us kuffars are bound for hell.
 
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