BobRyan

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Well, if the other party failed to address the real issue in his or her post but instead filled it up with extraneous stuff and Bible verses that do not apply...then the reply that comes back is likely not to be what the first writer was hoping for (the discussion being diverted to some other topic, that is). ;)

Which gets us back to this... where the details are addressed.

1. I agree that some list would need to be posted in that case making the Bible case for Sunday -
2. I agree that if not posted on this thread - then posting a link to them on some other website is at least a start.
3. I agree that the link you posted does present a fairly good example of whatever case can be had in that regard.
4. I also agree that a post addressing each of the points made there (some something like this one..
Yesterday at 8:27 PM #521 posted on this same thread) Would then be needed.

I do not agree that the response to that link "ignores the NT" or even requires that one ignore the NT.

I also note that at least half of the points made at that website are also arguments against Section 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith in its affirmation of the Ten Commandments.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It sounds like you take the position, that a lot of scholars do, that it refers to a hand-written certificate of bond, or in other words, blotting out the debt to sin? Some newer version are translating certificate of debt on the basis of evidence of that meaning from other koine sources.
For me personally, I believe that Colossians 2:14 does have application to certificate of dept (our sins and Christ purchasing them through His death) although I do believe it also has application to the "shadow laws" in ordinances or the whole sacrificial system of the old covenant being the chapter context as Christ death was the fulfillment of the sacrificial laws for remission of sin. Christ death therefore is not separate from the Mosiac laws for remission of sins it is the fulfilled of these laws therefore nailed to the cross. If Colossians 2:14 was solely an application to the penalty of sin and not also the fulfillment of the sacrificial system that pointed to Christ in this scripture I think the Greek word κρίμα (kríma G2917) would have been used which means a judgement of condemnation received against a crime committed but it isn't. Instead the Greek word δόγμα (dógma G1378) is used which means a civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law or the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity of threatened judgment if sinned is not atoned for. I believe the latter includes the whole ceremonial sacrificial system and the penalty of sin (certificate of debt) being nailed to the cross. For me I am happy with the old translations and do not really have much faith in the new. But hey, you can have a perfect translation like the Jews did and still not know God's Word if God's spirit is not your guide and teacher.

Take Care.
 
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tall73

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exactly!

The "speeding ticket - paid" not the "speed limit deleted"

Agreed, it completes the thought in the first part of the sentence:

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

 
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Icyspark

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Well, if the other party failed to address the real issue in his or her post but instead filled it up with extraneous stuff and Bible verses that do not apply...then the reply that comes back is likely not to be what the first writer was hoping for (the discussion being diverted to some other topic, that is). ;)


Hi Albion,

I'm beginning to see a trend here. You never supplied your own rationale as to why you superimpose Sunday over the Sabbath. You claimed biblical "authorization" for Sunday observance but you could never supply this evidence yourself, insisting that others find the evidence for themselves. Then, finally, you posted a link which you claimed would answer all our questions. I and others have responded to some of the issues raised on that site. What has been your response? Deflection and denial. Isn't that what you were insisting would be the response of Seventh-day Adventists? Don't claim others are "hoping the discussion being diverted to some other topic," when it appears that you're the one embracing said hope.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Albion

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Hi Albion,

I'm beginning to see a trend here. You never supplied your own rationale as to why you superimpose Sunday over the Sabbath. You claimed biblical "authorization" for Sunday observance but you could never supply this evidence yourself...

It's been done enough. And I have no idea why you want to start all over again at the beginning of the same argument--to be followed by another 500 inconclusive posts that repeat what was in the previous several run-throughs. At least that's how I look at it.

Cheers
 
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Icyspark

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It's been done enough. And I have no idea why you want to start all over again at the beginning of the same argument--to be followed by another 500 inconclusive posts that repeat what was in the previous several run-throughs. At least that's how I look at it.

Cheers


Hi Albion,

So you say. I'm relatively new here so to tell me "It's been done enough," is like acknowledging there's no point for you to be on this forum at all. After over 100,000 posts what's left for you to say? From what icy in your posts there's really very little thought given to your responses. I'd imagine that if one is posting strictly for numbers that posts with little effort provide the path of least resistance.

A thoughtful and honest approach to the Scriptures doesn't have to end in "inconclusive posts." It's only inconclusive if one is unwilling to honestly examine what the Scriptures plainly teach without tenaciously clinging to preconceived ideas.

If you've ever participated in an actual dialog on the issues that you're so dismissive of then I'd imagine you could point us to those discussions and not have to rehash them again. What I'm surmising is that you've never done this and it's just easier to be dismissive and continue with your hollow accusations. Why participate on a thread in which you don't plan to actually engage in the discussion?

In post 316 you jumped into the discussion and asserted, "It doesn't do much to explain why a small segment of organized Christianity is determined that going to church on Sunday is the worst transgression imaginable, even though the Bible authorizes it." When asked for where you find this authorization you've since hemmed and hawed, zigged and zagged, insisting that you can't engage in any discussion because "... every other SDA who takes to social media to debate this issue, ... already know the verses and are simply waiting for me to point to it so that you can then reject it." Seems rather convenient (and unlikely) as it appears that you're in the position you are projecting onto SDAs.

Just to recap. You have no authorization for Sunday observance and you are the one who is rejecting all the verses that reveal this fact.

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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tall73

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It's been done enough. And I have no idea why you want to start all over again at the beginning of the same argument--to be followed by another 500 inconclusive posts that repeat what was in the previous several run-throughs. At least that's how I look at it.

Cheers

These threads can seem like they never end (And there is always a new one when they do end). And those who see the Sabbath as important for Christians today have often spent years discussing the details of the texts involved. So it can seem overwhelming to go through each response from 10 different people, and address their points.

But if you are going to discuss it in a way that lends credibility to your view, then I think you do need to do more than one pass on each text, or just posting them with a position statement about them. You have to respond to follow-ups that point out details regarding the text that your position statement didn't address, or that it addressed, but you need to clarify.

When you post a text that you see conveying important information about the subject, then others take that seriously by looking at all the aspects of that text, that is not a distraction. That is seeing whether your claim of the import of the text matches with the details of the text itself.

In most of these discussions on a particular text touching on the Sabbath question it is not until the second or third round of post-and-response that you get a clear understanding of how each side views the various aspects of the text, so that those can be further clarified and tested against what the text says.

If there are two different positions on the same text, then both cannot be correct (or if one is alleging both can they have to explain how). But as more and more of the aspects of the text are examined it is usually seen that one or the other view matches up with the text, or that neither does.

So discussing the context of Col. 2 for, instance, is important to understanding the portion that mentions sabbaths. @HIM responding to you regarding the context was not a distraction, but was taking seriously the post your put forward, and was an invitation to see whether you agreed with his take on the context, or had other information to offer. The context of a passage has bearing on the meaning. If you won't address his comment that indicates the context is not in line with your interpretation, then you are not addressing fully the arguments about the meaning.

Colossians 2 is a rather complex text for a few reasons. While I recognize that, as you stated, your view does not depend on just one text, it is true that Col. 2 is an important text in the debate. It might be helpful to start a thread just on that scripture and go through all the data.

If you want I could start a thread and list some of the various issues that each side needs to address about the meaning of the text. On a forum you have no obligation to engage in that sort of discussion on the details. But it does impact how people receive your arguments.

As someone who has changed views on the subject, and looked at it a fair amount, I have learned a lot in discussion of the text, whichever side of the debate I fell on at the time. And while I don't recommend forming views about the text in the context of heated debate, I do think that discussing the details in such debates can help point out issues you may need to re-think, or explain more fully. And in the end it is a chance to think through more of Scripture, which is a blessing even if some of the process is not.
 
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Albion

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So it can seem overwhelming to go through each response from 10 different people, and address their points.

But if you are going to discuss it in a way that lends credibility to your view, then I think you do need to do more than one pass on each text, or just posting them with a position statement about them.
I hear you, but there is nothing that can "lend credibility" when the other side's approach is to use some sort of tag team approach with one after another Sabbatarian starting over from the beginning with the same pre-set sequence of Q's and A's that have already been fielded several times over. The Bible verses have been identified and, by and large, ignored. Or else said not to exist.

But if someone else, perhaps someone who hasn't been through it all before, wants to take over at this point, they are free to give it a "go."
 
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tall73

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But if someone else, perhaps someone who hasn't been through it all before, wants to take over at this point, they are free to give it a "go."

It is true for me as well that there is a tolerance level for this sort of discussion. Sometimes you need to just step away for a while.
 
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BobRyan

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The Bible verses have been identified and, by and large, ignored.

Until you take the time to read this post -- Friday at 8:27 PM #521 about 30 posts ago.

Of course since you never actually bothered to post your list of sunday texts here on this thread at all -- I don't blame others for not going to some other website to get its list and respond here on this thread - as you seem to have been suggesting that they do.

You spend more time making posts when on subjects such as this thread topic - posting that you already did something somewhere if someone else could just go and find it - (many of those kinds of posts) -- rather than just outright posting whatever you think was the amazing info ..

In any case - I did that for you on this thread in post 521 and responded to them all -- just to make sure all bases are covered.
 
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Freth

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If one were so inclined, an extensive index could be compiled of the many posts on this website that have addressed verses concerning opposition to seventh-day Sabbath observance. Verses are being addressed in great detail. Context is being shown. Exposition is being given. Positions are being backed with multiple verses from throughout the Bible. So rich are many of the posts that they could be used as Bible study guides (I'm speaking of other members, not myself).

Scriptural truth shouldn't be dismissed based on who it comes from. If it's the truth, then it stands regardless of who posted it. Likewise, all can err, and should welcome correction as a chance to learn and grow.
 
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splish- splash

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So is there a special reason for not Carrying out the sabbath sacrifices alongside? Because here Sabbath keepers have just picked out a day, but have left out all the rituals that should go along with observing the sabbath. Because you cannot just pick & choose what you want to follow. I am referring to the verse below.

Numbers 28
New International Version

Daily Offerings
28 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Give this command to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Make sure that you present to me at the appointed time my food offerings, as an aroma pleasing to me.’ 3 Say to them: ‘This is the food offering you are to present to the Lord: two lambs a year old without defect, as a regular burnt offering each day. 4 Offer one lamb in the morning and the other at twilight,5 together with a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with a quarter of a hin of oil from pressed olives.6 This is the regular burnt offering instituted at Mount Sinai as a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the Lord. 7 The accompanying drink offering is to be a quarter of a hin of fermented drink with each lamb. Pour out the drink offering to the Lord at the sanctuary. 8 Offer the second lamb at twilight, along with the same kind of grain offering and drink offering that you offer in the morning. This is a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

Sabbath Offerings
9 “‘On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil. 10 This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
 
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BobRyan

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So is there a special reason for not Carrying out the sabbath sacrifices alongside? Because here Sabbath keepers have just picked out a day, but have left out all the rituals that should go along with observing the sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - there we have the Sabbath for mankind - how many "rituals" do you see there?

Is 66:23 says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross - how many of the rituals that you listed do you think exist in the New Earth?

Heb 10 says that all sacrifices and offering end at the cross - how many rituals did you list - that are not animal sacrifices and offerings?

No wonder both the "Baptist confession of Faith - section 19" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith - Section 19" freely admit that the Sabbath Commandment (in fact all TEN of the commandments) continue on even without animal sacrifices and grain offerings.
 
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prodromos

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Gen 2:1-3 - there we have the Sabbath for mankind - how many "rituals" do you see there?
None. No remembering the Sabbath, no resting on the Sabbath, nothing at all for mankind.
 
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prodromos

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Is 66:23 says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross - how many of the rituals that you listed do you think exist in the New Earth?
Are we in the new Earth yet?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So is there a special reason for not Carrying out the sabbath sacrifices alongside? Because here Sabbath keepers have just picked out a day, but have left out all the rituals that should go along with observing the sabbath. Because you cannot just pick & choose what you want to follow. I am referring to the verse below.

Numbers 28
New International Version

Daily Offerings
28 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Give this command to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Make sure that you present to me at the appointed time my food offerings, as an aroma pleasing to me.’ 3 Say to them: ‘This is the food offering you are to present to the Lord: two lambs a year old without defect, as a regular burnt offering each day. 4 Offer one lamb in the morning and the other at twilight,5 together with a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with a quarter of a hin of oil from pressed olives.6 This is the regular burnt offering instituted at Mount Sinai as a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the Lord. 7 The accompanying drink offering is to be a quarter of a hin of fermented drink with each lamb. Pour out the drink offering to the Lord at the sanctuary. 8 Offer the second lamb at twilight, along with the same kind of grain offering and drink offering that you offer in the morning. This is a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

Sabbath Offerings
9 “‘On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil. 10 This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

Has post nothing to do with God's 4th commandment in the new covenant. The laws for remission of sins were linked to everyday of the week *Numbers 28:3-8 under the Mosaic covenant, not just God's 4th commandments. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant and the laws for remission of sins are now fulfilled in Christ and continued in Him (see John 1:29; Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath of creation *Genesis 2:1-3 was made before sin, before law, before God's plan of salvation was given for all mankind, before Moses, before Israel, before the Jews, and before the shadow laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices of the old covenant and continues into the new covenant and new heavens and new earth after the second coming as an everlasting covenant to all of Gods' people who are now all those who believe and follow what God's Word says. God's 4th commandments is also one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and according to James if we knowingly *James 4:17 break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11; see also 1 John 3:4.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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None. No remembering the Sabbath, no resting on the Sabbath, nothing at all for mankind.
According to the scriptures the Sabbath was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. Jesus says that the Sabbath, which was made, for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. There was only Adam and Eve created on the "sixth day" of the creation week made in the image of God *Genesis 1:26-31.

Take Care
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Are we in the new Earth yet?
You missed the point. The Sabbath will be continued to be kept in the new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23) because the Sabbath is a sign that God is our savior *Exodus 31:13 and an everlasting covenant to Gods' people that we worship the only true God of creation *Exodus 31:16.

Take Care.
 
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prodromos

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According to the scriptures the Sabbath was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. Jesus says that the Sabbath, which was made, for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. There was only Adam and Eve created on the "sixth day" of the creation week made in the image of God *Genesis 1:26-31.

Take Care
Adam and Eve were only given one commandment, and it did not involve the Sabbath.
 
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