Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[Icyspark]

I'd be more inclined to ask why the New Testament isn't considered to be the word of God by people who go to great lengths to argue that whatever the Old Testament said is eternally true and binding.

But whenever that's asked, no Sabbatarians will admit to what their analysis amounts to.

Hi Albion,

In 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 Paul writes: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Since there was no other Scripture than what we call the Old Testament then it is apparent that Paul is identifying the Old Testament Scripture as being in the present tense. No Seventh-day Adventist dismisses any of the New Testament or considers it anything less than "the Word of God." We take the Bible as a whole unit--just as Paul did.

God bless!

Icyspark

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hi bbbbbbbb,

Is God commands you to kill someone is it still murder? Iow, are you sinning?

God bless!

Icyspark

You evaded my question. Does God command His people to break the Sabbath? I provided just one example from scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hi Albion,

In 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 Paul writes: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Since there was no other Scripture than what we call the Old Testament then it is apparent that Paul is identifying the Old Testament Scripture as being in the present tense. No Seventh-day Adventist dismisses any of the New Testament or considers it anything less than "the Word of God." We take the Bible as a whole unit--just as Paul did.

God bless!

Icyspark

The problem, of course, is that you, as well as many other Christians, do not embrace the entire Old Testament as literal truth and commandments to be obeyed, but selectively pick and choose what you deem relevant. In your case, you are particularly egregious in selectively picking out the Ten Commandments and variations of the dietary law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The problem, of course, is that you, as well as many other Christians, do not embrace the entire Old Testament as literal truth and commandments to be obeyed, but selectively pick and choose what you deem relevant. In your case, you are particularly egregious in selectively picking out the Ten Commandments and variations of the dietary law.

From this post it appears you agree with the literal commandments in the Old Testament, so I would assume you embrace God's Ten Commandments that was spoken and written by God. Weird you seem to argue against the Ten commandments from the posts I have seen.

Also do you understand the difference between the Old and New Covenant?

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion,

In 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 Paul writes: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Since there was no other Scripture than what we call the Old Testament then it is apparent that Paul is identifying the Old Testament Scripture as being in the present tense. No Seventh-day Adventist dismisses any of the New Testament or considers it anything less than "the Word of God." We take the Bible as a whole unit--just as Paul did.

God bless!

Hi, Icyspark. We here have gone round and round on this issue before on what seems like a large number of nearly identical discussions.

The SDAs cite OT passages and say that they are authoritative and eternally binding. When it's pointed out that Christ founded a new church--according to the NT--and that there is much in the NT which teaches us that some of the rules in the OT could be modified as a result, the discussion grinds to a halt. From the POV of most Christians, the NT is as true, is as much divine revelation, and etc. as is the OT.

But SDAs at that point either pretend that they don't know of any NT verses that are applicable (although they are ready to go with a rebuttal if they have them brought up by quoting chapter and verse) or reiterate that what's in the OT is God's inflexible rule, thus denying the authority of the NT. So it goes nowhere.

I probably shouldn't bother recounting all that history, but it might save us some time now; and you might profit from knowing where this is going before we repeat all those steps once again and do it with the same result.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi, Icyspark. We here have gone round and round on this issue before on what seems like a large number of nearly identical discussions.

The SDAs cite OT passages and say that they are authoritative and eternally binding. When it's pointed out that Christ founded a new church--according to the NT--and that there is much in the NT which teaches us that some of the rules in the OT could be modified as a result, the discussion grinds to a halt. From the POV of most Christians, the NT is as true, is as much divine revelation, and etc. as is the OT.

But SDAs at that point either pretend that they don't know of any NT verses that are applicable (although they are ready to go with a rebuttal if they have them brought up by quoting chapter and verse) or reiterate that what's in the OT is God's inflexible rule, thus denying the authority of the NT. So it goes nowhere.

I probably shouldn't bother recounting all that history, but it might save us some time now; and you might profit from knowing where this is going before we repeat all those steps once again and do it with the same result.

Would seem easy enough to prove, but I see you provided only your opinion and no scripture stating that the 4th commandment is deleted and we are now to worship God on a new day and God blessed and made holy this new day. I sure don't see this in any scriptures. Maybe we are not the ones who are pretending, because you never seem to quote scripture or challenge the plain scripture written in God's Word both in Old and New Testament about the Sabbath being the commandment and still God's holy Sabbath day that God's saints will be worshipping the Lord for eternity on the Sabbath day Isaiah 66:23 as promised by God Exodus 31:16-17.

 

[bbbbbbb]

From this post it appears you agree with the literal commandments in the Old Testament, so I would assume you embrace God's Ten Commandments that was spoken and written by God. Weird you seem to argue against the Ten commandments from the posts I have seen.

Also do you understand the difference between the Old and New Covenant?

To be quite clear, I see no biblical basis for Christians to be under the Law, which includes all of the commandments of the Old Testament. Others, such as yourself, have placed yourselves under obligation to obey a relatively small number of commandments enumerated in the Old Testament.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

To be quite clear, I see no biblical basis for Christians to be under the Law, which includes all of the commandments of the Old Testament. Others, such as yourself, have placed yourselves under obligation to obey a relatively small number of commandments enumerated in the Old Testament.

So you think we are free to worship other gods?

 

[bbbbbbb]

So you think we are free to worship other gods?

No, not because of the commandment in the Old Testament per se, but because of the explicit commandment of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

I will ask you if you are free to engage in homosexuality, incest, and inappropriate behavior with animals because none of these are proscribed in the Ten Commandments?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, not because of the commandment in the Old Testament per se, but because of the explicit commandment of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

I will ask you if you are free to engage in homosexuality, incest, and inappropriate behavior with animals because none of these are proscribed in the Ten Commandments?

Do you really think Jesus and God are at odds with each other or are not One?

Jesus came to magnify (to make greater, not lesser) God's laws Isaiah 42:21 ad Jesus tells us:

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Do you not believe what God personally wrote with His own finger is not God's will for us? God kept His holy laws that He personally wrote and placed it in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple. God has a Temple in heaven that also has the ark of the covenant Revelations 11:19 you might want to reconsider your idea of the will of God.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.” similar as the New Covenant Jer. 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

God bless!

 

[bbbbbbb]

I see, so because Jesus said it you will listen, but not the spoken and written Word of God? Do you really think Jesus and God are at odds with each other or are not One?

Jesus came to magnify (to make greater, not lesser) God's laws Isaiah 42:21 ad Jesus tells us so very plainly:

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Do you not believe what God personally wrote with His own finger is not God's will for us? God kept His holy laws that He personally wrote and placed it in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple. God has a Temple in heaven that also has the ark of the covenant Revelations 11:19 you might want to reconsider your idea of the will of God.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.” similar as the New Covenant Jer. 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

Once again, you have evaded my direct question. I will slightly rephrase it for you. All you need to do is answer yes or no.

Are you free to engage in homosexuality, incest, and inappropriate behavior with animals because none of these are proscribed in the Ten Commandments?

 

[Icyspark]

You evaded my question. Does God command His people to break the Sabbath? I provided just one example from scripture.

Hi bbbbbbb,

My questions revealed biblical precedent for the premise you are proposing. Murder is prohibited, yet in certain contexts God not only allowed it but condoned and commanded it. Is it still a sin when one is commanded by God to do what He generally prohibits?

Deuteronomy 20:16-18
However, you must not let any living thing survive among the cities of these people the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. You must completely destroy them – the Hethite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite ….

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Do not spare them. Kill men and women, infants and nursing babies, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.​

Furthermore, God provided a death penalty to be imposed on those who transgressed certain of His commands.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Once again, you have evaded my direct question. I will slightly rephrase it for you. All you need to do is answer yes or no.

Are you free to engage in homosexuality, incest, and inappropriate behavior with animals because none of these are proscribed in the Ten Commandments?

These all have an umbrella under the Ten Commandments- Jesus came to magnify the law of God. So no you are not free to engage in these activities. There are more laws than the Ten Commandments and no SDA says that there are only Ten. The Ten define God's morals laws and most have an umbrella under one of the Ten.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hi bbbbbbb,

My questions revealed biblical precedent for the premise you are proposing. Murder is prohibited, yet in certain contexts God not only allowed it but condoned and commanded it. Is it still a sin when one is commanded by God to do what He generally prohibits?

Deuteronomy 20:16-18
However, you must not let any living thing survive among the cities of these people the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. You must completely destroy them – the Hethite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite ….

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Do not spare them. Kill men and women, infants and nursing babies, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.​

Furthermore, God provided a death penalty to be imposed on those who transgressed certain of His commands.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

There is a distinct difference between murder and manslaughter. The Law makes this quite clear.

Capital punishment is not murder, according to the Law. The man who was stoned to death for breaking the Sabbath was not murdered, but was given the just penalty for his sin.

 

[Icyspark]

The problem, of course, is that you, as well as many other Christians, do not embrace the entire Old Testament as literal truth and commandments to be obeyed, but selectively pick and choose what you deem relevant. In your case, you are particularly egregious in selectively picking out the Ten Commandments and variations of the dietary law.

Hi bbbbbbb,

I can understand why you might have trouble with some of what you suggest. I personally believe that there is a reason for the language God used when He gave His directives to His people. For instance, Nehemiah uses the words law, commands and statutes in his confession to God of their corporate sins. While these all emanated from God, there is an imposed hierarchy to them. God distinguished His set of Ten Commandments from all His other directives in several ways:

• He spoke them for all the people to hear.
• He used His own finger to write the Ten Commandments.
• He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone.
• He had the Ten Commandments placed in the Ark under the mercy seat.

All the other statutes, decrees, laws and regulations it was sufficient for God to speak them to Moses and for Moses to speak them to the people. Then too, it was sufficient for Moses to record all these other stipulations from God into a book. This book was not stored with the stone tablets, but rather in the side of the ark.

So no, I am not "selectively picking out the Ten Commandments." I am observing from Scripture that God did that.

As for the dietary law, Adventists do not necessarily look to the law as our rationale for our dietary restrictions. We look to Genesis and the way things were "in the beginning." Adam and Eve and all the animals were vegetarians. That makes sense, right? After all it was not God's intent that His creatures would be killing each other. Ultimately the redeemed will not be killing in the new Earth.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Albion]

It doesn't do much to explain why a small segment of organized Christianity is determined that going to church on Sunday is the worst transgression imaginable, even though the Bible authorizes it.

 

[Icyspark]

There is a distinct difference between murder and manslaughter. The Law makes this quite clear.

Capital punishment is not murder, according to the Law. The man who was stoned to death for breaking the Sabbath was not murdered, but was given the just penalty for his sin.

Hi bbbbbbb,

I agree. You accept that murder is different than manslaughter because God made a distinction. Does it matter to you that God made a distinction in what He allowed for the accomplishment of His purpose at Jericho?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

It doesn't do much to explain why a small segment of organized Christianity is determined that going to church on Sunday is the worst transgression imaginable, even though the Bible authorizes it.

Hi Albion,

Where is this authorization to be found?

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion,

Where is this authorization to be found?

Oh dear. You're not going to go that route, too, are you?
Didn't you read my post #305?

The whole of the Bible is God's word. Any argument that attempts to shame traditional Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, by maintaining that the OT is authoritative and unchanging but only some of the NT is divine revelation (excluding the parts that authorize Sunday worship) is bound to fail. That argument cannot succeed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hi bbbbbbb,

I can understand why you might have trouble with some of what you suggest. I personally believe that there is a reason for the language God used when He gave His directives to His people. For instance, Nehemiah uses the words law, commands and statutes in his confession to God of their corporate sins. While these all emanated from God, there is an imposed hierarchy to them. God distinguished His set of Ten Commandments from all His other directives in several ways:

• He spoke them for all the people to hear.
• He used His own finger to write the Ten Commandments.
• He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone.
• He had the Ten Commandments placed in the Ark under the mercy seat.

All the other statutes, decrees, laws and regulations it was sufficient for God to speak them to Moses and for Moses to speak them to the people. Then too, it was sufficient for Moses to record all these other stipulations from God into a book. This book was not stored with the stone tablets, but rather in the side of the ark.

So no, I am not "selectively picking out the Ten Commandments." I am observing from Scripture that God did that.

As for the dietary law, Adventists do not necessarily look to the law as our rationale for our dietary restrictions. We look to Genesis and the way things were "in the beginning." Adam and Eve and all the animals were vegetarians. That makes sense, right? After all it was not God's intent that His creatures would be killing each other. Ultimately the redeemed will not be killing in the new Earth.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I understand the rationale completely. However, it leaves folks like you in the lurch simply because the Ten Commandments are incomplete, at least in your view, and must be augmented with other commandments. As a result, there has been an entirely subjective selection of commandments to obey or to ignore, as you see fit.