Icyspark

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Read on my friend, Jn15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
The Father's command for the Son was to observe the Sinai covenant with its ten commandments. The Son's command for His followers is to love each other as He loves us. How does observing ritual days have anything to do with loving each other???


Hi Bob S,

This continues in the redactionist mindset (i.e. constant subtracting from the Bible--in this case the words of Jesus below).

In a previous post of mine I noted to you that Jesus said, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell" (Translation: Loss of salvation). Yet your emphasis appears to be on a nebulous and undefined "love" and a complete rejection of everything else Jesus says which defines said love. You don't get to say to Jesus, "I love you," while at the same time using your hand, foot or eye to purposely and intentionally sin. Are these words of Jesus left open to broad interpretation? Or rather, is Jesus expressing how serious He is about us getting rid of sin in our lives?

To those who profess to know God but whose actions deny Him Jesus says, "I don't know you." It is not your profession of love but your actions which reveal true love.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Bob S

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Hi Bob S,

This continues in the redactionist mindset (i.e. constant subtracting from the Bible--in this case the words of Jesus below).
That is not true at all spark. Agape love is the one word that defines how we relate to God, ourselves and our fellow man. Certainly the 9 commandments do not contain all the ways we can hurt God, ourselves and our fellow man. The remainder of the laws in the covenant couldn't either as explained by Jesus in Matt 5: 21-48. Furthermore, Jesus stating the Beatitudes and verses 12-16 cannot happen without love dwelling in our hearts. 1Jn 319-24 tells us we cannot go wrong if we believe and love. The book of John is a love message to every sole. God so loves us that He gave His only begotten Son to save mankind. Love is the greatest theme in all scripture.

Thank you, Lord, for giving me Love in my heart and allowing me to express it to my fellow man

In a previous post of mine I noted to you that Jesus said, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell" (Translation: Loss of salvation). Yet your emphasis appears to be on a nebulous and undefined "love" and a complete rejection of everything else Jesus says which defines said love. You don't get to say to Jesus, "I love you," while at the same time using your hand, foot or eye to purposely and intentionally sin. Are these words of Jesus left open to broad interpretation? Or rather, is Jesus expressing how serious He is about us getting rid of sin in our lives?

Your church is fixated on keeping a day given only to Israel. Love then becomes secondary. Your church claims that if one knows about the Israelite Sabbath and does not embrace it the person will not inherit eternal life. My response is if one doesn't embrace agape love the person will not inherit eternal life. Cutting off a hand, of course, is a metaphor. Christians are to live exemplary lives, but we all will fall short of the goal. Please tell me spark, why was it Jesus came to this sin filled Earth? Was it to tell us to cut off our hands or gouge out our eyes? If you really thought He came to tell us that you would not have any hands or eyes or are you above reality?

To those who profess to know God but whose actions deny Him Jesus says, "I don't know you." It is not your profession of love but your actions which reveal true love.
I am having a hard time with that statement spark. I will go with you telling me I give lip service, but fail to act. Is that a true assessment? How is it you know so much about me? Oh yes, I reveal the fact that I don't believe I have to observe a day or days and your assessment is that I do have to or go directly to Hell. You believe, I am sure, that you believe the 10 commandments are written on/in our hearts. Whereas I believe love is written in/on our hearts. It is my bobservation that I do not see people rushing out telling the World that the Holy Spirit has convicted them to observe a day, but I do see the results of hordes of people giving themselves and their means to help others in time of need. That is the result of what is written in our hearts.
 
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SustainableBlueberry

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Hi Bob S,

This continues in the redactionist mindset (i.e. constant subtracting from the Bible--in this case the words of Jesus below).

----------------
In my experience pinning down SDAs is a challenge. Different SDA’s are educated differently...like trying to nail jello to the wall. Some posting here sincerely believe Adventism, and a few seem to be honestly examining its foundations and one or two even note some cognitive dissonance in Adventist culture and beliefs. Pray for them.

Several Adventist preachers know and preach enough of the simple Gospel to navigate around Ellen that many are truly saved by faith alone through grace alone. I praise God for that.

I suggest we ask our Adventist friends the following to help them uncover their paradigm (These are simple questions with direct bible answers. I pray there might be simple honest answers without long drawn out proof-text-without-context, filtering through Ellen’s interpretive lens.)


1. Would you risk your salvation if you stopped keeping the Sabbath as taught in Fundamental Belief 20?



2. What specifically is the “new birth”?



3. What is the Gospel?


4. How are you saved?
 
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BobRyan

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In my experience pinning down SDAs is a challenge. Different SDA’s are educated differently...like trying to nail jello to the wall. Some posting here sincerely believe Adventism, and a few seem to be honestly examining its foundations and one or two even note some cognitive dissonance in Adventist culture and beliefs. Pray for them.

Several Adventist preachers know and preach enough of the simple Gospel to navigate around Ellen that many are truly saved by faith alone through grace alone. I praise God for that.

I suggest we ask our Adventist friends the following to help them uncover their paradigm (These are simple questions with direct bible answers. I pray there might be simple honest answers without long drawn out proof-text-without-context, filtering through Ellen’s interpretive lens.)


1. Would you risk your salvation if you stopped keeping the Sabbath as taught in Fundamental Belief 20?



2. What specifically is the “new birth”?



3. What is the Gospel?


4. How are you saved?

1. The 28 Fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination are voted on by representatives of the entire denomination and posted online for all to read. So it is not like this is some sort of plastic or clay spin-your-own-version system.

What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org

2. It is one single denomination with a central administrative structure and one set of beliefs voted on by the entire denomination.

3. That does not mean that every single member who claims to be SDA will choose to affirm all of our beliefs - everyone has free will. But the church manual states that choosing to reject our beliefs is grounds for church discipline and in some cases removal from church membership.

However the fact that every single individual claiming to be SDA may not entirely affirm what this denomination's beliefs - does not change this denomination's beliefs.

1. Would you lose your salvation if you started taking God's name in vain or started to dishonor your parents - claiming that these two commandments no longer "applied to you". Interesting question. Our job is not to tell someone else who accepts a given commandment of God -- what would happen if they change their mind about it. We simply affirm what God's Word says - "the saints keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12. The Bible does not change whenever this or that individual changes their religious conviction and we are not told the situation in the case of each individual. It is between their own soul and God.

2. The new birth is the new creation of 2 Cor 5... and it is the result of the new covenant of Jer 31:31-34. The person is born again, they receive a new heart that is in harmony with the Word of God Jer 31:31-34, and having been justified by faith they have peace with God - Rom 5:1, fully forgiven, fully justified by faith, adopted into the family of God.

3. The Gospel is the "good news" of salvation and includes a great many details as Paul points out in 1 Cor 15:1-8. In Rev 14:6-12 we see the "everlasting Gospel preached" to the entire world. In Gal 1:6-9 only one Gospel. In Gal 3:8 "the gospel was preached to Abraham". It is the Good News of God's plan to save mankind which required the incarnation of God the Son as Jesus the Christ (Messiah) - who died as an "atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2. It is what provides the New Covenant and associated New Birth of point 2 above. It is what provides victory over sin described in Romans 6, and in Romans 8:4-9.

==================

However to be fair to all of our Sabbath-keeping non-SDAs on this forum - the forum area is not about the SDA denomination. It is about the Sabbath and the Law. Maybe you would be interested in posting that question in the SDA forum.
 
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guevaraj

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and what is your answer to #4 How are you saved?
Brother, I am saved by rapid growth through the new faster way of Jesus as our greatest example of righteousness and faster forgiveness as our High Priest than the old way of animal sacrifice by obeying 11 commandments that surpassed the old way of just 10 commandments. Next, Jesus demands the new way with the additional eleventh commandment as the "one thing you haven't done" while keeping the previous ten commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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SustainableBlueberry

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Your answers are really non-responsive to my questions.

It appears that you are simply compiling texts (possibly texts used in the 28 Fundamental Beliefs?) and assembling your answers. Your response to #3 indicate you do not know the gospel or the true nature of man as you never simply STATE the gospel. You says 1 Cor 15:1–8 “includes a great many details” of the gospel, but in fact that passage is the clearest place in Scripture outlining the essence of the gospel and clearly and simply STATE (why is this so hard?): Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, He was buried, and He was raised from the dead on the third day according to the Scriptures.

The first two verses affirm of the fact that God gave Paul the gospel he preached, and that his readers are saved by that gospel if they hold fast to it. Verses 3-4 state that gospel, and verses 5–8 name the eyewitnesses of the risen Christ. It appears you do not know the actual essence of the gospel and never stated these three things: His death for sin, His burial, and His resurrection on the third day all according to Scripture. FULL STOP! No Ellenizing needed.

The Other brother’s response to question #4 makes no sense but betrays that he sees Jesus the Adventist way: as his example, not as his Lord and Redeemer. It also betrays that he sees the Big 10 as necessary for being saved. Classical Christians all understand that Jesus is the fulfiller of the law and the substitutionary Sacrifice whose finished death, burial, and resurrection removed the law as applying to the church. He fulfilled all of the law – FULL STOP!

"G's response betrays he believes his salvation is actually based on the Big 10 plus selling all and following Jesus. He never indicates he understands that he must BELIEVE and that by believing he receives Jesus’ resurrection life, literally, and is LITERALLY brought from spiritual death to life.

"G" still sees the “new birth” as a metaphor for a concept or an idea. Huh? G doesn’t know what a “new creation” is…G doesn’t know he is literally NEW if he believes. Where does Paul teach that?

The answer to #1 is equivocation. You try to say no one can judge another…but you refuse to answer what would happen if one stopped keeping Sabbath. Your answer, though, is implied because you use the argument about the saints keeping the commandments of God—betraying that You still hold the SDA view that every time the word “commandment” is used, it MUST refer to the Big Ten.

These are all pat Adventist answers. You will never betray your true beliefs clearly to an “outsider” (like me) but will employ typical Adventist arguments that try to pull me into your logical fallacies by creating straw-man arguments. You two never actually answered any of the four questions biblically but betrayed the SDA belief that the Ten Commandments are at the heart of righteousness.

I will keep praying for you.
 
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guevaraj

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Classical Christians all understand that Jesus is the fulfiller of the law and the substitutionary Sacrifice whose finished death, burial, and resurrection removed the law as applying to the church.
Brother, that is a human tradition that Jesus opposes in the passage already quoted. It is through Paul that God calls us, in the new covenant, to keep the true Sabbath of God rescued from the human tradition of Judaism since Joshua. The "rest" spoken of in Hebrews 3 and 4 "has been ready since He made the world". God did not give them this "rest" for 40 years with Manna! They kept a seventh day Sabbath from morning to morning, which was right in Eden, but not near the Promised Land. When they reached the Promised Land, they switched to a Sabbath from evening to evening, which is not a day of the week as defined in Genesis from morning to morning and confirmed below, because the Sabbath remembered is in the time zone of creation.

long after the Sabbath (evening), as it dawns beyond Saturday (morning), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb. (Mathew 28:1, my own translation)​

361381_ff7aae7ab7169d40699276fc6f90eac7.png


Although God gave them His Sabbath in the Promised Land, under Joshua they did not understand the "rest" of God's Sabbath to keep the Sabbath outside the time zone of the Promised Land. To correct this misunderstanding since Joshua, "God set another time for entering His rest, and that time is today", in the new covenant with the call in Hebrews 3 and 4 to keep God's true Sabbath "rest". The "rest" that God wants us to enter "today", in the new covenant when believers find themselves living outside the time zone of the Promised Land, "has been ready since He made the world".

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. (Hebrews 4:8-11 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Icyspark

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In my experience pinning down SDAs is a challenge. Different SDA’s are educated differently...like trying to nail jello to the wall. Some posting here sincerely believe Adventism, and a few seem to be honestly examining its foundations and one or two even note some cognitive dissonance in Adventist culture and beliefs. Pray for them.


Hi SustainableBlueberry,

If you're wishing for me to respond it helps if you don't bury your response to me in the quote box--I didn't even initially see it.

Speaking of pinning down jello, I'm wondering why it is that after over 800 posts on this topic zero have addressed any of the ten reasons listed in the opening post. Do you suppose you'd like to be the first?


Several Adventist preachers know and preach enough of the simple Gospel to navigate around Ellen that many are truly saved by faith alone through grace alone. I praise God for that


I wonder if you'd like to post the only text in the Bible that uses that three word phrase "by faith alone" here in its fuller context?

As for navigating around Ellen, I've found that those who attempt to do such a thing generally have a misconception of the gift of prophecy. Most of those opposed to Adventism outright reject this spiritual gift, so is it any wonder they reject any manifestation in the life of Ellen White? Tell me, do you accept that the gift of prophecy is available to the new testament church? Why or why not?


I suggest we ask our Adventist friends the following to help them uncover their paradigm (These are simple questions with direct bible answers. I pray there might be simple honest answers without long drawn out proof-text-without-context, filtering through Ellen’s interpretive lens.)


1. Would you risk your salvation if you stopped keeping the Sabbath as taught in Fundamental Belief 20?



2. What specifically is the “new birth”?



3. What is the Gospel?


4. How are you saved?


I would love to answer your 4 questions. Let's see if you can address the opening post first before I take the time to respond.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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SustainableBlueberry

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Sola fide, is one of the five sola principles and those two words are not in a Bible verse. Of course neither are any of the other 4 solas specifically listed in the Bible. They are summary statements to teach scriptural principles. The principle of sola fide teaches that salvation is entirely apart from our own works or effort as taught by the Reformers. Two key scriptures that teach sola fide are Romans 4:5-6 and Galatians 2:16. As a Mormon acquaintance told me once: “...to you Lutherans it is just “The work of Jesus plus nothing.” We are not against good works just that they are not part of our salvation. As Martin Luther said: Gott braucht deine guten Werke nicht, Aber Ihr Nachbar tut es
roughly: God Doesn't Need Your Good Works, But Your Neighbor Does

I’m not sure what the gift of prophecy has to do with my 4 questions. I am tired of SDA fallacious strawman arguments (and they know what logical fallacies are...but they continue to use them which is sad) Please promise you won’t use the gift of prophecy as a straw man drawing us away from the core 4 questions I asked. Fair enough?

But I’ll answer: Yes there can be valid prophecies after Christ’s death/burial/resurrection. Agabus was a prophet in the book of Acts predicting a famine which happened. The few post NT prophets I recall off the top of my head are: John Knox (the Scottish Presbyterian-Reformed-5-sola pastor gave several prophesies that came true https://www.utpjournals.press/doi/pdf/10.3138/flor.17.016

In the late 1400s Savonarola warned of "the Sword of the Lord over the earth coming quickly and soon" “seeing” awful tribulations to Rome. A bit later he began to prophesy that a New Cyrus was coming over the mountains to begin the renewal of the Church. A few of his prophecies came true but not all. There are others. They all should be tested by the Bible in the original autographs (Gk and Heb). I taught early church history pre 1000 AD so am not so familiar with modern “prophets”

On the need for and validity of the gift of prophecy OK

But per the Bible all prophecies (including Ellen’s) must be tested by the original autographs of the Bible/word of God in Hebrew and Greek. SDA states they are “sola scriptura”

From the late 1950s to 60s 30+ Adventist Hebrew scholars investigated key questions on how to understand and exegete the sanctuary doctrine out of Daniel 8:14 (from the Hebrew) Ray Cottrell (Adventist hebrew scholar)asked internal Hebrew scholars about the Hebrew translation of Dan 8:14 all stated that there is no linguistic or contextual basis for applying Daniel 8:14 to the antitypical Day of Atonement and the Investigative Judgment. There was not one Adventist college Bible teacher (knowing the Hebrew text) who came out and said there is a basis in exegesis – that is in the language or the context to apply Dan 8:14 to DOA or IJ. They all stated the KJV Dan 8:14 was an unfortunate mistranslation. SDA states sola scriptura but when their own Hebrew scholars show otherwise from the original Daniel 8 autographs these faithful scholars who had labored for 5 years are dismissed. Lets assume Ellen had the gift of prophecy. OK do her visions, prophecies and writings need to be tested by the original Greek and Hebrew Bible texts? Yes

SDA “Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church” OK if at least some of her writings clearly are not supported in any way from the Hebrew(e.g. we now know from the Hebrew text of Dan 8 do not support the IJ and DOA ideas from Ellen’s writings and visions) Why doesn’t the GC humbly admit as much and say “we are human, a mistake was made...Dan 8:14 in the Hebrew does not teach what we thought it did."

My parents always told me: Honesty is always the best policy.

Now back to the 4 questions:

1. Would you risk your salvation if you stopped keeping the Sabbath as taught in Fundamental Belief 20?



2. What specifically is the “new birth”?



3. What is the Gospel?


4. How are you saved?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Sola fide, is one of the five sola principles and those two words are not in a Bible verse. Of course neither are any of the other 4 solas specifically listed in the Bible. They are summary statements to teach scriptural principles. The principle of sola fide teaches that salvation is entirely apart from our own works or effort as taught by the Reformers. Two key scriptures that teach sola fide are Romans 4:5-6 and Galatians 2:16. As a Mormon acquaintance told me once: “...to you Lutherans it is just “The work of Jesus plus nothing.” We are not against good works just that they are not part of our salvation. As Martin Luther said: Gott braucht deine guten Werke nicht, Aber Ihr Nachbar tut es
roughly: God Doesn't Need Your Good Works, But Your Neighbor Does

I’m not sure what the gift of prophecy has to do with my 4 questions. I am tired of SDA fallacious strawman arguments (and they know what logical fallacies are...but they continue to use them which is sad) Please promise you won’t use the gift of prophecy as a straw man drawing us away from the core 4 questions I asked. Fair enough?

But I’ll answer: Yes there can be valid prophecies after Christ’s death/burial/resurrection. Agabus was a prophet in the book of Acts predicting a famine which happened. The few post NT prophets I recall off the top of my head are: John Knox (the Scottish Presbyterian-Reformed-5-sola pastor gave several prophesies that came true https://www.utpjournals.press/doi/pdf/10.3138/flor.17.016

In the late 1400s Savonarola warned of "the Sword of the Lord over the earth coming quickly and soon" “seeing” awful tribulations to Rome. A bit later he began to prophesy that a New Cyrus was coming over the mountains to begin the renewal of the Church. A few of his prophecies came true but not all. There are others. They all should be tested by the Bible in the original autographs (Gk and Heb). I taught early church history pre 1000 AD so am not so familiar with modern “prophets”

On the need for and validity of the gift of prophecy OK

But per the Bible all prophecies (including Ellen’s) must be tested by the original autographs of the Bible/word of God in Hebrew and Greek. SDA states they are “sola scriptura”

From the late 1950s to 60s 30+ Adventist Hebrew scholars investigated key questions on how to understand and exegete the sanctuary doctrine out of Daniel 8:14 (from the Hebrew) Ray Cottrell (Adventist hebrew scholar)asked internal Hebrew scholars about the Hebrew translation of Dan 8:14 all stated that there is no linguistic or contextual basis for applying Daniel 8:14 to the antitypical Day of Atonement and the Investigative Judgment. There was not one Adventist college Bible teacher (knowing the Hebrew text) who came out and said there is a basis in exegesis – that is in the language or the context to apply Dan 8:14 to DOA or IJ. They all stated the KJV Dan 8:14 was an unfortunate mistranslation. SDA states sola scriptura but when their own Hebrew scholars show otherwise from the original Daniel 8 autographs these faithful scholars who had labored for 5 years are dismissed. Lets assume Ellen had the gift of prophecy. OK do her visions, prophecies and writings need to be tested by the original Greek and Hebrew Bible texts? Yes

SDA “Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church” OK if at least some of her writings clearly are not supported in any way from the Hebrew(e.g. we now know from the Hebrew text of Dan 8 do not support the IJ and DOA ideas from Ellen’s writings and visions) Why doesn’t the GC humbly admit as much and say “we are human, a mistake was made...Dan 8:14 in the Hebrew does not teach what we thought it did."

My parents always told me: Honesty is always the best policy.

Now back to the 4 questions:

1. Would you risk your salvation if you stopped keeping the Sabbath as taught in Fundamental Belief 20?



2. What specifically is the “new birth”?



3. What is the Gospel?


4. How are you saved?

Hi nice to meet you SBB.

The answer to your questions are very simple. Perhaps more simple than most people realize. The answer to your questions is simply believing and following what God's Word says. Anything else according to James is the dead faith of devils *James 2:16-26 and those who follow this teaching according to Jesus will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven according to *Matthew 7:21 as anyone else who lives a life of known unrepentant sin and unbelief once they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and choose to reject it according to Paul in Hebrews 10:26-31 (also compare; John 17:17; John 6:43; 1 John 3:6-9; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 with Hebrews 10:26-27 and James 4:17).

Most of your claims in regards to Danial 8:14 are not factual. Danial 8:14 the cleansing of the Sanctuary has it's basis from Leviticus 16 and parallels to the typical annual feast day of atonement. The Hebrew word צָדַק (tsâdaq | H6663) has too many English word meanings for a single English word translation. The idea behind the Hebrew word tsâdaq is to cleanse or make clean from sin to make right, to put right, to restore, to vindicate to make justified or righteous to declare righteous, be made right. All of which takes place typically in the cleansing of the Sanctuary on the annual feast day of atonement of Yom Kippur. *Leviticus 16; 23:27-32. Also, you might want to note the context in Daniel 8:12-13 is to sin with Daniel 8:14 to be made right or cleansed from sin in Daniel 8:12-13 sometimes translated transgression is the Hebrew word פֶּשַׁע (peshaʻ | H6588) which means sin, transgression, rebellion). So what is your argument now? You have none.

Now let's be honest. God's 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments that the scriptures say, give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *see 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and according to James if we knowingly break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. We should also consider that there is not a single scripture in all of God's Word that tells us that God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest now is there? Sunday worship is simply a man-made teaching and tradition handed down by the Roman Catholic Church that has led many unknowingly away from God and His Word to follow man-made teachings and traditions to break the commandments of God. The good news is that in times of ignorance God winks at and does not hold anyone accountable for sin until He gives us a knowledge of what His Word says (see Acts of the Apostles 5:29 and James 4:17 and compare with Hebrews 10:26-27).

According to Jesus his people are in every Church *John 10:16 but the hour is coming and now is that his true followers hear His voice (the Word) and follow him and will worship Him according to what His Word says in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *see John 4:23-24. According to the scriptures God is calling all of us our from following man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word back to the pure Word of God *Revelation 18:1-5.

Jesus says that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that knowingly lead us away from God and His Word we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. Then the question we must all consider is who should we believe and follow; God or man *see Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29? According to Jesus Gods' people will hear His voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear and do not follow according to Jesus are not His sheep *John 10:26-27. God says "REMEMBER" (Exodus 20:8-11) because he knew the world would forget! It's time to leave the lies handed down from the teachings and traditions of men and return to God through His Word.

TIME TO UNLEARN THE LIES FROM THE PAST




May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word
 
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Sola fide, is one of the five sola principles and those two words are not in a Bible verse. Of course neither are any of the other 4 solas specifically listed in the Bible. They are summary statements to teach scriptural principles. The principle of sola fide teaches that salvation is entirely apart from our own works or effort as taught by the Reformers. Two key scriptures that teach sola fide are Romans 4:5-6 and Galatians 2:16. As a Mormon acquaintance told me once: “...to you Lutherans it is just “The work of Jesus plus nothing.” We are not against good works just that they are not part of our salvation. As Martin Luther said: Gott braucht deine guten Werke nicht, Aber Ihr Nachbar tut es
roughly: God Doesn't Need Your Good Works, But Your Neighbor Does


Hi SustainableBlueberry,

Just as I said. When a critic attempts to paint Adventists as using proof texts they invariably do the very thing they decry. Above we see you referencing three verses. So tell the jury of your peers why it's ok for you to do what you identify as proof texting but it's not ok for Adventists?


I’m not sure what the gift of prophecy has to do with my 4 questions. I am tired of SDA fallacious strawman arguments (and they know what logical fallacies are...but they continue to use them which is sad) Please promise you won’t use the gift of prophecy as a straw man drawing us away from the core 4 questions I asked. Fair enough?

But I’ll answer: Yes there can be valid prophecies after Christ’s death/burial/resurrection. Agabus was a prophet in the book of Acts predicting a famine which happened. The few post NT prophets I recall off the top of my head are: John Knox (the Scottish Presbyterian-Reformed-5-sola pastor gave several prophesies that came true https://www.utpjournals.press/doi/pdf/10.3138/flor.17.016

In the late 1400s Savonarola warned of "the Sword of the Lord over the earth coming quickly and soon" “seeing” awful tribulations to Rome. A bit later he began to prophesy that a New Cyrus was coming over the mountains to begin the renewal of the Church. A few of his prophecies came true but not all. There are others. They all should be tested by the Bible in the original autographs (Gk and Heb). I taught early church history pre 1000 AD so am not so familiar with modern “prophets”

On the need for and validity of the gift of prophecy OK


The gift of prophecy has nothing to do with your four questions as it relates directly to what you said well prior to the asking of those four questions. It seems like this "discussion" is already heading off the rails as you're illustrating that are you not following along with your own commentary. You said, "Several Adventist preachers know and preach enough of the simple Gospel to navigate around Ellen." If you're having a hard time recalling what you wrote from two days ago then please take advantage of the fact that I quoted you in my response and it's a simple thing to read my reply in relation to what you wrote. Also, if you were reading my response you'd've noticed that I indicated that due to this being my thread it would be courteous and respectful and logical and polite for you to actually address my opening post before I respond to your four questions. Have you done that? This particular sub forum is actually called, "The Sabbath and the Law," and you are responding to a thread titled, "Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian." Don't you think it'd be nice if you actually addressed the topic at hand?

That said, I applaud your ability to acknowledge your general acceptance of the gift of prophecy.


But per the Bible all prophecies (including Ellen’s) must be tested by the original autographs of the Bible/word of God in Hebrew and Greek. SDA states they are “sola scriptura”


Agreed that "all prophecies (including Ellen’s) must be tested by the original autographs of the Bible/word of God" I have yet to see any Adventist defending any of our Bible beliefs from anything other than what the Bible says.


From the late 1950s to 60s 30+ Adventist Hebrew scholars investigated key questions on how to understand and exegete the sanctuary doctrine out of Daniel 8:14 (from the Hebrew) Ray Cottrell (Adventist hebrew scholar)asked internal Hebrew scholars about the Hebrew translation of Dan 8:14 all stated that there is no linguistic or contextual basis for applying Daniel 8:14 to the antitypical Day of Atonement and the Investigative Judgment. There was not one Adventist college Bible teacher (knowing the Hebrew text) who came out and said there is a basis in exegesis – that is in the language or the context to apply Dan 8:14 to DOA or IJ. They all stated the KJV Dan 8:14 was an unfortunate mistranslation. SDA states sola scriptura but when their own Hebrew scholars show otherwise from the original Daniel 8 autographs these faithful scholars who had labored for 5 years are dismissed. Lets assume Ellen had the gift of prophecy. OK do her visions, prophecies and writings need to be tested by the original Greek and Hebrew Bible texts? Yes

SDA “Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church” OK if at least some of her writings clearly are not supported in any way from the Hebrew(e.g. we now know from the Hebrew text of Dan 8 do not support the IJ and DOA ideas from Ellen’s writings and visions) Why doesn’t the GC humbly admit as much and say “we are human, a mistake was made...Dan 8:14 in the Hebrew does not teach what we thought it did."


How many "Bible scholars" disagree with various doctrines of your particular denomination? How many "scholars" disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity? How many of them disagree with the doctrine of baptism? Etc. Currently Christianity in general is shrinking as a result of post modern thinking entering into the church. Should Adventists cave in to the liberal mindset we'd be shrinking just like everyone else.

My parents always told me: Honesty is always the best policy.

Now back to the 4 questions:

1. Would you risk your salvation if you stopped keeping the Sabbath as taught in Fundamental Belief 20?



2. What specifically is the “new birth”?



3. What is the Gospel?


4. How are you saved?


I can't wait to respond to your four questions but I eagerly await your response to the opening post.

Oh, and I didn't see you respond to this question either: "I wonder if you'd like to post the only text in the Bible that uses that three word phrase 'by faith alone' here in its fuller context?" I eagerly await that response as well :grinning:

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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SustainableBlueberry

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LGW I thought I was responding to a question about sola fide. I was trying to ask what sola scriptura meant to SDA, which is why I referenced Raymond Cottrell’s work on Daniel 8. Here is the paper he presented in 2002. The Sanctuary Doctrine: Asset or Liability? by Raymond F. Cottrell I don’t know all the collateral damage this created within the denomination.

I apologize if Cottrell is a pariah amongst SDA, and an incompetent Hebrew scholar. I did not mean to trigger or dredge up anything negative. Please forgive me.

Back to the four questions and “The answer to your questions are very simple. Perhaps more simple than most people realize. The answer to your questions is simply believing and following what God's Word says.” I thought I politely requested that folks not respond with logical fallacy...but sigh...that is what you have done.

I asked for a specific response to each question but you have offered a logical fallacy (Why? I did not intend to tick you off...really I did not) you are avoiding the issue—another logical fallacy. (Sigh) You responded to my request for response to four questions by not addressing the 4 questions. (The answer to your questions...is a non answer) Unlike the strawman fallacies so often provided by SDA, avoiding the issue simply avoids the 4 questions. Sigh

Logical Format:

SBB 1 asks questions 1-4.

LGW makes an unrelated statement without answering the 4 questions.

Audience and/or SBB forgets about questions 1-4.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LGW I thought I was responding to a question about sola fide. I was trying to ask what sola scriptura meant to SDA, which is why I referenced Raymond Cottrell’s work on Daniel 8. Here is the paper he presented in 2002. The Sanctuary Doctrine: Asset or Liability? by Raymond F. Cottrell I don’t know all the collateral damage this created within the denomination.

I apologize if Cottrell is a pariah amongst SDA, and an incompetent Hebrew scholar. I did not mean to trigger or dredge up anything negative. Please forgive me.

Back to the four questions and “The answer to your questions are very simple. Perhaps more simple than most people realize. The answer to your questions is simply believing and following what God's Word says.” I thought I politely requested that folks not respond with logical fallacy...but sigh...that is what you have done.

I asked for a specific response to each question but you have offered a logical fallacy (Why? I did not intend to tick you off...really I did not) you are avoiding the issue—another logical fallacy. (Sigh) You responded to my request for response to four questions by not addressing the 4 questions. (The answer to your questions...is a non answer) Unlike the strawman fallacies so often provided by SDA, avoiding the issue simply avoids the 4 questions. Sigh

Logical Format:

SBB 1 asks questions 1-4.

LGW makes an unrelated statement without answering the 4 questions.

Audience and/or SBB forgets about questions 1-4.
Your questions were indeed answered. Perhaps you did not like the answers provided by the scriptures that were shared with you which is why your not addressing the post you are quoting from and making all sorts of claims I have never said. Anyhow what you believe is between you and God and I do not judge you dear friend. I have only shared scripture with you that are Gods' Words not mine. According to Jesus it is the Words of God we accept or reject that become our judge come judgement day in John 12:47-48 so we will agree to disagree.

Take Care :wave:
 
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guevaraj

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there is no linguistic or contextual basis for applying Daniel 8:14 to the antitypical Day of Atonement and the Investigative Judgment.
Brother, happy Sabbath! How about the first compartment named by the singular form of the word "Holy" that is separated from the second compartment named by the plural form of the word "Holy" with the torn curtain in the earthly temple when Jesus died?

Hang the inner curtain from clasps, and put the Ark of the Covenant in the room behind it. This curtain will separate the Holy (singular Holy) Place from the Most Holy (plural Holy) Place. (Exodus 26:33 NLT)​

This first compartment, named by the singular word "Holy", connects Daniel 8:14 and the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16.

The other replied, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the Temple (singular Holy) will be made right again." (Daniel 8:14 NLT)​

The same word previously translated as "Temple" translates in the next passage as “Holy” on the Day of Atonement, "made right" once a year from having stored all the sins of Israel collected throughout the year. The sacrifices of animals moved the sins of the people to the first compartment before the curtain and once a year those collected sins were removed from the first compartment and the whole tabernacle was purified.

and purify the Most Holy (singular Holy) Place, the Tabernacle, the altar, the priests, and the entire congregation. This is a permanent law for you, to purify the people of Israel from their sins, making them right with the LORD once each year.” (Leviticus 16:33-34 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Icyspark

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That is not true at all spark. Agape love is the one word that defines how we relate to God, ourselves and our fellow man. Certainly the 9 commandments do not contain all the ways we can hurt God, ourselves and our fellow man. The remainder of the laws in the covenant couldn't either as explained by Jesus in Matt 5: 21-48. Furthermore, Jesus stating the Beatitudes and verses 12-16 cannot happen without love dwelling in our hearts. 1Jn 319-24 tells us we cannot go wrong if we believe and love. The book of John is a love message to every sole. God so loves us that He gave His only begotten Son to save mankind. Love is the greatest theme in all scripture.


Hi Bob S,

This is exactly what I'm talking about. There is no such thing as "the 9 commandments," yet you think you can redact the Scriptures to suit your imaginary whirled view. There is a numeral attached to "the covenant" yet it appears that you believe this numeral can be changed at your leisure (sometimes using subtraction it becomes 9, sometimes using addition it balloons to 613). The Bible calls the Ten Commandments "THE covenant." You certainly know this as I've shared with you the texts which declare this on numerous occasions, yet you still are determined to subtract from the Scriptures to make them say something more in line with your personal, yet unbiblical, beliefs.

Exodus 34:28
Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13
He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

Additionally . . .
  • You KNOW that God is love.
  • You KNOW that God does nothing that is not loving.
  • You KNOW that the law is love.
Yet KNOWing this, in your attempts to rationalize your position are you not marginalizing the God you say you love. After all, if the God of the Bible made imperfect laws which were not loving and then had to rethink them and undo them and abolish them, I'd say that god is not the omniscient God of the Bible.

Let's review a couple of the many texts which reveal that the law is love:

Deuteronomy 11:1
Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

Deuteronomy 30:16
For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

Tell me again how you're not subtracting from the Bible. What is it about loving God and keeping His requirements, decrees, laws and commands that you don't understand? Is Deuteronomy 11:1 in your Bible? Or did you subtract/redact it? What about Deuteronomy 30:16? Is not love for God revealed in walking in obedience to Him? If that's not how you read it then do tell how you understand these two texts?


Thank you, Lord, for giving me Love in my heart and allowing me to express it to my fellow man


Contrary to your private interpretations, Jesus is crystal clear that love for Him is manifested in obedience. Since He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then what makes you think He woke up one day and arbitrarily decided that His perfect commandments needed to be rethought, rewritten or removed?

John 14:15
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.​


Your church is fixated on keeping a day given only to Israel. Love then becomes secondary. Your church claims that if one knows about the Israelite Sabbath and does not embrace it the person will not inherit eternal life. My response is if one doesn't embrace agape love the person will not inherit eternal life. Cutting off a hand, of course, is a metaphor. Christians are to live exemplary lives, but we all will fall short of the goal. Please tell me spark, why was it Jesus came to this sin filled Earth? Was it to tell us to cut off our hands or gouge out our eyes? If you really thought He came to tell us that you would not have any hands or eyes or are you above reality?


The opening post deals with the nonsense of the first sentence above.
  • Jesus observed the Sabbath and we're told to follow His example in all things. Is love secondary if you're obeying Jesus?
  • Paul--as a follower of Jesus--likewise observed the Sabbath. As an "apostle to the Gentiles" he says to follow his example as he follows the example of Christ. Is love secondary if you're following the example of Paul, who is following the example of Jesus?
  • The disciples all observed the Sabbath. Is love secondary if you're doing what the disciples all did?
  • Gentiles observed the Sabbath. Is love secondary if keeping the Sabbath the way the Gentiles did?
Based on what biblical evidence do you dispute any of the above? It seems you would have us turn a blind eye to all the biblical evidence and just focus on an undefined and arbitrary version of a nebulous "love." Obedience is subtracted in your sin-ario.

Then too, aside from the critic's penchant for subtracting from what the Scriptures teach we also see in the above paragraph the other side of the coin in which the critic adds to the Scriptures. No where does the Bible ever call the Sabbath "the Israelite Sabbath." You know this since we've discussed this error on numerous occasions, yet you continue to press forward this heresy. The opening post also addresses this false belief in reason #10 which indicates that the word for the seventh day in cultures around the world is Sabbath. You have offered ZERO in the way of explanation for this phenomena, yet persist in adhering to error. It's hard to kick against the goads.

As for cutting off hands or gouging out eyes, again we're back to subtracting from the Bible. Jesus is showing in these two scenarios the extreme seriousness of sin. He would rather have us cut off a hand or gouge out an eye than for us to use that hand or eye to sin and ultimately be rejected from heaven. Again, obedience reveals love. Disobedience reveals someone who says "Lord, Lord" but doesn't do what He says. These interlopers will be on the sad receiving end of Jesus's rejection, "I do not know you. Away from Me you evilDOERS."

Icyspark said:
To those who profess to know God but whose actions deny Him Jesus says, "I don't know you." It is not your profession of love but your actions which reveal true love.
I am having a hard time with that statement spark. I will go with you telling me I give lip service, but fail to act. Is that a true assessment? How is it you know so much about me? Oh yes, I reveal the fact that I don't believe I have to observe a day or days and your assessment is that I do have to or go directly to Hell. You believe, I am sure, that you believe the 10 commandments are written on/in our hearts. Whereas I believe love is written in/on our hearts. It is my bobservation [:handpointleft:Nice] that I do not see people rushing out telling the World that the Holy Spirit has convicted them to observe a day, but I do see the results of hordes of people giving themselves and their means to help others in time of need. That is the result of what is written in our hearts.


Your words reveal what you believe. It's your stated belief that that the law is not love, even though you read it with your own eyes (Please explain what a "covenant of love" is). You can't explain how you incorporate those texts I post about the law, love and obedience into your belief system. As a rule you just ignore those texts. The law reveals sin. If the law is abolished (which Jesus clearly said it was not) then you are not a sinner. If you are not a sinner then you have no need of a Savior. This too you won't explain (i.e. how you are a sinner while there is no law which identifies you as a sinner).

Why don't you try actually responding to the opening post? You'd be the first critic to do so :flushed:

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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expos4ever

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I do not think you will find scripture that corresponds with your statements.
We have discussed this before - the fact that a particular hypothesis cannot substantiated by "a verse" is not a very good reason to reject the hypothesis. There are many obvious Biblical truths that are not directly addressed in particular texts. The Trinity, for example.
 
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BobRyan

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This is by far the most misunderstanding concept by those of the old covenant law. Thinking that they follow God by His commandments written on stones...and the results is "condemnation" and "death"..2Corins, because They leave out God and follow their own.

"The law is Not based on Faith", therefore is Not about Jesus Christ and is Not the Gospel. Galatians is a great book to read as @Bob S has quoted in His thread.
Is about the Jewish leaders promoting the Galatians that they have to keep the old covenant law to be justified before God etc

"IF you LOVE Me - KEEP my commandments" John 14:15 is a teaching of Jesus you seem to be missing in that statement above.

"LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is a teaching of scripture you seem to be missing in that statement above.

"THIS IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
And his commandments include the TEN having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" Matt 19
No wonder Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
No wonder the NEW Covenant writes the LAW of God on the heart - Jer 31:31-34

====================

Rom 8:4-10 says that someone without Christ "does NOT submit to the LAW of God , neither indeed CAN they"
 
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BABerean2

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"IF you LOVE Me - KEEP my commandments" John 14:15 is a teaching of Jesus you seem to be missing in that statement above.

Explained below by the same man who recorded the Book of John.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


.
 
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BobRyan

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"IF you LOVE Me - KEEP my commandments" John 14:15 is a teaching of Jesus you seem to be missing in that statement above.

"LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is a teaching of scripture you seem to be missing in that statement above.

"THIS IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
And his commandments include the TEN having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" Matt 19
No wonder Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
No wonder the NEW Covenant writes the LAW of God on the heart - Jer 31:31-34

====================

Rom 8:4-10 says that someone without Christ "does NOT submit to the LAW of God , neither indeed CAN they"



Explained below by the same man who recorded the Book of John.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight...
.

So then not quite as "limited" as you may have hoped -- as we see in James 2 and Rom 13 and Eph 6:2 and Matt 19 - where "more commandments" than the one you might have wished - are listed by NT saints.

We already saw one example of that in the Eph 6:2 quote above.

"THIS IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
And his commandments include the TEN having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2
 
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