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Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by Icyspark, Oct 9, 2020.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Well you know how I like to refer to "the Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19" etc. When you see an SDA pastor doing it - it usually comes from me.
     
  2. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thats awesome! Yes, we know you like referring to it, I guess it came in handy. :)
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Yeah it is a show-stopper for the kind of objections Gregg was inclined to make.
     
  4. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I’ll have to re-watch it just for that! Thanks for sharing. :)
     
  5. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

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    Hi SustainableBlueberry,

    Your answer to #2 above doesn't really address the question. Your answer addresses how He rested, not why.

    As with the baptism of Jesus where the Son had no need of a baptism of repentance, Jesus was baptized as an example for us to follow. When Jesus rested after the creation it wasn't because He was tired. It was because He was setting an example for us to follow. "The Sabbath was made for people ..." Jesus didn't bless the day for Himself. Jesus didn't sanctify the day for Himself. It was done for the benefit of the people He created.



    If you compare Genesis 2:1-3 with Exodus 20:8-11 you will find the same exact ingredients in almost verbatim form. To claim that a mousetrap isn't a mousetrap merely because the name isn't emblazoned on it is nonsense, but that's what you're essentially doing here.



    I don't have the time to address the above scenario but I do wish to address the issue you raise below.



    This whole premise is based on an incorrect assumption (i.e. that there was no "task given to Adam and Eve."). What does the Bible say?

    Genesis 2:15
    The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.

    So the "task" was to take care of the Garden and "work it."

    You said, "If you really think about it, they had no real work to perform." What do you say now?



    The Sabbath is fully established in Genesis 2:1-3. As I stated above, a comparison of these three verses with the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20 reveals an almost verbatim account of the Sabbath (i.e. 1. the seventh day; 2. blessing; 3. sanctified; 4. Rest). God doesn't require rest. He doesn't need to bless a day or sanctify a day for His own benefit. Jesus says the Sabbath was made for people. When was it made? In the beginning when things were made.

    If you were to take the time to examine and respond to the opening post you'd see that one of the ten reasons given for why I am a Sabbatarian is that many languages of the world use the word Sabbath as the designation for the seventh day. If the Sabbath was only for the Jews then this phenomena would not be embedded in so many cultures.



    You might want to take your own advice and actually address the opening post since it actually answers many of the issues you are bringing up.

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
  6. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    God resting on the seventh day was pointing forward to when God, as man, would rest in the tomb after completing His work of salvation. You are correct that God does not tire. God is spirit, tiredness pertains to the flesh.
    Of course it didn't end there. God rose to life on the eighth day, an eternal day which is not followed by night, the "day that the Lord has made". The eighth day supersedes the seventh day as shown by circumcision occurring on the eighth day even if it fell on the Sabbath. This day is known in the Church as the Lord's day, "Kyriaki" in Greek.
     
  7. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The use of Sabbath to name the seventh day is due primarily to christianisation of those cultures. In almost all of those cultures the day following the seventh day is called Lord's day.
     
  8. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi there,

    I do not think you will find scripture that corresponds with your statements. I see you didn’t provide any which would have been useful.

    The Lords day referring to Sunday in Greek was added years after the Bible. Not from scripture, from man applying it- this should be concerning if we are told to follow God’s Word and not to add to it. Proverbs 30:5-6

    The first day is only referenced 8 times in the New Testament and not one scripture showing that the Sabbath commandment was deleted and we are now to worship on the first day. Scripture states that the Sabbath is still a commandment after the death of Jesus Luke 23:56 and Jesus talks about the Sabbath being kept before His coming Matthew 24:20 and the day we will be keeping for eternity thus saith the Lord. Isaiah 66:23


    Well lets look at the Greek in the 8 scriptures that talk about the first day to see if it connects the first day as the Lords day:

    In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
    - Matthew 28:1

    [the] first [day]
    μίαν (mian)
    Adjective - Accusative Feminine Singular
    Strong's 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.


    And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
    - Mark 16:2

    first [day]
    μιᾷ (mia)
    Adjective - Dative Feminine Singular
    Strong's 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.

    Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
    - Mark 16:9

    [on the] first [day]
    πρώτῃ (prōtē)
    Adjective - Dative Feminine Singular
    Strong's 4413: First, before, principal, most important. Contracted superlative of pro; foremost.

    Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
    - Luke 24:1

    first [day]
    μιᾷ (mia)
    Adjective - Dative Feminine Singular
    Strong's 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.


    The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
    - John 20:1

    First [day]
    μιᾷ (mia)
    Adjective - Dative Feminine Singular
    Strong's 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.


    Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    - John 20:19

    first
    μιᾷ (mia)
    Adjective - Dative Feminine Singular
    Strong's 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.

    And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
    - Acts 20:7

    first [day]
    μιᾷ (mia)
    Adjective - Dative Feminine Singular
    Strong's 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.

    Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    - 1 Corinthians 16:2

    On the first [day]
    μίαν (mian)
    Adjective - Accusative Feminine Singular
    Strong's 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.


    As you can see there is nothing connecting the Lords day as the first day in scripture. To me, we should only go by God’s written Word, and God clearly claimed His day in scripture and that day is indisputable:

    Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
    Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
    From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
    And call the Sabbath a delight,
    The holy day of the Lord

    Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another,
    All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.


    God bless
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2022
  9. tampasteve

    tampasteve Free State of Florida Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter Staff on LOA

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    ADMIN HAT ON

    Please note that this thread has been moved to the Sabbath and The Law forum.

    ADMIN HAT OFF
     
  10. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

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    Hi prodromos,

    There's a lot of assertion being made with zero amount of validation supplied. Let's see, for instance, that it was due to the "cristianisation of those cultures" that the name for the seventh day is the Sabbath. Dontcha think that's actually an odd assertion on your part? After all, if Christians named the seventh day the Sabbath isn't that actually an endorsement of the same? If they're naming the seventh day the Sabbath then that means the Sabbath wasn't ended at the cross as most Sunday observers claim.

    Then you go on to assert that in those same cultures that have had Christians renaming the seventh day to the Sabbath that they also named the following day the "Lord's day." First off, you made a random assertion about Sunday also being renamed in all these same cultures. I doubt you can defend that and such would explain why you didn't attempt to document said assertion. Secondly, you know there's nothing in the Bible to indicate that Sunday was ever given any sort of title other than "the first day of the week"? If you took a moment to ponder what that means you might just set aside your whole "Lord's day" paradigm. The first day in reference to what? The first five days of the week are all identified using numerals. The sixth day is known as the preparation day. Only the seventh day is given a venerated title and that title is never stripped from it (see reason #8 in opening post). It would be silly for Christians to name the seventh day "the Sabbath" in all these cultures if it was no longer blessed day; a sanctified day; a day of rest. That's absurd. Furthermore, it would be ridiculous to change the name of the first day to "the Lord's day" when the only day God ever identified as specifically His is the Sabbath. To apply the Lord's day to Sunday is a misnomer based on human rather than divine intention.

    Isaiah 58:13, 14
    “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on MY holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the Lord, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

    Look to what the Bible actually says rather than attempting to palliate a long held but untenable position.

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
  11. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hello Spark, welcome to the unending debate Sabbath and the Law forum.

    All of Israel failed to observe the "ifs" in Is 58:13. How are you and all of the flock doing with those demands?. Paul even called the group of commands, the Sabbath command was a part, the ministry of death. No wonder why Jesus said in Jn 15: 9-14 He kept the Father's commands, all of the 613 that pertained to Him, and asks us to keep the Royal Law of Love. New covenant Christians have been freed of all the ritual commands, so thankfully we don't have to worry about Is 58:13, and those "idle words" that were a continual gotcha.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2022
  12. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

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    Hi Bob S,

    Thanks for the welcome!

    Did you know that:
    Jesus says sin no more.
    John says not to sin.
    Paul says stop sinning.
    Peter says stop sinning.
    Sinners don't have to sin.

    How are you and all the flock doing with those demands? How do you suppose John, Paul and Peter did?


    Indeed. The Ten Commandments were never a method of salvation. They tell us the right way to go. When we stray they condemn us as sinners and sin leads to death. Are you no longer a sinner? If you aren't then you don't need Jesus.

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 7:13
    Did that which is good [i.e. the Ten Commandments], then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

    1 Corinthians 15:56
    The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

    James 1:15
    Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

    Without the Ten Commandments would you even know that you're a sinner? Let's see what Paul thinks:

    Romans 7:7
    What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.

    Would you really like to insist that the only aspect of the Ten Commandment covenant which Paul is indicating identifies sin is the tenth one? Hardly. An appeal to one from the set of ten is an appeal to all of them.



    It's always intriguing to me that the critics of the Sabbath commandment are so keenly aware of this 613 number. Why? Because nowhere is this number specified in the Bible. You know what number is specified? Ten. The Ten Commandments are separate from the 603. The numeral ten restricts this set and God commands you not to add or subtract from what He says:

    Deuteronomy 4:2
    Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

    Those who try to rid themselves of the Sabbath command usually are doing both adding (i.e. 613 commands instead of Ten) or subtracting (i.e. attempting to forget the one command which says we are to remember. Ironic, right?). God doesn't allow for you to subtract from this unit of ten by trying to marginalize the Sabbath as a "ritual command." No matter how you wish to come at it with your "new math," it's still good old fashioned subtracting.

    Proverbs 30:6
    Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

    The Royal law of loving your neighbor is not left nebulous and undefined. The last six of the Ten Commandment covenant all provide specifications for how this love is to be manifested to your neighbor. You don't get to arbitrarily decide what's right for how you express love for your neighbor (i.e. moral relativism).

    James 2:8-11
    If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.​

    James reveals the "royal law" of loving your neighbor and then gently sets it aside and indicates it's still sin if you transgress the law. He then goes on to identify what law by listing two from the Ten Commandment covenant. He doesn't need to identify all ten in order for his readers to get the point that he's appealing to the entire covenant of Ten.

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2022
  13. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your welcome. We go way back in another forum.

    The fact is though, we ALL fall short.

    {Staff Edit} Turn the question I asked back at me without responding to my question. Well, I will answer, I am still a sinner, now how about you? Have you mastered keeping the Sabbath without sinning according to Is 58:13?

    The 10 WERE 10 ways the Israelites could sin. The fact is none of the 10 WERE about love. The Israelites had to open the book of the Law to find many other ways they could sin. Even then I doubt if all the ways they could sin were mentioned.

    By the way, your prophet didn't agree with your analysis that the 10 were never a method of salvation. One of them, the Sabbath command, was singled out. If, under the new covenant, anyone who does not observe the Sabbath will loose/has lost their salvation. She took it upon herself to judge almost every adult human being that has ever taken a breath.
    But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}
    Of course she was/is referring to those who worship God on another day, especially Sunday.

    The 10 commandments were part of the Law given to one nation, Israel. God has never required Gentiles to observe a day, never, never.

    Your "i.e." is your opinion concerning "ten" as is all scripture in the New Testament that references the word commandments. Seems like that is adding to scripture. Had the writers meant ten commandments I am sure they would have put the ten there for us to discern.

    Thank the Lord we are not under the Law.
    Without Jesus that is.

    Yes, lets do. Gal3:23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

    {Staff Edit} The 10 only reveal 10 ways Israelites could sin. Actually there are many, many ways man can sin. The 10 were a good start.

    Under the Royal Law of Love the Holy Spirit guides us as how to treat our fellow man. 2Cor3:6-11 tells us that Israel is now under the guidance of the Holy Spirit not the ministry of death, the 10 commandments.​

    First of all the covenant had 613 laws not just 10. {Staff Edit} .......by propping the 10 up as being the all inclusive way we treat God and our fellow man. The greatest commandments in all of scripture are not part of the 10.

    Nowhere in the new covenant is 10 specified either, gut you take it upon yourself to add it to scripture. 613 could be wrong because they were counted by man, but I bet the number is very close, so what is the big issue with using it?

    Yep, the ten WERE specified to one nation only, Israel. They were some of the words of the Sinai covenant given to Israel at Sinai. They were not given to any other nation on Earth. I am not the one adding or subtracting from scripture spark. When one place laws that were given to only one nation on my back that person or belief system is/are in violation

    Great advice, It is one thing to tell that to others, it is another thing for the teller not to obey it too.

    {Staff Edit} No one except one nation has ever been given the command to observe the ritual Sabbath. Try to tell the Jews that the Israelite Sabbath was not a ritual command.

    Seems like you are fixated on trying to tell us we New Covenant Christians are liars or sinners.​

    And you do not have the right to specify that the 10 are the specifications
    for loving your neighbor. It is the gift of the Holy Spirit guiding us that reveals how we are to treat our fellow man.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2022
  14. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

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    Hi Bob S,

    What happened to your response to my response to this post? Did you take it down? I'd really like to address what you had written.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
  15. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi spark, I trust it will get straightened out and you will have the opportunity to do just that. Then once again it will be my turn to respond.
     
  16. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Icy, the post #853 is back up for your to critique, have at it.
     
  17. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

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    Hi Bob S,

    The fact is that even though you and I and everyone else may fall short, Jesus and His servants (John, Paul and Peter) all are in agreement that we should stop sinning.



    Yes, I turn it around such that you can see the silliness of your own question.

    Even should you falter at times that doesn't give you the authorization to reject God's admonition to stop sinning. If you fall off a horse should you stay off the horse? What if you fall off the horse 10 times? 100 times? 1000 times? Should you just give up? Maybe it's not the horse that's the problem, but us? Maybe we just don't know how to ride the horse? Maybe (switching to a biblical metaphor) Jesus Christ is not in us?

    2 Corinthians 13:5
    Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

    If "Christ Jesus is in you" then you will be doing those things which are pleasing to Him. If He is not in you then of course you will be disobeying Him. So if you're doing as Paul indicates here in examining yourself "to see whether you are in the faith" and discover that your actions reveal that your faith is not real then you can know that Christ Jesus is NOT in you, and you have failed the test.



    This is where I wish you hadn't told me who you were. I've invested so much time with you on this one issue yet you continue to make this same heretical assertion. How many times do you think a person needs to read the same Bible verses which counteract and contradict their personal opinion before it begins to sink in? I pray that number will be fulfilled today.

    1. Deuteronomy 6:1, 5-6
      These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess ... Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.

    2. Deuteronomy 7:12
      If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.

    3. Deuteronomy 11:1
      Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

    4. Deuteronomy 19:9
      because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today—to love the Lord your God and to walk always in obedience to him—then you are to set aside three more cities.

    5. Deuteronomy 30:16
      For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

    6. Joshua 22:5
      But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the Lord gave you: to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to keep his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
    For someone to try to excise the love from the context of these verse is irrational and irresponsible. Love is inextricably tied to obedience. His covenant is called a "COVENANT OF LOVE." How can a loving God provide anything less than loving requirements of His creatures? The answer is: He CAN'T.

    Jesus is "the same yesterday, today and forever" and in John 14:15 He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

    People who have such a strong desire to be free from the positive restrictions of God's "holy, righteous and true" law are tacitly admitting that their love for Jesus isn't valid. Obedience is the authentication of our love. If we choose to walk in disobedience to Him, then our actions overrule our words.




    If you were to understand what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 13:5 about examining yourself to see whether you're in the faith you'd understand what you just quoted in its correct intention.

    In Matthew 5:30 Jesus says, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell" (Translation: Loss of salvation). Jesus isn't allowing for this embracing of sin while at the same time claiming to be saved. He very clearly indicates that it'd be better for you to cut off the part which causes you to sin than for your whole body to be "cast into hell." Furthermore, He also says the same thing about your eye: gouge it out and throw it away (c.f. v. 29)!

    Romans 8:13
    For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

    Here too we find that Paul is equating living according to the flesh with death (i.e. "you will die). It is only as we are living "by the Spirit" and have "put to death the misdeeds of the body" that we "will live."

    Do you love Jesus? Is Christ Jesus in you? It is only in obedience that you can know the answer to these questions. Once saved, always saved tastes sweet to those who invest no time in understanding the Scriptures for themselves. It will ultimately be a bitter pill for those who choose to "keep on sinning that grace may abound."

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2022
  18. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not "may" Spark, will or have fallen short. Of course we strive to not hurt others or ourselves, but the fact is if we could become perfect we wouldn't need Jesus now would we.

    Your statement makes me ill. You, of all people, should know better than to belittle others. No question should be answered in that fashion. Why would you feel you have to belittle others? I have a good idea.

    I do believe you have accused me of rejecting some scripture. Face the fact brother, the only way we will "look" perfect is by the covering of Jesus blood.

    So, your contention is that Christ is not in me because I do not keep the Sabbath. It is outwardly true I do not keep the Israelite only Sabbath given only to Israel in the covenant at Sinai and exposed to the Israelites between the time of successfully crossing the Red Sea and standing at the foot of My Sinai. My contention is that where there is no law there is no sin. Your contention is that the Sabbath is written on our hearts. I completely reject that notion. If that notion were true people would be flocking to synagogues or churches that practice Sabbath observance. SDAs wouldn't have to spend countless millions of the flocks hard earned money trying to convince those attending SDA seminars that threaten the attendees that Christ cannot be in them unless they do what the SDA church deems as necessary, keeping a day Holy. They preach keeping a day which those preaching those things have never done.

    I am so sorry for your loss of time Spark. You should have learned by now you kant win em all. All that time spent with me when you could maybe have hooked someone else, too bad. All your statement proves is you are not as convincing as you might think you are.


    For whom are all those verses intended Spark? None of them would have told the Israelite that the ten commandments were about love. They were all about duty. It was there duty to care for their parents, keep Sabbath, not steel and etc.

    Read on my friend, Jn15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
    The Father's command for the Son was to observe the Sinai covenant with its ten commandments. The Son's command for His followers is to love each other as He loves us. How does observing ritual days have anything to do with loving each other???

    Oh yes, we have such desire to kill, steel, bear false witness, covet, ditch our parents, blaspheme God and the other myriads of sinful acts that we don't deserve breathing air. We who don't observe the defunct Israelite Sabbath are an abomination. What a terrible bunch of Christians we are. Is this wrong from what you have categorized us a being in quotes above?

    The following is correct intention? Well, it makes me sick at my stomach. That woman had absolutely no right to condemn anyone. God didn't even give the Sabbath to the remainder of the World. According to her and now you, all others will be lost
    But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}
    Of course she was/is referring to those who worship God on another day, especially Sunday. If there is truth in her statement it would seem to me we all will/have missed the boat.

    Are you quoting that for me and millions like me that have determined from scripture that keeping the now defunct Israelite Sabbath doesn't include anyone. Can you still see, have use of your hands and even your mouth?

    Some more "you" stuff. So lets use some more "you". Have you conquered sin? Have you been able to ever keep the Sabbath according to Is 58:13? Is you(r) giving lip service to "keeping" it enough to serve as being obedient?
     
  19. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

    189
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    Hi Bob S.,

    Interesting, isn't it, how you mock me for turning a question of yours back on you, yet you embrace the same thing you mock for your own purposes? Did you answer my question? No? Icy how it is.

    It doesn't matter whether I've conquered sin. Jesus said to stop sinning. Why is it you look to me as your example? Jesus is your Example! Am I your Lord and Savior? Do you worship me? If not, then why are you looking to me? It's so ridiculous.

    Are you holy? Can a holy person keep the Sabbath holy? The Bible says Christians are "to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Again I ask, are you holy? If you are holy, then what makes you think you can't observe the Sabbath which Jesus says was made for human beings?

    Speaking of "'you' stuff," I find it odd that you would act like you are not part of the equation. As usual you ignore the Bible text and instead prefer to focus on me. But let me redirect your attention back to the Bible text you just ignored:

    Romans 8:13
    For if YOU live according to the flesh, YOU will die; but if by the Spirit YOU put to death the misdeeds of the body, YOU will live.

    This is the problem icy. The four YOU's in the text above don't apply to the critics of Adventism. The critic just ignores the "YOU" in the Bible's pointed testimonies and instead attempts to redirect the focus off of themselves and how the text applies to their walk with God and instead prefer to look to me as the author and finisher of their faith. That's heresy as well as blasphemy, btw. :fearscream: Read the Bible in its normative sense and stop inserting your own opinions. God promises that if you ask Him for wisdom He will give it to you.

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2022
  20. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

    189
    +151
    United States
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    Married

    Hi Bob S,

    Let's just consider how your redactionist view of the following text appears based on your claim above:
    1. Deuteronomy 6:1, 5-6
      These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess ... Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.

    2. Deuteronomy 7:12
      If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.

    3. Deuteronomy 11:1
      Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

    4. Deuteronomy 19:9
      because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today—to love the Lord your God and to walk always in obedience to him—then you are to set aside three more cities.

    5. Deuteronomy 30:16
      For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

    6. Joshua 22:5
      But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the Lord gave you: to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to keep his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”

    That's rather embarrassing. How anyone feels so free to edit the words of God and extract the love from these verses about His law is chilling. Indeed, it is telling of the god they are portraying. The God of the Bible is the same yesterday, today and forever. Therefore if the God of the Bible is not loving in the Old Testament then he cannot be loving in the New.

    When the critic attempts to edit the Bible to make it align with a cherished belief I again take us back to God's command not to add or subtract from what He commands:

    Deuteronomy 4:2
    Do not add or subtract a thing to what I’m commanding you. Observe the commands of the Lord your God.

    Why not rather attempt to rightly understand why a God of love provides commandments for His creatures instead of just imposing one's own finite and flawed beliefs into the biblical narrative?

    Let me just come back to this random assertion of yours from above:

    "None of them would have told the Israelite that the ten commandments were about love. They were all about duty."

    Oh really? :SMH:

    The Ten Commandments are called a covenant, right? Let's just confirm that with what the Bible says:

    Deuteronomy 4:13
    He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments

    A few chapters later in the same book we read this (which I quoted above and have quoted for you on innumerable other circumstances):

    Deuteronomy 7:12
    If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.

    Why in the world a critic of Adventism--who supposedly believes in the Bible--would so brazenly deny that the covenant is CLEARLY called "HIS COVENANT OF LOVE" is embarrassingly absurd.

    Um ... yes you are.

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2022
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