BobRyan

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Hello Bob, never said anything was deleted by Christ!
Faith uphold the Law...

I am glad we can agree on something.

And the Law is Not based on Faith but works...

the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers was "written on the heart" under the New Covenant according to Jer 31:31-34. that is the one and only Gospel Covenant.


Therefore, we cannot keep His commandments because He is not in US, and we cannot love Him because Sin rules our carnal mind and flesh as you quoted sometimes before..." The mind governed by the flesh, is hostile to God, it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so".. Romans 8

No doubt that is the condition of the lost

But is not the condition of New Covenant saints as Jer 31:31-34 reminds us.
 
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pasifika

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I am glad we can agree on something.



the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers was "written on the heart" under the New Covenant according to Jer 31:31-34. that is the one and only Gospel Covenant.




No doubt that is the condition of the lost

But is not the condition of New Covenant saints as Jer 31:31-34 reminds us.
Yes, the Law known to Jeramaih is definitely not the Law that given to those that God led out from Egypt and made a covenant with them as you quoted in Jeremiah 31:32

Condition of the lost is those that are not led by the Spirit...
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, the Law known to Jeramaih is definitely not the Law that given to those that God led out from Egypt

All bible scholars agree that Jeremiah and his readers were aware of the TEN spoken by God at Sinai.

Under Jeremiah's New Covenant that law is included in what is written on the heart
 
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SustainableBlueberry

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I watched the debate a while back and hands down Pastor Doug won, but more importantly God's Word is what prevailed.

Sadly you missed my point. In a college debate forum with rules and established protocol Pastor Doug would have been "dropped" for clear ethical violations. The rules were clearly stated yet Doug trampled them. Is that what we want to teach our young people coming up --"win" at any cost by bringing up new arguments in rebuttals with no opportunity for the opposition to respond (is that what we really want to teach our kids that that behavior by a church leader is OK?) even if it means you violate the terms and rules of the debate forum. Ethics matter!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I watched the debate and I did not see any rule violations and if there were any, I’m sure it was by accident. This was not a hardcore debate, it was discussing the Sabbath Truth in a church.

To me the bigger picture is biblical Truth, not a debate, What does God’s Word say, because we will not be judged by a debate, we will all be judged by Jesus and grace is given through our faith, which is established by obedience to God’s law. Romans 3:31, James 2:10-12, Matthew 7:21-23 1 John 2:3-5, Revelation 14:12. God bless
 
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My experience is that Adventist polemicists, by necessity, have to ignore the entire existence of the Eastern Churches and 4/5 of the ancient Pentarchy.

-CryptoLutheran
Interesting that BobRyan and SabbathBlessings et. al. are silent on the 4/5 ancient Pentarchy and that the Eastern churches Sabbath perspective. I expected at least some response to the Andrews University church history teachers notable omission of the Eastern Churches history in church history courses covering 50 AD to the 4th centuries and beyond.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Interesting that BobRyan and SabbathBlessings et. al. are silent on the 4/5 ancient Pentarchy and that the Eastern churches Sabbath perspective. I expected at least some response to the Andrews University church history teachers notable omission of the Eastern Churches history in church history courses covering 50 AD to the 4th centuries and beyond.
Interesting you have never responded to this post Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian, Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian or this one Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian :) I am typically not too concerned with commentary that is outside scripture leading people away from God’s Word. I am more concerned what scripture states, because only God’s Word matters to me.
 
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...I may be wrong, but I believe EGW’s proclamations are binding??: over people like me (and others like me) who have heard the doctrine and requirement for Saturday Sabbath Keeping and have willfully chosen to observe Sunday as the Lords Day (Sabbath)-- from what I have read, according to EGW are “doomed.” I am trying to understand. Read on

If the Sabbath is the seal as EGW said (Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, p.640) Sabbath #20th Fundamental Belief

"The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them (am I and others like me included as an enemy of God’s law as well), have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. Too late they see the true nature of their spurious sabbath and the sandy foundation upon which they have been building. They find that they have been fighting against God. Religious teachers have led souls to perdition while professing to guide them to the gates of Paradise. Not until the day of final accounts will it be known how great is the responsibility of men in holy office and how terrible are the results of their unfaithfulness. Only in eternity can we rightly estimate the loss of a single soul. Fearful will be the doom of him to whom God shall say (to me): Depart, thou wicked servant.

"The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory."

Am I and others like me “a wicked servant.” ...to be cast out departed forever from God’s Holy presence? Or is there any mercy or room in the Adevntist universe for people like me per Colossians 2: 16 “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of…a Sabbath” ??
 
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SabbathBlessings

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...I may be wrong, but I believe EGW’s proclamations are binding??: over people like me (and others like me) who have heard the doctrine and requirement for Saturday Sabbath Keeping and have willfully chosen to observe Sunday as the Lords Day (Sabbath)-- from what I have read, according to EGW are “doomed.” I am trying to understand. Read on

If the Sabbath is the seal as EGW said (Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, p.640) Sabbath #20th Fundamental Belief

"The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them (am I and others like me included as an enemy of God’s law as well), have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. Too late they see the true nature of their spurious sabbath and the sandy foundation upon which they have been building. They find that they have been fighting against God. Religious teachers have led souls to perdition while professing to guide them to the gates of Paradise. Not until the day of final accounts will it be known how great is the responsibility of men in holy office and how terrible are the results of their unfaithfulness. Only in eternity can we rightly estimate the loss of a single soul. Fearful will be the doom of him to whom God shall say (to me): Depart, thou wicked servant.

"The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory."

Am I and others like me “a wicked servant.” ...to be cast out departed forever from God’s Holy presence? Or is there any mercy or room in the Adevntist universe for people like me per Colossians 2: 16 “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of…a Sabbath” ??

I always find it interesting when someone doesn't seem to have an answer to scripture, they bring up Ellen White, instead of just addressing the scripture.

I see you did bring up one scripture, but you seemed to leave out the context, so let's bring that back in and examine this scripture to see if it makes a case why we can break one of the commandments of God.

First, we need to back up to Col 2:14

Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The Ten Commandments is God-written (finger of God), the law of Moses is handwritten so right there you have your proof this is not talking about any of God's Ten Commandments.

Lets keep going:
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. The Sabbath is holy and blessed, that does not sound contrary. Once God blesses something man cannot reverse Numbers 23:20 so Col 2:14-17 is not referring to the Sabbath commandment.


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. So there appears to be a contradiction to Col 2:14 and the Ten Commandments. Since there are no contradictions in scripture, it must be referring to another law. The law of Moses was placed outside the ark of the covenant, written by Moses in a book as a witness against you, Deuteronomy 31:24 God's law is not grievous 1 John 5:3. The law of Moses was added because of sin Galatians 3:19, the law of God points out sin, Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20. The law of Moses contained curses Deuteronomy 29:20-21, Galatians 3:10 and made nothing perfect Hebrews 7:19. The law of God is perfect Psalms 19:7 and brings blessings and peace Proverbs 29:18, Psalms 119:165 the law of Moses in the book of ordinances ended with Jesus being our Perfect sacrifice. Ephesians 2:15, Col 2:14-16, Hebrews 8:13 not God's law which is ETERNAL and UNCHANGING Matthew 5:17-19

So there is 100% proof Colossians 2:14-16 is not referring to the Ten Commandments it is referring to the law of ordinances, not the COMMANDMENTS of God. Is there a sabbath(s) in the law of ordinances? Yes, and fits Colossians 2:16 to a tee as is about food and drink and holy days called sabbath(s) in scripture which has nothing to do with the seventh day Sabbath commandment of God that was before sin Genesis 2:1-3 and is a memorial to God's Creation "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep holy Exodus 20:8. The sabbath(s) feast days (animal and food offerings) is what ended, that is in the ordinances in the law of Moses, that was contrary to us and ended with Jesus our Sacrifice -See Hebrews 10 which is what Colossians 2:14-16 is referring to.

One more proof Colossians 2:14-16 is not referring the seventh day Sabbath

Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. The Sabbath is not a shadow of anything, it points back to Creation "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep Holy and does not point to Christ on the cross it points to Creation. Genesis 2:1-3

Further proof, the Sabbath day continues to be God's chosen day of worship for eternity: Isaiah 66:23 just like God promised Exodus 31:1

I hope this helps. God bless
 
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SustainableBlueberry

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I get the proof texts you have eloquently quoted.

As Adventist scholars privately admit ,this sort of somewhat unique exegesis regarding the Saturday Sabbath is entirely absent in the Ancient Church from 50 AD to the post reformation church into the 1600s. The 4 Eastern Church pentarchs kept a Sunday sabbath from at least 50 AD onward. You start to see some sabbath keeping bible exegesis with lots of bible verses, by the Puritans and Calvinists from the mid 1600s to the late 1700s. But it was always Sunday sabbath keeping with the premise that the Hebrew word meant "rest" not "worship etc"...where we got a lot of the blue laws. Then during the burned over district era in New York the Millerites and 7th day Baptists sprung up decades after the war of 1812 or so and then they harkened back to the Jewish practices of Saturday Sabbath keeping -- which was a new development in church history. From this point onward we see an outpouring of proof texting bible verses by itinerant bible preachers like Miller et al. to support new visions of Saturday. Shortly after James and Ellen White married, they read a tract written by Joseph Bates titled Seventh-day Sabbath and became convinced that they were to keep Saturday as the sabbath. 2.5 years prior to that Ellen was not keeping the Sabbath (Adventists never tell us why she deid not keep the Saturday Sabbath from age 17 to 19+?) Six months later, Ellen had a vision in which she saw the law of God with a halo of light surrounding the fourth commandment. She and her husband took this as proof that their newfound understanding was correct. They elevated this to a doctrine of first importance. It is only after this 4th Command halo vision that there came an outpouring of proof texts for the Saturday Sabbath.

America is an interesting culture where we can create whole new belief systems (kind of like a land of opportunity) --within a few decades time and within 100 miles of NY we have 4 major new religions spring up Mormons, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses and Christian Science. These interpretations supporting a Saturday Sabbath are new in church history and came out of the burned over district -- context and background do matter.

I honestly want to know about the EGW statements about Sunday Sabbath keepers. Am I doomed or is there a place of mercy for me and others like me?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I get the proof texts you have eloquently quoted.

As Adventist scholars privately admit ,this sort of somewhat unique exegesis regarding the Saturday Sabbath is entirely absent in the Ancient Church from 50 AD to the post reformation church into the 1600s. The 4 Eastern Church pentarchs kept a Sunday sabbath from at least 50 AD onward. You start to see some sabbath keeping bible exegesis with lots of bible verses, by the Puritans and Calvinists from the mid 1600s to the late 1700s. But it was always Sunday sabbath keeping with the premise that the Hebrew word meant "rest" not "worship etc"...where we got a lot of the blue laws. Then during the burned over district era in New York the Millerites and 7th day Baptists sprung up decades after the war of 1812 or so and then they harkened back to the Jewish practices of Saturday Sabbath keeping -- which was a new development in church history. From this point onward we see an outpouring of proof texting bible verses by itinerant bible preachers like Miller et al. to support new visions of Saturday. Shortly after James and Ellen White married, they read a tract written by Joseph Bates titled Seventh-day Sabbath and became convinced that they were to keep Saturday as the sabbath. 2.5 years prior to that Ellen was not keeping the Sabbath (Adventists never tell us why she deid not keep the Saturday Sabbath from age 17 to 19+?) Six months later, Ellen had a vision in which she saw the law of God with a halo of light surrounding the fourth commandment. She and her husband took this as proof that their newfound understanding was correct. They elevated this to a doctrine of first importance. It is only after this 4th Command halo vision that there came an outpouring of proof texts for the Saturday Sabbath.

America is an interesting culture where we can create whole new belief systems (kind of like a land of opportunity) --within a few decades time and within 100 miles of NY we have 4 major new religions spring up Mormons, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses and Christian Science. These interpretations supporting a Saturday Sabbath are new in church history and came out of the burned over district -- context and background do matter.

I honestly want to know about the EGW statements about Sunday Sabbath keepers. Am I doomed or is there a place of mercy for me and others like me?
This is non-responsive to my post.

Also you might want to check your facts- Mormons, JW and Christian Science are all Sunday keepers. SDA’s keep the seventh day Sabbath like the commandment tells us to. Exodus 20:8-11

Again you seem to want to talk about anything but scripture, like I said before only God’s Word matters to me. God bless.
 
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I did not say that all the groups listed were Saturday Sabbath keepers...I was trying to give some background that bible interpretations of things like the Sabbath are not generated out of nothing. The NY burned out district they came from influenced their teachings and scriptural "bent". Historical context matters.

We have 1800 years of church history with virtually no bible exegesis, verse-by-verse sermons by 100s of Christian pastors with mention of any Saturday Sabbath. Then brother James Bates generates lots of bible proof texts on the topic into a pamphlet in the 1840s - proof texting that a Saturday Sabbath was now a legal requirement for all real Christians. He provides no historical context of what and why the Eastern and Western church taught Sunday Sabbath for 1800 years and now his interpretation of the bible passages --which you eloquently quote in detail--was the correct interpretation) ...and then 6 months later (1847) EGW has the halo 4th command vision, and the leadership rallied round this new doctrine.

It makes one curious.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I did not say that all the groups listed were Saturday Sabbath keepers...I was trying to give some background that bible interpretations of things like the Sabbath are not generated out of nothing. The NY burned out district they came from influenced their teachings and scriptural "bent". Historical context matters.

We have 1800 years of church history with virtually no bible exegesis, verse-by-verse sermons by 100s of Christian pastors with mention of any Saturday Sabbath. Then brother James Bates generates lots of bible proof texts on the topic into a pamphlet in the 1840s - proof texting that a Saturday Sabbath was now a legal requirement for all real Christians. He provides no historical context of what and why the Eastern and Western church taught Sunday Sabbath for 1800 years and now his interpretation of the bible passages --which you eloquently quote in detail--was the correct interpretation) ...and then 6 months later (1847) EGW has the halo 4th command vision, and the leadership rallied round this new doctrine.

It makes one curious.
EGW did not create the Sabbath, you give her too much credit. God created the Sabbath as a day of rest, after creating the earth in six day, Genesis 2:1-3. God worked six days and rested the seventh day and blessed and sanctified it. God does not need rest, this was the example He left for man. God verbatim told man to do the same thing, work six days, but keep the seventh day Sabbath holy. Exodus 20:8-11. God wants us to keep holy the same day that is holy to Him on the day God blessed and sanctified. Makes sense to me, a day of holy communion with our Savior. We should never keep traditions of man if that leads people to break one of God’s commandments and Jesus warns us to obey God’s commandments over mans traditions. Matthew 15:3-9. Sabbath keeping is a commandment of God, personally written with God’s finger.

You can find these passages right in your own bible!
 
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Ok Let's start in Genesis - from some old notes -- just stick to Genesis--no other reference right now.

The first mention about the Sabbath can be found in Genesis:

Gen 2:1-3 "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

I notice here a few facts:

1. Who rested on that first seventh day? Answer: God

2. Why did God rest on that day? Answer: Because He finished the work He had been doing.

3. Was there any special name given to that first seventh day? Answer: The Bible only refers to it as the seventh day. No mention is given to it as being the Sabbath.

4. Did Adam rest on that day? Answer: Unknown. The Bible does not specify one way or another that he did. He was created the day before, but nothing is said about his activities on that blessed day.

Please note something very particular. Every day of creation is followed by "there was evening, and there was morning" in Genesis. E.g.:

1. Gen 1:5: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day."

2. Gen 1:8: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day."

3. Gen 1:13: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day."

4. Gen 1:19: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day."

5. Gen 1:23: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day."

6. Gen 1:31: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day."

However, nowhere can this phrase be found attached to the seventh day. Nowhere does it say that there was evening, and there was morning-the seventh day!

What possible relevance can that have, you may ask. If no ending was given to the seventh day, could it be that it was meant that Adam and Eve would enjoy a perpetual rest in the garden of Eden? If you really think about it, they had no real work to perform. Except naming animals, perhaps: Gen 2:19-20 "Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field." Now naming animals would be interesting, but does not require any hard work!

The next time the Bible records any task given to Adam and Eve was after they had sinned. Only then did they face hard work. It was a consequence of sin, and as a result, Adam and Eve lost their restful state in the garden of Eden. Gen 3:17-19: "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Now man had lost his innocence, his paradise, and he was going to experience hard work! His rest was gone. The blessing had turned into a curse!

It is also interesting to note that there is absolutely no reference in the Genesis story that states all mankind will keep the Sabbath. In fact, I cannot find any reference in the entire book of Genesis (which spans the first 1/3 of this earth's history!) any reference to humans keeping the seventh day as a day of rest.

Other institutions are mentioned as having been clearly established and followed in the Genesis account. Marriage is one of these: Gen 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

This is food for thought. The Bible should be our only guide . . . Just stick to Genesis fright now--please do not jump ahead ; )
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Ok Let's start in Genesis - from some old notes -- just stick to Genesis--no other reference right now.

The first mention about the Sabbath can be found in Genesis:

Gen 2:1-3 "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

I notice here a few facts:

1. Who rested on that first seventh day? Answer: God

2. Why did God rest on that day? Answer: Because He finished the work He had been doing.

3. Was there any special name given to that first seventh day? Answer: The Bible only refers to it as the seventh day. No mention is given to it as being the Sabbath.

4. Did Adam rest on that day? Answer: Unknown. The Bible does not specify one way or another that he did. He was created the day before, but nothing is said about his activities on that blessed day.

Please note something very particular. Every day of creation is followed by "there was evening, and there was morning" in Genesis. E.g.:

1. Gen 1:5: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day."

2. Gen 1:8: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day."

3. Gen 1:13: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day."



4. Gen 1:19: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day."

5. Gen 1:23: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day."

6. Gen 1:31: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day."

However, nowhere can this phrase be found attached to the seventh day. Nowhere does it say that there was evening, and there was morning-the seventh day!

What possible relevance can that have, you may ask. If no ending was given to the seventh day, could it be that it was meant that Adam and Eve would enjoy a perpetual rest in the garden of Eden? If you really think about it, they had no real work to perform. Except naming animals, perhaps: Gen 2:19-20 "Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field." Now naming animals would be interesting, but does not require any hard work!

The next time the Bible records any task given to Adam and Eve was after they had sinned. Only then did they face hard work. It was a consequence of sin, and as a result, Adam and Eve lost their restful state in the garden of Eden. Gen 3:17-19: "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Now man had lost his innocence, his paradise, and he was going to experience hard work! His rest was gone. The blessing had turned into a curse!

It is also interesting to note that there is absolutely no reference in the Genesis story that states all mankind will keep the Sabbath. In fact, I cannot find any reference in the entire book of Genesis (which spans the first 1/3 of this earth's history!) any reference to humans keeping the seventh day as a day of rest.

Other institutions are mentioned as having been clearly established and followed in the Genesis account. Marriage is one of these: Gen 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

This is food for thought. The Bible should be our only guide . . . Just stick to Genesis fright now--please do not jump ahead ; )

This is all quite easy to address, and I will be happy to respond to your post. Its supper time here so I need to cook for hubby, will be back when I can.
 
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Sabbath from Ge 3 to Ex 16
After the Bible record of God resting on the seventh day, there is no mention of anyone keeping the seventh day until Ex. 16.

Is this a mistake or an oversight? Or perhaps keeping the seventh day as a day of rest was so commonplace that it didn't require Biblical mention? Keeping the context of this silence in mind, it is interesting to note that these same verses do contain many accounts of immorality and sin that pertain later to the Big 10. It make me curious.

Gen 6:5-6 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. NIV

Gen 4:8-12 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?" The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth." NIV

Gen 12:10-20 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you." When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman. And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels. But the LORD inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram's wife Sarai. So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife? Why did you say, 'She is my sister,' so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!" Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had. NIV

Gen 19:4-11 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. NIV

Gen 20:1-7 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar, and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." Then Abimelech king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her. But God came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman." Now Abimelech had not gone near her, so he said, "Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister,' and didn't she also say, 'He is my brother'? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands." Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. Now return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all yours will die." NIV

Gen 26:7-11 When the men of that place asked him about his wife, he said, "She is my sister," because he was afraid to say, "She is my wife." He thought, "The men of this place might kill me on account of Rebekah, because she is beautiful." When Isaac had been there a long time, Abimelech king of the Philistines looked down from a window and saw Isaac caressing his wife Rebekah. So Abimelech summoned Isaac and said, "She is really your wife! Why did you say, 'She is my sister'?" Isaac answered him, "Because I thought I might lose my life on account of her." Then Abimelech said, "What is this you have done to us? One of the men might well have slept with your wife, and you would have brought guilt upon us." So Abimelech gave orders to all the people: "Anyone who molests this man or his wife shall surely be put to death." NIV

Gen 38:24 bout three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant." NIV

Gen 39:7-10 And after a while his master's wife took notice of Joseph and said, "Come to bed with me!" But he refused. "With me in charge," he told her, "my master does not concern himself with anything in the house; everything he owns he has entrusted to my care. No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?" And though she spoke to Joseph day after day, he refused to go to bed with her or even be with her. NIV

During the time from creation to Sinai, the Sabbath is never mentioned, (Why? ... is this a mistake or oversight?) yet other institutions of God are clearly mentioned, and so are many of the other sins that were later addressed by the Big 10. If the Sabbath was to be kept throughout human's existence, why is the Bible silent about this for a period of 2000 years? There is no hint about it being kept by anyone during this period! Are you curious?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Ok Let's start in Genesis - from some old notes -- just stick to Genesis--no other reference right now.
The Bible doesn’t work that way, its one continuous book and in order to have the proper context you may need to find that in other areas of the Bible. The author for Genesis is the same author for at least 5 other chapters.


The first mention about the Sabbath can be found in Genesis:

Gen 2:1-3 "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

I notice here a few facts:

1. Who rested on that first seventh day? Answer: God
Yes, as our example. God does not need rest.

2. Why did God rest on that day? Answer: Because He finished the work He had been doing.
Well lets read the whole scripture.

Genesis 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

God rested, blessed and sanctified the seventh day after working six days. The seventh day was always set apart from all other days according to God and is the holy day of the Lord thy God (Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13). God has always been our example and told us verbatim to do the same thing- work six days Exodus 20:9 , but the seventh day we are to rest from our work and keep the Sabbath holy, Exodus 20:8 just like God did at creation. Genesis 2:1-3

3. Was there any special name given to that first seventh day? Answer: The Bible only refers to it as the seventh day. No mention is given to it as being the Sabbath.
According to God: Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

God defines what the days are and what they mean. God determined from Creation that 6 days are working days Genesis 1, Exodus 20:9 and the seventh day is to be set aside as blessed, sanctified and holy Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11 This is God’s chosen day. On His authority, not what was changed by man. Daniel 7:25

4. Did Adam rest on that day? Answer: Unknown. The Bible does not specify one way or another that he did. He was created the day before, but nothing is said about his activities on that blessed day.
Jesus answers that question when He said the Sabbath was made for man. Mark 2:27 Man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 before sin and before Jew. The very next day was the first Sabbath spent with God on His glorious holy day. When Jesus comes back the saints will once again worship the Lord in His presence every Sabbath. Isaiah 66:23


Please note something very particular. Every day of creation is followed by "there was evening, and there was morning" in Genesis. E.g.:

1. Gen 1:5: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day."

2. Gen 1:8: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day."

3. Gen 1:13: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day."

4. Gen 1:19: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day."

5. Gen 1:23: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day."

6. Gen 1:31: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day."

However, nowhere can this phrase be found attached to the seventh day. Nowhere does it say that there was evening, and there was morning-the seventh day!
Because God did not create anything on the seventh day. He rested from His work like the scripture states. Genesis 2:1-3. Days were already created on the fourth day Genesis 1:14-19.


What possible relevance can that have, you may ask. If no ending was given to the seventh day, could it be that it was meant that Adam and Eve would enjoy a perpetual rest in the garden of Eden? If you really think about it, they had no real work to perform. Except naming animals, perhaps: Gen 2:19-20 "Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field." Now naming animals would be interesting, but does not require any hard work!
Sorry, I have no idea what are you talking about? The seventh day God rested, the days were already created. You are adding a lot that is not in scripture.

The next time the Bible records any task given to Adam and Eve was after they had sinned. Only then did they face hard work. It was a consequence of sin, and as a result, Adam and Eve lost their restful state in the garden of Eden. Gen 3:17-19: "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Now man had lost his innocence, his paradise, and he was going to experience hard work! His rest was gone. The blessing had turned into a curse!

It is also interesting to note that there is absolutely no reference in the Genesis story that states all mankind will keep the Sabbath. In fact, I cannot find any reference in the entire book of Genesis (which spans the first 1/3 of this earth's history!) any reference to humans keeping the seventh day as a day of rest.

Other institutions are mentioned as having been clearly established and followed in the Genesis account. Marriage is one of these: Gen 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

This is food for thought. The Bible should be our only guide . . . Just stick to Genesis fright now--please do not jump ahead ; )

Eden was God’s perfect plan before sin. Sin separated man from God in Eden. Where there is no law, there is no sin Romans 4:15, so there had to be law in Eden before sin and law in Heaven.

The Israelites were keeping the Sabbath before Sinai. God gave them manna for six days and was told to gather double on the preparation day before the Sabbath day so obviously there was God’s law they were following before the commandment. Exodus 16:22-23

God said the Sabbath is a perpetual covenant Exodus 31:16 because it’s not just our holy day, its the day God claimed as His holy day from the beginning Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 and God commanded us to keep holy the same day that is holy to Him Exodus 20:8. What message does one send when man chooses another day of worship on the day God deemed that we should do work, instead of the day God blessed, made holy and sanctified? We are told to worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4:24-25 which is what God is calling us back to Revelation 14:7
The Bible should be our only guide

Yes, I agree. I answered your questions and before I answer anymore of yours, please answer the following:

1. Where is the 4th commandment deleted in scripture?
2. Where does it say the first day (Sunday) is a new day of worship for God or for man?
3. Where did God bless the first day?
4. Where did God sanctify the first day?
5. Where does it say the first day is holy to God?
6. Where does it say the first day is a holy day to man?
7. Where is the commandment for Sunday keeping? Written by God’s own finger?
8. Where does it say keep the first day is a sign between God and His people?
9.Where does it say we are sanctified through keeping the first day?

If the Bible is your only guide these scriptures would surely be in there, right? Perhaps food for thought. :)
 
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BobRyan

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I watched the debate a while back and hands down Pastor Doug won, but more importantly God's Word is what prevailed.

I see a lot of commentary and while it is well-written, it is filled with opinions and no scripture to back up any claims. Instead of discussing a debate,

I agree that Doug did pretty well in the debate with Steve Gregg given the circumstances - and I was surprised that he was using some of my material. I called up an SDA pastor after watching the debate when they did it -- and asked him if he saw that debate and the pastor said "yes Bob - and did you notice that Doug used some of your material?". I said "yeah I saw that - how did he get it?"... turns out that pastor passed it along before the debate.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I agree that Doug did pretty well given the circumstances - and was impressed that he was using some of my material. I called up an SDA pastor after watching the debate when they did it -- and asked him if he saw that debate and the pastor said "yes Bob - and did you notice that Doug used some of your material?". I said "yeah I saw that - how did he get it?"... turns out that pastor passed it along before the debate.
That’s neat! What material was that? Pastor Doug did seem a bit tired that day but I thought he did well too.
 
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BobRyan

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Sabbath from Ge 3 to Ex 16
After the Bible record of God resting on the seventh day, there is no mention of anyone keeping the seventh day until Ex. 16.

there is no mention of anyone being told not to take God's name in vain - until Ex 20.
there is no mention of anyone being told honor parents - until Ex 20.
there is no mention of anyone being invited to breakfast until John 21.

Which is no argument at all in favor of taking God's name in vain, or dishonoring parents, or inviting someone to breakfast

for doctrine we need more substance.
 
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