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Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by Icyspark, Oct 9, 2020.

  1. SustainableBlueberry

    SustainableBlueberry Organic Farmer-Chef

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    Just read this: Coming late to the discussion... I get all the Bible references but I do think it key to understand the context and how early Christians interpreted those scriptures. Humility is important when we approach interpreting the Bible.

    I appreciate all your references esp to Luther (Kans gut ja!) I taught church history (pre 11th century) in college a few decades ago so was puzzled when I was beginning to learn more about Adventism last year and was referred to Ellen White’s writings on the Sabbath: But the fourth (the Sabbath commandment,) shone above them all; for the Sabbath was ... The holy Sabbath looked glorious—a halo of glory was all around it. (Testimonies of the Church Vol 1). EGW set the standard of Saturday Sabbath keeping as an outward demonstration of obedience and compliance to the 4th Commandment. Then the greater SDA movement rallied around this and found revisionist history to support their view and lots of proof texting from the Bible to make be clever and make their point, almost always out of context, and not following sound hermeneutics.

    In the references to Roman Catholic dogma and Constantine enforcing Sunday Worship. SDA scholars know full well that there were 5 bishops in the 2-4th centuries not just one “pope”. 1:5 became the Roman Catholic Pope (but why are these other 4 bishops never mentioned in any of the SDA writings on historical aspects of the Sabbath?). The other 4 never followed or cow towed to the pope yet from ~ 50 AD we know these other non-RC Christians met on Sundays as the “Lords Day” for group worship. I was shocked to learn about Andrew’s University Church historians ignoring the Eastern Orthodox Church in their early church history classes by strategic omission and then privately admitting that it would raise too many questions with the general SDA population. That my friend is not ethical or humble for any teacher at a "Christian" college-regardless of the brand.
     
  2. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Hello Bob, that a good question here you made..."we must first be sinless"...what do you think about keeping a commands means?
     
  3. SustainableBlueberry

    SustainableBlueberry Organic Farmer-Chef

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    I did check them out and also I reviewed the Sabbath debate with your pastor Doug Bachelor

    Pt 1 From Seventh-day Adventism to Catholicism : Review of Sabbath Debate with Doug Batchelor and Steve Gregg


    Pt 2 From Seventh-day Adventism to Catholicism : SABBATH DEBATE Between Doug Batchelor and Steve Gregg: My Review Part II

    In part 2 of the debate The blog author points out that CONTEXT is so important. IMHO we as North Americans have a myopic view of church history and practice—I know as I have taught Church History (in college) to many Christians from different backgrounds. It is not their fault, they are just unaware of the past and think it all began after the Reformation or in SDAs case after 1840s and those who went before were just “unenlightened” They have not read the primary sources. I've also heard some who claim the Bible is the only source ...OK agreed but historical context matters. Knowing that EGW had a vision about a Halo being on the 4th command is a key piece of information providing context to how SDAs view the Sabbath, v s the 2nd-4th century church.

    Blog poster comment: “Before I continue reviewing the debate, I have a couple of things we need to clear up about the Sabbath. Adventists, as wonderful as they are, have created some false assumptions about a "day" of worship.

    Having false assumptions on the "day" of worship in American is fairly easy because, in Protestant America, we think of only one day a week as church day—and that is Sunday. However, if you were to move to non-Protestant areas you would soon realize that for the Orthodox, Armenian, Coptic and Catholic Churches, their history is to worship corporately on a daily basis.

    And because Protestants in the United States attend church usually only once a week, on Sundays, the Adventists have created a false history around the idea of there being a correct day of the week to go to church.

    And because they believe there is a correct day of worship, they then take this false premise and go even further with believing there is a false day of worship—a day God does not want us to assemble together to worship Him. And further, Adventists doctrines record that in the last days, this correct day of worship will become an international test of Christian faith.

    History and scripture can easily refute the idea that there is a wrong day of worship (Sunday) if we take the time to research it. In fact, the greatest evidence that Sunday is not a wrong day of worship is studying Christ's life. For in His lifetime, as an Israelite, He would have been required to have corporate worship in Jerusalem not on weekly Sabbaths (living in Nazareth and in Galilee, He could not have gone to weekly Sabbaths at the Temple. It was several days walk from Nazareth to the Temple.)

    Like the rest of the men in Israel, they were required to attend corporate worship at the Temple on other Sabbaths than the weekly one—three annual Sabbaths. These did not always fall on the seventh-day of the week. Let us look at the time approximate time period of Christ's life that He would have been required to attend the annual sabbaths in Jerusalem and see what day of the week the annual Sabbaths fell on.”
     
  4. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I appreciate your opinion, but I see no scripture that backs that the seventh day Sabbath is a false premise day of worship when the Lord states it verbatim. I also prefer scripture over blogs.

    And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. Isaiah 66:23.

    What would be more compelling instead of trying to discredit the day God tells us verbatim to keep holy, the only day God blessed and sanctified and is one of the commandments of God written by the finger of God Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 is for one Sunday keeper to find one scripture in the entire bible that says Sunday is a day of worship, a holy day for God and for man, a day God blessed or sanctified. Never is any scripture produced to supports ones case, so instead they just attack the indisputable holy day of the Lord thy God. Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13, This would be a real concern if it were I, especially when Jesus warns us about obeying man-made traditions over commandments of God. Matthew 15:3-9 Sabbath-keeping is a commandment of God, there is no such commandment for Sunday keeping. I truly don't understand why this doesn't bother more people. God bless.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  5. SustainableBlueberry

    SustainableBlueberry Organic Farmer-Chef

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    Note: I have coached college debate so found it interesting. In college debate we do have ethics and can not just violate rules of engagement willy nilly.

    The debate gave Steve the opening 20 minute presentation. Pastor Doug gave the second 20-minute presentation, and each had a 10-minute rebuttal time. Significantly, the debate rules included the fact that the participants could not present new information or continue to build their arguments after their 20-minute statements. Rebuttal times were specifically ONLY for addressing what the other said.

    Steve was consistent and careful. He used his rebuttal time ONLY to address Doug’s arguments, not to make new ones--he followed the rules. At one point, he even commented that while there were facts he wanted to present, he couldn’t do it because he couldn’t add to his own argument during his rebuttal time. Instead, he said, he might be able to say more during the Question and Answer time which followed the debate.

    (Debate Ethics Violation) Pastor Doug, ignored the debate rules. He used his rebuttal time to continue to build new Sabbath arguments (which Steve never did—Steve followed the rules). In adding new arguments Doug used Power Point slides and Adventist art to emphasize his words. Doug used proof-texting (never an accepted hermaneutical device as it takes things out of context) and generalizations (a logical fallacy) to sweep people into his worldview without actually showing how he arrived at his conclusions.

    Pastor Doug made two sweeping statements showing illegitimate use of Scripture. Steve countered Doug’s point that Romans 14 leaves the keeping of a day up to each individual worshiper, Doug said, “The word ‘Sabbath’ does not appear in the whole book of Romans.” Technically, that is true. In context of Romans Chapter 14 though Paul is clearly addressing the keeping of the seventh day when stating in Romans 14:5-6a, “One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord…”

    For Doug to say that this passage does not include reference to Sabbath is disingenuous and ignores the clear context and misinterprets the text. This is an unethical use of proof texting out of context. In a real college debate Pastor Doug would have been “dropped” by the judge.

    Another example: Doug makes a deceptive statement: “There in Genesis where God establishes the Sabbath day and He blesses the Sabbath day and He makes it holy.” As Doug (who is a smart guy) is well aware, the creation account never mentions Sabbath. Genesis 2:2–3 states, “By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”

    Steve countered that God ceased from His work on the seventh day and blessed and sanctified it, but he explained that God never established the seventh day as Sabbath (in Genesis) nor did He give anyone any commands for keeping that day in the Genesis account.

    Doug inserted the word “Sabbath” into his commentary about the seventh day and even stated that God “established” the Sabbath in Genesis. Doug knows that the Bible does not state that in Genesis....but he said it anyway. God ceased from His work, and significantly, that seventh day in Genesis had no “evening and morning” boundary as did the six days of creation. In other words, God’s finished work did not have a beginning and an ending marked by an evening and a morning. His finished work did not stop being finished after the seventh day was over. God did not resume His work on the first day of the week.

    As is so common with my Adventist friends, Pastor Doug chose to ignore the context (he knows what the context says but plows on to make Genesis say what it does not state...very sad.) As a former debate coach it pains me to watch this kind of performance as it sets a bad precedent for others. I guess rules don't matter.

    In these instances Doug does not address the words of the text and what they actually mean. Instead, he plunges ahead, making statements in line with EGW’s “the-4th-command-halo-vision” worldview and quotes proof texts mostly out of context as so many have done before.

    Very Sad Day for Adventism...You all deserve better.
     
  6. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I watched the debate a while back and hands down Pastor Doug won, but more importantly God's Word is what prevailed.

    I see a lot of commentary and while it is well-written, it is filled with opinions and no scripture to back up any claims. Instead of discussing a debate, let's talk scripture because only God's Word matters.

    You never addressed this:

    What would be more compelling instead of trying to discredit the only day God tells us verbatim to keep holy, the only day God blessed and sanctified and is one of the commandments of God written by the finger of God Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 is for one Sunday keeper to find one scripture in the entire bible that says Sunday is a day of worship, a holy day for God and for man, a day God blessed or sanctified. Never is any scripture produced to supports one's case, so instead they just attack the indisputable holy day of the Lord thy God, the seventh day Sabbath. Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13, This would be a real concern if it were I, especially when Jesus warns us about obeying man-made traditions over commandments of God. Matthew 15:3-9 Sabbath-keeping is a commandment of God, there is no such commandment for Sunday keeping. I truly don't understand why this doesn't bother more people.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2022
  7. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    How about actually quoting the first commandment from Exodus in it's full form. Not some abbreviation.
     
  8. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Something happened to the law in the New Testament and you seem reluctant to address this issue fully. How can you go from the law of Moses containing over six hundred laws. Down to the law of Moses which has only ten laws.

    Surely, Jesus could somehow fulfill 603 laws but failed to fulfill the remaining 10 laws. I am baffled as to how you can maintain a miniscule part of the law. Yet declare 603 laws in the law of Moses are obsolete. Your theology is obviously flawed.

    You cannot claim that Jesus fulfilled the law and exclude part of the law. It is simply all or nothing.
     
  9. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe you can read this from scripture very carefully....

    Exodus 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

    How many commandments did God personally write?

    It's still a sin to break any of the commandments of God. 1 John 3:4 and the commandments point out sin Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7. You break one commandment you break them all quoting directly from the Ten commandments James 2:10-12 Jesus said you break the least of the commandments and teach others has some warnings. Matthew 5:19. This teaching that you can sin freely is not coming from Christ. Christ said go sin no more. Sin comes from the other spirit, not Christ. 1 John 3:8
     
  10. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Sin is transgression of the law, Sabbath Blessing.

    No one would ever state that you can afflict an orphan, and not be guilty of lawlessness.

    Sin remains the transgression of the law and that is the whole law.

    Back to the drawing board, I am confident that you will work it out.
     
  11. SustainableBlueberry

    SustainableBlueberry Organic Farmer-Chef

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    Please consider the context of Isa 66:22-23. It is so much more than a “proof text” proving we should be keeping the Sabbath today as we read the chapter and the surrounding verses. To single “Sabbath” out is a mechanical approach to this beautiful Hebrew poetry. I can feel my Hebrew teacher weeping.

    Of course the verse contains the Sabbath word. I got that. I wonder, if you as an Adventist ever read this verse in context as saying "everyday" instead of only pointing to "The Sabbath" as a proof text? It mentions the new moons too. But if you look at the wording "from" "to" this wording in a sentence is indicative of all the days in between "from one to another". It is clearly not just the one word that you are focusing on.

    Reading this in context we rest in Christ everyday as confessional Christians, not just on the Sabbath, or from one new moon to another or continually. Today we might say 24/7. This means the same thing as "from one to another". We rest in the finished redeeming work of Christ on the cross. Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen!
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 is not Christ saying
    -- "first you must be sinless then you can love Me"
    -- and it is also not "if you love Me ignore the Word of God"
     
  13. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks for the response back, but honestly all I see from your post is an opinion that has not been backed by scripture.

    God is the authority of everything He created- do you agree?

    The only definition we have on weekly Sabbath is that the seventh day is the Sabbath and it is God’s holy day.

    Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
    Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
    From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight,
    The holy day of the Lord

    God from the very beginning God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it.
    Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made

    God commanded us to keep holy the same day that is holy to Him.
    Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

    All other days God deemed as working days, just like God worked six days from the very beginning because God is our example to follow.

    Exodus 20:9 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

    God said the Sabbath would be a perpetual covenant Exodus 31:16 Which we see fulfilled for eternity as the Lord’s chosen day of worship Isaiah 66:23.

    I’m going with the scripture on this and I think its important to follow the instructions of God, but we are allowed free will. God bless and take care.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2022
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    It is "proof" that instead of "at the cross the Sabbath commandment is deleted" we have instead "for all eternity after the cross in the new earth - all mankind is coming before God to worship - from Sabbath to Sabbath".

    We can't simply insert the word "not" in front of everything that text says.

    Your argument appears to be "with the text". I am not "proposing" that the text should exist, much less writing it.

    I am glad we can agree on the easy part.

    1. there is not one text in all of scripture where "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "every day", almost all Bible scholars in all denominations will know this fact.

    2. We have Samuels' mother bringing him a new coat "from year to year" which also did not mean "every day", almost all Bible scholars in all denominations will know this fact.

    you just shot your own argument in the foot. The text uses two specific cycles known to Isaiah and his readers - a weekly one and a monthly one -- instead of just a singular "daily" term -- as you seem to suggest.

    your suggestion turns it into "from daily and from daily all mankind will come before Me to worship" -- which makes no sense to Isaiah's readers or even today.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2022
  15. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    How about, "We love because He "first" loved us...

    We cannot love God unless He enables us to love Him..So God has to work in us in order for us to love Him..first step
     
  16. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    Amen! Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
     
  17. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's all His to kick start our journey with Him, without the gift of the Holy spirit our canal mind and flesh will never turn and Love Him..
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Another example of one of the many Bible texts not deleted by Christ.



    No wonder then that we have --
     
  19. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    My experience is that Adventist polemicists, by necessity, have to ignore the entire existence of the Eastern Churches and 4/5 of the ancient Pentarchy.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  20. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Hello Bob, never said anything was deleted by Christ!
    Faith uphold the Law...And the Law is Not based on Faith but works...

    Faith comes from hearing the Gospel..not following the Law (works of the Law).

    Seeking to be justified by the Law (letter) is removing the work of the Spirit in you.

    Therefore, we cannot keep His commandments because He is not in US, and we cannot love Him because Sin rules our carnal mind and flesh as you quoted sometimes before..." The mind governed by the flesh, is hostile to God, it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so".. Romans 8

    The old covenant law excluded the work of Spirit, just man (canal man/ flesh)..."we (people) will do everything that God said"..Exodus 19.
     
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