1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. We are holding our 2022 Angel Ministry Drive now. Please consider signing up, or if you have any questions about being an Angel, use our staff application form. The world needs more prayer now, and it is a great way to help other members of the forums. :) To Apply...click here

Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by Icyspark, Oct 9, 2020.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +8,235
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    as it turns out - I am not and you need to find something besides "you should quote something else in that chapter" to make that kind of accusation above stick.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +8,235
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    so that is true.

    But only to be followed by more false accusation as we see below.

    Does this point not appear very obvious to you??

    you have to accurately oppose an actual position I hold for this conversation to work. Merely opposing your own false accusations does not work.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
  3. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

    169
    +147
    United States
    SDA
    Married

    Hi pasifika,

    To be sure the Pharisees had a different view of the Sabbath than the Lord of the Sabbath. In their zeal to protect the Sabbath the Pharisees added all sorts of their own rules and regulations and then elevated their opinions above and beyond God's plain statements. When Jesus came along He systematically went about stripping away these burdens which had been placed on His holy day.

    As the Lord of the Sabbath and as One who was and is sinless, we can rest assured that Jesus wasn't advocating the breaking of the law which He gave and which He punished others when they broke it. Jesus knows what is lawful to do on His holy day and He's the One who said, "It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." The disciples were not harvesting on the Sabbath. What they were doing was within the acceptable God-given boundaries for proper Sabbath observance. That this is the truth of the matter can be ascertained by the fact that at Jesus's kangaroo trial the Pharisees had to look to false witnesses to accuse Him. If Jesus transgressed the Sabbath commandment or advocated that His followers do so then the Pharisees didn't need to appeal to false witnesses.

    But this may be an exercise in futility since your picture of who Jesus is seems to be different from the picture painted in the Bible.



    Hmm, here again is another unbiblical picture. Did you know that Jesus came to save those under the law? Could you tell me who these people were? At what point did these people go from being under the law to no longer being under it?



    You seem to be pouring new meanings into biblical concepts. At what point did the Sabbath go from being a day to a nebulous concept of rest? Was it when the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness for 40 years and God gave them manna? For 40 years God miraculously gave His people manna to eat for six days. On the sixth day He allowed them to gather a double portion. Why? Because on the seventh day no manna would come. Your contention that the Sabbath should be stripped of its association to the seventh day is an assertion based on opinion. The word Sabbath in this context is specifically tied to the seventh day.



    So in other words you have no answer to my question but are instead attempting to deflect your inability to answer by putting it back on me? The fact is that these languages all over the world testify against your imposed belief that the Sabbath was "'Rest' Not a Day." Somehow the word Sabbath got attached to the seventh day of the week in cultures all around the world. There are at least a couple of options for how this could've happened. A) Since the Sabbath was "made" in the beginning, then all people from the time of Adam down to Noah and his family would've been aware of it. Because "the Sabbath was made for people" then the true followers of God certainly would've shared God's holy day with others. Or B) since all the disciples kept the Sabbath, Paul kept the Sabbath, Gentiles kept the Sabbath, then these earliest of Christians took the Sabbath and introduced it to those cultures that they shared the story of the Christ. Either way, it's still a day and it's hard on your "Rest, not a day" premise.

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2022
  4. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    +535
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Not the same law..as it says Galatians 3 " the Law is Not based on Faith..


    So you don't believe God's name is reference to Jesus Christ?

    You made yourself apart from the Spirit that enables you fulfilled the Righteousness of the Law..
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +8,235
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    It is true that "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 is not "based on faith"
    So also "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 is a command - and not based on faith.
    So also "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - not based on faith.

    Just as Gal 3 states... but to violate them is still "sin" even in the NT for Christians ("Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4) - which would include the TEN - having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

    As James 2 points out -- even demons and their associated cults know Jesus is the Son of God - but they still take His name in vain and it is not a "sign of faith" on their part to know He exists.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2022
  6. Icyspark

    Icyspark Member

    169
    +147
    United States
    SDA
    Married

    Hi BobRyan,

    Have you ever considered what it is the critics are really promoting? The reality is that their position actually implicates the god they believe in as not only arbitrary and errant but also vindictive and sadistic. Apparently their god gave his creatures 613 laws which he knew couldn't be kept and then punished those pathetic creatures with plagues, famines, war, etc. That doesn't sound very much like the loving and merciful God of the Bible.

    How do the critics reconcile their god's supposed cancelation of the 613 laws of the Old Testament with 1040 replacement "commandments" in the New Testament? If their god cannot be trusted in the giving of the 613 what makes them think he can be trusted to supply a new set of "commandments" which are more perfect than perfect? It doesn't make any sense.

    God bless!

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
     
  7. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    +535
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Hello Bob, the old covenant law does not require the Spirit to help you follow the commandments, hence why in Galatians 3 Paul states that the Law is Not based on Faith..it's all man without God.

    So, you can claim you love God, or keeping the 7th day Sabbath, or love your neighbor, the reality is, is just a mere words, because there is No Spirit to enables you to actually follow those commandments. It's only the Spirit that makes people follow the commandments. But under the old covenant, the Spirit is Not required to help anyone who choose to follow God through by the old covenant Law (Sinai covenant).

    So, to sum up my statement, the Spirit is absence under the old covenant, so is just you without God in you.

    Thanks
     
  8. ChristServant

    ChristServant Well-Known Member

    544
    +443
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Single
    Christ spoke about the spirit of the law. What are your thoughts on their purpose for that time especially considering they far surpassed the letter of the law and do you think the spirit of the law is relevant today?

    27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment;


    Peace be to all those in the Body of Christ.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +8,235
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    yes it does. The same "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 that is sin in the Old Testament -- is still a sin in the New. ("Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 ) even in the New Testament.

    And the lost (those without the Spirit of God) "Do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:4-10

    Galatians 3 Paul states that the Law is Not based on Faith for the lost..because it condemns all mankind as sinners as we see in Rom 3:19-20 and man needs no "faith" for that condemnation.

    But Paul says in the case of saints under the New Covenant (Heb 8:6-12) that law is written on the heart. In fact Paul says "what then - do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact our faith ESTABLISHES the Law" Rom 3:31
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +8,235
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    It is true that "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 is not "based on faith"
    So also "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 is a command - and not based on faith.
    So also "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - not based on faith.

    Just as Gal 3 states... but to violate them is still "sin" even in the NT for Christians ("Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4) - which would include the TEN - having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

    As James 2 points out -- even demons and their associated cults know Jesus is the Son of God - but they still take His name in vain and it is not a "sign of faith" on their part to know He exists.

    how is it that "there is No Spirit to enables you"??? are you claiming the Holy Spirit died or no longer exists??? That would be a bit extreme.

    Romans 8 makes it clear that the Holy Spirit enables obedience.

    It's only the Spirit that makes people follow the commandments. But under the old covenant, the Spirit is Not required to help anyone who choose to follow God through by the old covenant Law (Sinai covenant).

    the New Covenant is old testament as we see in Jer 31:31-34 under the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 preached to Abraham Gal 3:8
     
  11. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    +535
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks, the Spirit of the Law is reference to the "Holy Spirit" and the "Spirit of Christ". The Holy Spirit teaches and the Spirit of Christ put into actions what's have been revealed.

    Only through the Gospel in which the Spirit can be work in those who "believe"...


    The covenant in Sinai prevents the work of the Spirit in those who chooses to follow God through the old covenant law and commandments...

    It's all man in everything, God has no part in the work to make man righteous under this covenant..

    .."we will do everything that God said" Exodus 19:8..

    .."the person who does these things will live by them." Galatians 3:12

    The second point, Jesus demonstrates how the "letter" cannot go into depth of what the commandments really meant so we can see what's sin really is..
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2022
  12. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    +535
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    No is Not!.."is not based on Faith"..meaning Christ is excluded, and His Spirit also excluded...you end up just your own righteousness Not God...Philippians 3:9

    This is by far the most misunderstanding concept by those of the old covenant law. Thinking that they follow God by His commandments written on stones...and the results is "condemnation" and "death"..2Corins, because They leave out God and follow their own.

    "The law is Not based on Faith", therefore is Not about Jesus Christ and is Not the Gospel. Galatians is a great book to read as @Bob S has quoted in His thread.
    Is about the Jewish leaders promoting the Galatians that they have to keep the old covenant law to be justified before God etc
     
  13. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    +535
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Hello @Icyspark,

    The Pharisees knows that doing anything other then rest/worship is breaking the Sabbath..Jesus did not refuted their claim regarding His disciples breaking the Sabbath by picking grains. but Jesus was more irritated by their lack of understanding of the meaning of the Sabbath..

    The Sabbath is a spiritual rest Not a physical Rest as others think.(Pharisees)

    The Sabbath command is part of the 10 commandments given in Sinai through a covenant to Israel...

    Keeping the Sabbath command, depends on you to keep the Rest of the commandments as well. Breaking one command, is the same as breaking all the commandments..James 2

    So, claiming to keep the 7th day Sabbath command while still struggling with other commandments is just not biblical right.

    I agree, that Jesus was born under the Law just like any of us humans. But He was not under the power of the Law as He was never sin and be condemned by the Law, like us.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +8,235
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    yes it does. The same "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 that is sin in the Old Testament -- is still a sin in the New. ("Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 ) even in the New Testament.

    And the lost (those without the Spirit of God) "Do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:4-10

    Galatians 3 Paul states that the Law is Not based on Faith for the lost..because it condemns all mankind as sinners as we see in Rom 3:19-20 and man needs no "faith" for that condemnation.

    But Paul says in the case of saints under the New Covenant (Heb 8:6-12) that law is written on the heart. In fact Paul says "what then - do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact our faith ESTABLISHES the Law" Rom 3:31

    indeed for the lost - it condemns and they have no faith needed for that condemnation

    only in the case of the lost. But for the saved we have -- the saints under the New Covenant (Heb 8:6-12) that law is written on the heart. In fact Paul says "what then - do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact our faith ESTABLISHES the Law" Rom 3:31

    No wonder we have this from NT writers in 1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments;


    Where "'Honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that still valid unit of ten.

    Bible details admitted to by Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations.
     
  15. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    +535
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks Bob,

    Galatians 5:4..."You who are trying to be justified by the Law have been alienated from Christ you have fallen away from Grace"...

    Christ is "excluded" from your salvation as you follow the old covenant law to be just before God.

    It's how the old covenant is pen out.." we will do everything that God said"...

    The New covenant is covenant based on God's promises and "God will do everything" as He promised. And we must "believe" that He will fulfilled all that He promised.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +8,235
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Rev 14:12 "saints keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

    Is it your view that the saints are pursuing righteousness by works in Rev 14:12? in Rom 3:31? in 1 John 5:2-3 ... in any of what was quoted in the post you responded to???
     
  17. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    +535
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks Bob,

    The saints in Rev 14 keep the commandments of God because they have the Faith of Jesus..

    "Faith comes from hearing the message...message is heard through the word about Christ"...The Gospel! Not the law

    So,as the Law (Sinai) is Not based on Faith then no one can keep God's commandments because Faith is excluded, Christ is excluded, the Spirit is absence.

    We cannot keep the commandments of God by "works" / works of the Law i.e. law given in Sinai including the 10 commandments...

    As you quoted Romans 3:31, if you start from verse 27-31 you'll see Paul put out the two laws...law based on Faith, and Law based on works.
    The law based on works was given to the Jews Not Gentiles verse 29..

    Also in Romans 2:14.."indeed when the Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by "nature" things required by the Law...
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    +8,235
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Agreed.

    the lost do not submit to the law of God - neither indeed can they.

    Rom 8:
    4 .. the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

    ===============================


    Is it your view that the saints are pursuing righteousness by works in Rev 14:12? in Rom 3:31? in 1 John 5:2-3 ... in any of what was quoted in the post you responded to???

    But Paul says in the case of saints under the New Covenant (Heb 8:6-12) that law is written on the heart. In fact Paul says "what then - do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact our faith ESTABLISHES the Law" Rom 3:31
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  19. garee

    garee Newbie

    552
    +97
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Not a salvation issue

    The word rest (sabbath) is not a time sensitive word . Hebrew 4 informs us any time we do not harden our hearts mixing faith in what we do see we have entered the rest of Christ .

    Two kind of sabbaths one as a ceremonial shadow the other moral (do not harden ones heart) and refuse to mix faith.

    The ceremonial the forth commandment is according to a parable as reasoning law. Two different reasoning are used .One in Exodus 20 the other in Deuteronomy 5. One in creation the other moving out the nation in Deuteronomy .

    Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

    Parables used to reason are not used with the other moral commandments.

    It would seem the rest spoken of in Deuteronomy was the first day of the week, the day he said let there be light guiding them through the red Sea representing children of light, the first day to eat and share the gospel , two days were set aside not to do any regular works.
     
  20. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,276
    United States
    SDA
    Married
    Hi there,

    Why would you think the Sabbath is a parable when God literally commanded us to do something- Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8- its a commandment. A parable is an illustration of something that has a deeper meaning. A commandment means we are supposed to obey what God stated. The Sabbath came in a covenant of Ten Commandments Exodus 34:28 Exodus 20 so the teaching you are suggesting, does not line up with God’s written and spoken Word.

    You will not find this statement supported in scripture and I see you did not offer any scripture:
    There is only one weekly Sabbath commandment and God said that the Sabbath is on the seventh day Exodus 20:10. The rest in Christ (spiritual rest) is received though obedience and keeping the Sabbath commandment. Hebrews 4:9-10.

    Personally I don’t think its wise to create our own meanings to God’s clear instructions.

    God bless
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
Loading...