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No, we CAN'T assume the ludicrous. They were created with NO NEED for salvation. There was nothing to be saved from. Not until they rebelled against God.God never did.
God CREATED Adam and Eve.
We can assume they are saved.
I've proved it from Scripture. But one has to have the discernment to understand the very plain words of Scripture.So you actually think God MEANT to save all/most Gentiles during the OT Kingdom?
I guess you just really don't understand much of God's plan then. Just because a person dies without salvation doesn't mean God failed. What an absurd and ludicrous idea!Well... God FAILED almost 100% to do so.
The word "us" following "has chosen" is defined later in the chapter, in v.19, by "us who believe". So v.4 is teaching that God chooses or elects BELIEVERS (already saved people) to be holy and blameless. Election is to service, not salvation.Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Please read my posts before you keep embarrassing yourself with these ridiculous claims that are totally false.Listen, the problem is simple.
You want to pretend the Bible teaches that MAN DECIDES
who will be saved. But the Bible actually teaches that
GOD DECIDES who will be saved.
The Bible teaches that God's grace offers salvation to all people, everyone. Titus 2:11.It is really as simple as that.
You WANT a synergistic gospel while the Bible
teaches a monergistic Gospel.
OK, let's test this out. Please provide any verse that teaches that regeneration occurs BEFORE repentance, belief, salvation.You are entitled to follow whatever gospel you want.
But you are contradicting SCRIPTURE when you pretend
that (any) repentance comes before regeneration.
The Bible says differently. John 6:64 and 70-71
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why didn't you answer my question then. I asked, when you close your own eyes, can you see or not? But maybe you just don't have the "eyes" to see (discern).
You do not argue because you do not see. My comment was related to your claim that "cannot see" is because the person "wasn't meant to see", which is ridiculous, as my comment proves.
So, go ahead and close your eyes and see if you can still see. That's the whole point.
The reason people "do not believe" is because they do NOT want to believe. They reject the information. It's all about one's choices.
No it doesn't mean that. That's just YOUR opinion about it.
Fallacy. Jesus NEVER EVER said that "some men are never meant to be converted or forgiven or saved. That is just YOUR opinion.
Broken.record.
Broken.record.
Quite the broken record.
Yes and no.
Yes, ALL the Jews and ALL the Gentiles were given the opportunity to be saved.
And, no, God did not fail anyone. The offer was given, the choices were made.
Titus 2:11 refutes your notions.
See above.
The actual problem here is that your opinions are very wrong.
The biblical gospel presents the plan of God, whereby salvation is offered to all, and those who believe it will be saved. All man decides is whether to believe what God says
How about that! We agree. Of course God decides who is saved. That's what I've been saying all along. 1 Cor 1:21 even says this. "God was pleased...to save those who believe". Black and white.
Apparently not for you. By your very faulty claim about what my gospel is.
Hey, let me ask you a question.
If you were swimming and got a severe leg and stomach cramp, so that you couldn't swim or keep your head above water, and there was a lifeguard in easy distance, does your calling out for help mean that you saved yourself from drowning?
You are plainly denying the scriptures while at the same time, not quoting scripture. This is why most people reject your man made doctrine, which is just denial of the truth.
Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69
Once again, the scriptures have proven your man made, man conceived doctrine to be false.
JLB
Your continued denials are just amazing. John 6:64 with vs 70-71 clearly refute your opinions.You are plainly denying the scriptures while at the same time, not quoting scripture. This is why most people reject your man made doctrine, which is just denial of the truth.
Peter couldn't see the hearts of ANY of the other disciples. He had to assume they were all on the same page. If this is your defense, you don't have one.Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69
lol. That's what your comments are.Once again, the scriptures have proven your man made, man conceived doctrine to be false.
I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.You might want to look at the verses I quoted just above this post. The argument I was making was more to show that this topic isn't so black and white, so you really don't have to comment on that if you don't want to. I'm not even sure if I believe it myself. But the verses might help your argument.
I said to 5th kingdom:
"Why didn't you answer my question then. I asked, when you close your own eyes, can you see or not? But maybe you just don't have the "eyes" to see (discern)."
I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.
His claim is that such people were "never meant" to hear/see. But he can't prove his claim, and my question proves his claim to be in error.
Do you believe God works with His people to transform them and deliver them from ungodly traits and habits, as they grow and mature in Christ?
I believe all twelve disciples believed and therefore followed Christ up until it was time for Him to be crucified.
Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ, and the other disciples.
Peter repented and returned to Christ, and was restored.
Judas did not. He hung himself.
JLB
No, we CAN'T assume the ludicrous. They were created with NO NEED for salvation. There was nothing to be saved from. Not until they rebelled against God.
Yeah ... sorry. That post was meant for someone else. I just couldn't figure out how to delete.
I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.
His claim is that such people were "never meant" to hear/see. But he can't prove his claim, and my question proves his claim to be in error.
I checked out your post, but it doesn't seem to address my point to 5th kingdom about what "cannot see/hear" means.
His claim is that such people were "never meant" to hear/see. But he can't prove his claim, and my question proves his claim to be in error.
They didn't need a Savior until they rebelled.So, when you say "there was nothing to be saved from until they rebelled you are ADMITTING that (after they rebelled) they also needed a Savior.
Sure. After the Fall.So we are in agreement, Adam and Eve needed to be saved
(because they were fallen).
Jim
Again, your opinion is flat out wrong. The phrase in black does NOT mean "never meant to believe".Correction:
It is not MY CLAIM that some were NEVER MEANT to believe...
that is what the Lord Jesus Christ said:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
The words "LEST AT ANY TIME" are the Words of Christ (not me)
Your argument is with Jesus (not with me).
When you voluntarily close your eyes, you CAN'T see. But when you open them back up, then you DO see. Real simple. It's all about choices.Closing your eyes does not make the Words of Christ disappear.
Jim
You might want to look at the verses I quoted just above this post. The argument I was making was more to show that this topic isn't so black and white, so you really don't have to comment on that if you don't want to. I'm not even sure if I believe it myself. But the verses might help your argument.
And ONLY THEN did Jesus explain the parable that His disciples didn't understand.The passage has TWO PARTS:
The first part is about those who WERE MEANT to believe:
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:
I have noticed those words, and they do NOT mean what you keep opining.The SECOND PART is about those who were NEVER MEANT
to believe (notice the words LEST AT ANY TIME)
Since you don't want to see and understand that every person faces the choice of whether to believe the gospel or not, further explanation seems futile.but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
I absolutely do trust the Words of Christ. It's YOUR opinions that I DARE NOT to trust.This is not difficult if you DARE to trust the Words of Christ
Uh, where do you get the idea that John 6 taught "salvation by election"?However, if we are like the "disciples" who abandoned Jesus
in John 6:65-66 because they did not want salvation by election...
then this passage is VERY HARD TO HEAR
Sure. After the Fall.
The verse does NOT say they "cannot" believe, as in ability. It simply says they DON'T believe. Why? Because they don't want to. Real simple.BTW... notice John 10:26 says WHY some men cannot believe?
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.
Those who believe that "all men are the sheep of Christ" apparently cannot read plain words then.The Gospel of Christ is a HARD GOSPEL for those who want
to believe that ALL MEN are the "sheep" of Christ.
Uh, where do you get the idea that John 6 taught "salvation by election"?
The verse does NOT say they "cannot" believe, as in ability. It simply says they DON'T believe. Why? Because they don't want to. Real simple.
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