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Tell me about Hell

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Grumpy Old Man, Sep 8, 2011.

  1. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    That's quite a bit different from your previous statement! Here you have qualified yourself to talking exclusively about a 40-year period, perhaps a little longer. Out of a 4,000 year history BC, please notice this "golden age" represents 10%, the tithe, that "belongs to the Lord." Also please notice all these numbers were recorded (or concocted, if you prefer) before Christ was born, by people that still do not believe Jesus is Messiah. I know I know, coincidence, right? ^_^

    So out of the entire history of the Jews, there was this brief moment where Israel as a whole came to take not only miracles, but G-d's Presence for granted. Very astute observation! What we should be taking away from this
    is, among other things, the answer to some very demanding questions posed by atheists here lately: why G-d does not furnish any such proofs with such regularity that we can take them for granted.

    Now to address magic:

    there is VERY little occurrence of it anywhere in the Bible. Did you know "Pharaoh's magicians" was the same guy that was a Prophet from outside Israel, who had a donkey talk to him? Him and his sons. He was sought out by Kings at age 16; a very unusual character. I know of 2 other instances of any sort of magic, one in the OT and one in the new. Again, not at all a frequent occurrence as you suggested.

    ^_^ Clearly they did NOT explain sticks into snakes ^_^ Even if this were later embellishment, and even if the Exodus never even happened, the rich collection of points in the text are still applicable in the daily life of the believer, today. This is why we have it!

    No, we have no indication from the text any such event was common in those days. The implication is the opposite!

    Miracles of God vs mishaps of nature = false dichotomy.
     
  2. GA777

    GA777 Newbie

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    Please name me 1.
    And arent you familiar that when the bodies of the disciples die , they would see Jesus immediately out of their body experiences?So that was right 100%,if you cant understand what he says,it doesnt mean that what he says is not true.
    And he was talking about the destruction of the temple,and it happened 40s years after he said that,so here you go,you just stated another fulfilled prophecy.

    You were originally asking about hell but changed the topic to that the bible is false etc. , it is clear that that wasnt clearly what you were looking for (the original subject). And as for the prophecy,Proof is there in front of your eyes,it is 100%, and you can google it in 5 min and get the answers. and if you want me,I can post more.the problem is there is no proof of 1 failed prophecy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
  3. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever heard of the Jeffferson Bible? It's a work you might appreciate. (Made by a self-professing Christian who would put most of those today to shame, btw)

    You got the name right! And there are encouraging elements in it, to be sure. And more than just "modeled on Hebrew stories," at least some of that acted as code, so the info could be passed w/ being censored. Those that would censor it no doubt got bored trying to read it, and shrugged. Saved many believer's lives - quite successful in that regard!

    What you're missing is it is a depiction of Liturgical worship which is why it was admitted into the Bible. The only book not read aloud in Church that was! So every aspect of it has present-day application in the life of the believer.

    That's quite the assertion there! Will it stand up to scrutiny? First, you have to claim to understand what Jesus said, which is every bit as obscure as any part of Revelation, and the knowledge of it is revealed the same way. Next, you have to claim to understand what happened during the Apostle's lifetime, which can only be known via first-hand experience; something you lack as an unbeliever.

    What just happened to your assertion? :confused:
     
  4. golgotha61

    golgotha61 World Christian in Progress Supporter

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    Like I said, I have studied the various criticisms and I deny many of the claims because of their lack of evidence. The verse you refer to may or may not have been added since Ryrie and others state the story is probably true although it does not appear in the earliest manuscripts. Again it points to the definition of error free in the original autographs.

    No they are not the originals but they show the great care of the scribes in copying the scriptures and how the Word of God has not been tampered with through the centuries that would change the major theological truths or doctrines.

    The Bible is literally true according to the language used. We can tell in the language what is allegory, simile, metaphor, hyperbole, and parable. This then is the context we interpret the Bible from.


    Well, other scholars disagree with Erhman so take your pick. I tend to put more credence in the scholarly writings of supporters of the Bible and not the skeptics.Erhman also denies the resurrection of Christ, so with this in mind, I don't need to read anything he has to say. He then is operating under the spirit of the anti-christ and what ever he says about the Word of God is heresy.
     
  5. Grumpy Old Man

    Grumpy Old Man Active Member

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    Failed Prophecies

    Just some of my favourites:











    An equally quick Google will come up with many pages, like the one I found. I've known about some of these for a while (such as the misquote Matthew attributes to Jeremiah, and the failed prophecy of Damascus' destruction), others are new to me. I'm sure you'll come up with some refutation. I'm not interested though. I'm interested in talking about Hell and what we can actually know about it from the Bible, and whether it has been fictionalised by literature.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
  6. Grumpy Old Man

    Grumpy Old Man Active Member

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    I'm addressing this in a new thread because I wanted to talk about Hell in this one and it's gotten completely off track.
     
  7. GA777

    GA777 Newbie

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    1- * The prophecy is still true,it was just mistranslated.
    * Jesus has "many" names.Emmanuel means God with us,which exactly describes Jesus.Just like the devil has many names,like Lucifer,and Satan (which isnt his original name,and means the enemy,but he's named like that so names considered in the supernatural world arent the same considered in our humans world.And here is another name of Jesus in revelations 19:13 (13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.).So this point is invalid

    2-It was never stated that the river will be dried up forever,but dried up tho. there hasnt been found any history evidence that it didnt at those times.And the prophecies are most of the times if not all the times literal anyways.

    3-It is not mentioned that the prophecy is meant for now,it can happen later on, after 10 or 20 or 30 years.

    4- I dont know how to explain this,but here's a link for this which assures that this prophecy isnt wrong and is true,because zechariah wasnt talking about judas,and that it is directly linked to the prophecy of Jeremiah:
    Was Matthew Referncing Jeremiah, or Zechariah?

    5- He didnt specify which prophets,it could be prophets like enoch whom books werent included in the OT of the jews or books which were lost at that time.
    And he said "spoken by the prophets" which is a unique statement in the bible referring to a prophecy which can mean too that their descriptions of Jesus fit perfectly that he was from Nazareth,for example people used to say that nothing good can come out of that town etc. and it was prophecized that he will be rejected and such things,so he linked their sayings then got to the conclusion that he would have been a nazarene.

    6- Dictionary
    Search Results
    here·af·ter
    adverb /hi(ə)rˈaftər/ 
    From now on


    At some time in the future


    After death

    (google dictionnary)

    It means after death or sometime in the future (which can mean after death too,he never stated that they will see his coming a few years later or when they are still breathing) so this prophecy is true too

    It is clear here that these prophecies arent wrong,if they arent as easy to understand or misinterpreted it doesnt mean that they didnt happen.
     
  8. GA777

    GA777 Newbie

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    And you posted that many prophecies,how about I post some of mines which cant be proved wrong?And which can be clearly proved to be valid now?
     
  9. Grumpy Old Man

    Grumpy Old Man Active Member

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    Go ahead.
     
  10. GA777

    GA777 Newbie

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    I'll start with this:

    Egypt

    At one time the Egyptian Empire included Canaan, Syria and Lebanon, reaching to the upper Euphrates. The future of Egypt was foretold in detail:

    It shall be the lowliest of the kingdoms; it shall never again exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish them so that they will not rule over the nations any more. Ezekiel 29:15 (NKJV).

    . . . and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt: and I will put fear in the land of Egypt. Ezekiel 30:13 (KJV).

    History shows the fulfillment of these prophecies. Egypt has not ruled over the nations since the time of the prophet Ezekiel (this prophecy). Egypt has been ruled by the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, Constantinople, the Saracen Arabs, the Mamelukes, the Turks, the French, and the English. In recent years, Egypt has not had princes.And it is really one of the lowliest nations.

    For 2,500 years Egypt has been a lowly nation, just as the prophet foretold. You can visit Egypt and see that Egypt is truly one of the lowliest of nations. Its economy is down too and it is weak in millitary...
     
  11. Grumpy Old Man

    Grumpy Old Man Active Member

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    I've got nothing on this particular prophecy so far. However, it appears Ezekiel was somewhat hit and miss with his prophecies. Ezekiel predicted the destruction of Tyre in chapter 26 by Nebuchadnezzar. Specifically, Ezekiel states in chapter 26 v 14 (and 21) that Tyre would never be rebuilt. Tyre had two parts, an island part and a mainland part. Nebuchadnezzar succeeded in destroying only the mainland part but failed to capture the island part during a 13 year siege. Tyre eventually fell to Alexander the Great, but was rebuilt and became part of the Roman empire. It still exists today.

    Ezekiel successfully predicted the end of the exile and the return to Jerusalem, but again, it's a mixed bag. His prediction that Israel would remain in their land forever failed. On a sidenote, God, through the prophet Nathan, promises David in 2 Samuel 24:10, that Israel "would no longer be disturbed". This clearly didn't come to pass because Israel was continually harrassed by its neighbours and eventually went into exile.

    Anyway, I'm interested in seeing what other fulfilled prophecies you have.
     
  12. GrayAngel

    GrayAngel Senior Member

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    1. It doesn't say that Nebuchadnezzar would be the only one to attack Tyre, or even that he would deal the finishing blow. It says that God would cause multiple nations to lay siege on Tyre. So he was correct in this prediction.

    2. If it became dissolved into Rome, then by definition, Tyre no longer exists. At least, not in it's previous form.

    II Samuel 24:10 - David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing."

    What? You must mean II Samuel 7:10.

    And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also give you rest from all your enemies. (Also 11)

    It doesn't say that Israel would never be bothered by their enemies. Instead, the very next verse says that He would give them "rest," implying that it will not be an everlasting peace. In fact, elsewhere in the Bible, there are predictions that the temple in Israel would be destroyed. To this day, it's still in ruins.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
  13. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Dante may not have began it's fictionalization, but he at least contributed to it. We can't actually know nearly enough about hell from the Bible to say much of anything specific, and CF stands as a testimony to that. There is unbelievable bandwidth devoted to people who are adamant about both sides of this issue, and nobody has been able to answer my questions.

    If you want to get to the bottom of this, find what the Jews taught about it in Jesus' day. If He had meant something different than the prevailing ideas of the time, He would've specified, and it would've been recorded. IMHO.
     
  14. Grumpy Old Man

    Grumpy Old Man Active Member

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    Yes, I meant 2 Sam 7:10. That's what happens when you reply to posts really late at night I guess. Anyway, what else is "no longer be disturbed" supposed to mean? And you quoted v11 as well where it says God will give Israel rest from its enemies. That clearly didn't happen.

    As for Ezekiel, when God says Tyre will "never be rebuilt" (ch 26:14) and yet Tyre is still standing today, what am I supposed to understand from that? In v19 God goes on to say that the ocean waters will cover it. That didn't happen.

    Also, while Ezekiel did speak of other nations invading Tyre in chapter 26, the majority of the prophecy was written about Nebuchadnezzar's invasion of Tyre. Of course, other nations did attack Tyre (I already mentioned Alexander the Great), but Tyre was not destroyed, and the ocean did not cover it as prophecied. Tyre still stands today.

    Bible prophecy is hit and miss. Some can be said to have come true, but then others clearly haven't. There's a prophecy somewhere (I can't remember where it is but I'll look for it later) that says Damascus would be destroyed and uninhabited too, yet it's still standing to this day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2011
  15. Grumpy Old Man

    Grumpy Old Man Active Member

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    Well, I'm reading Mark just now and Jesus first mentions Hell there in chapter 9. From what I can tell, people seemed to know about Hell in Jesus' day. Yet for some reason there's almost nothing about Hell itself, described as a punishment for a life of sin, in the Old Testament.
     
  16. GA777

    GA777 Newbie

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    God said that nebuchad will be one of the many destroyers,and he clearly stated that "many nations will come" and not 1,and a few more came there until Alexander the Great completely destroyed it .And depends on which Tyre you're talking about.The old Tyre wasnt the new tyre,it was only built on the seashore,and that was the only land which had people living there.And it is now completely destroyed and ruined and phishers keep phishing from there sice lots of years,just like God predicted that they will spread their fishnets forever. So this is another true prophecy.And where was it stated that the ocean covered it?
    And it was never said that Damascus would be destroyed forever,at least I dont think so,and even if it said,damascus like the other cities before was much smaller,so the city God was talking about would be ruined now (The small old damascus).

    There are 1000s prophecies in the bible,you cant try to bring all of them and verify if they are all true to believe,because that would take lots of time
     
  17. GA777

    GA777 Newbie

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    The Philistines

    The Philistines lived in the southwestern part of the land of Canaan, on the plains along the Mediterranean Sea. Their cities were Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, Gath, and Gerar. They fought much against Israel. This is recorded in the Bible from the book of Judges to 2 Chronicles. The word of God prophesied against the Philistines that God would destroy them. In about 765 B.C., the prophet Amos recorded:
    Amos 1:6-8: Thus says the LORD:
    "For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away its punishment,
    Because they took captive the whole captivity
    To deliver them up to Edom.
    But I will send a fire upon the wall of Gaza,
    Which shall devour its palaces.
    I will cut off the inhabitant from Ashdod,
    And the one who holds the scepter from Ashkelon;
    I will turn My hand against Ekron,
    And the remnant of the Philistines shall perish,"
    Says the Lord GOD. (NKJB)
    Also: Zephaniah 2:3-7. Jeremiah 47:4,5. Isaiah 14:28-31.

    God used the Babylonians in 604 B.C. to destroy the Philistines. 2 Kings 24:7. The judgment of God came upon the Philistines. They were destroyed, and taken away to punish. (Lawrence Stager, "The Fury of Babylon." Biblical Archaeology Review, Jan./Feb.1996, pp. 56-77.) Today, Arabs live in Gaza, and Israelis live in Askelon and Ashdod. Ekron, Gath and Gerar are ruins. The remnant of the Philistines perished, just as foretold by God in Amos.





    Babylon

    Babylon was a great city on the Euphrates River. Under Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and took the people captive to Babylon in 586 B.C. Isaiah and Jeremiah foretold the desolation of Babylon:

    And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. Isaiah 13:19-20 (KJV). (Before 680 B.C.)

    Because of the wrath of the Lord it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues. Jeremiah 50:13 (KJV).

    In 539 B.C., Babylon fell to the Medes and the Persians. Its decline was gradual. The Parthians destroyed much of the city. In about A.D. 75 the merchants moved.

    With the departure of the merchants, Babylon was left to its doom. Shortly afterwards the Latin author Pliny stated that the temple of Marduk was still standing but that in every other respect the place had become a desert. In A.D. 116 the Roman emperor Trajan wintered in the city during his campaign against the Parthians. Attracted to it by its widespread fame, he found nothing but mounds and stones and ruins.9

    The Germans excavated Babylon's ruins. Their maps show the desolation.10 Arab villages are outside of what was Babylon. For 1900 years Babylon has been uninhabited.
     
  18. Grumpy Old Man

    Grumpy Old Man Active Member

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    Ezekiel 26:19-20

    New International Version (NIV)

    19 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place[a] in the land of the living.


    Your interpretation of this prophecy and it's "fulfilment" is very liberal. Tyre still stands and can be found today;

    Ezekiel 26:21

    New International Version (NIV)

    21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

    Tyre can be found -> Tyre, Lebanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Read that Wiki entry above. Tyre was never completely destroyed actually. Several kings conquered the city but never destroyed it outright. Alexander probably did the most damage, using stones from the old city to build a causeway, but again, the city itself was never destroyed utterly to the point that it could never be found again. I don't know what more I need to say to prove that this is a clear example of failed prophecy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2011
  19. GA777

    GA777 Newbie

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    And it is said too that parts of the actual Tyre are drown already centuries and centuries ago.I cannot give you any proof of this tho.,and no proof can show that it didnt.But there is no evidence showing if this prophecy was true or not.And this prophecy was meant to happen after the "many nations" came into it,when Tyre was ~mostly covered by ruins.


    I know about Tyre,and I live right next to it.Tyre was much much smaller 2400s years ago,it was only built on the seashore,and it contained a small island for the refuge.And God was talking to the Tyrians 2500s years ago,not the tyrians living now,and the prophecy was meant to happen before,for those people.And it happened.This Tyre is another Tyre,it is a merge of the old tyre which is nothing but a bare rock and destruction (Tyre was built on a rock),and of new lands on the east of it.I'm not talking of my own,but this is widely known.Here you go,you can see the ruins yourself

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=560&q=ruins%20tyre%20island&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=869271l873531l0l873683l17l11l0l0l0l0l544l1062l5-2l2l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og
     
  20. Grumpy Old Man

    Grumpy Old Man Active Member

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    OK, so there are ruins of an older Tyre. I saw them in the Wiki entry I linked above. The fact remains that Tyre can still be found which refutes this;

    Ezekiel 26:21

    New International Version (NIV)

    21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

    The prophecy predicts the utter destruction of Tyre to the point that the city will cease to exist. It will never again be found.

    This really is the last thing I'm going to say on this particular prophecy. The fact that you live near Tyre, which should not exist according to Ezekiel, should be a daily slap in the face regarding this failed prophecy. You're living right next to a city that God said would never be found again.
     
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