Tell me about Hell

Grumpy Old Man

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I'm reading, these days, that more and more Christians are conflicted about what Hell actually is. Some believe it's a place of eternal physical torment. Other's believe it is just death - the grave - and an absence of God. These Christians say that our modern understanding of Hell is warped because of Dante and Milton (I've heard this several times now from different sources, one being someone else on these forums).

Hell is a big turn off for me in believing in a loving God. It's a cliché I know, but a true one nonetheless. I find it hard to believe that a benevolent God would submit someone to eternal torment. If we, as humans, can find torture repulsive, shouldn't God? If we are made in his image, why has our morality superseded his in this regard?

So, tell me about Hell. What's the truth? Is it a real place of eternal fiery torment or is this a distorted medieval representation of a place that is much less scary?
 

Mr Dave

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Paula Gooder speaks well on this topic, I heard her recently at greenbelt on the topic. I haven't listened to this yet, but I imagine it would give a fairly good overview - A Rough Guide to Hell : Dr Paula Gooder : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

The Bible isn't wholly clear on the subject of hell, and most certainly the common perception is an amalgamation of several possible views and the mediaeval Dante and Miltonian view all coming together.

Hell as a term has become blurred, through artistic depictions and the fact that some Bibles used 'hell' as a translation for a number of different words, all meaning slightly different things.

Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus have all at some point been translated as 'Hell', and it'd be worth looking into each of these (although Paula Gooder may go into this in the talk).
Hades and Tartarus play on Greek mythology.

Hades is like a NT equivalent of sheol, being 'the abode of the dead' and the source of our view of 'hell' being 'down there'. They are 'the grave' or the underworld and ooze with a sense of being a non-good, non-bad place below the earth where we go when we die.

Afraid I have to go out so can't go on right now, but I hope this gives you somet things to ponder.
 
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drich0150

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I'm reading, these days, that more and more Christians are conflicted about what Hell actually is.
Even If Hell wasn't an infinite expanse and was only the size of North America, or Even just one state it would still be big enough for most of these descriptions to be true:

Some believe it's a place of eternal physical torment. Other's believe it is just death - the grave - and an absence of God. These Christians say that our modern understanding of Hell is warped because of Dante and Milton (I've heard this several times now from different sources, one being someone else on these forums).
Or perhaps in stages all of these things to be true.

Hell is a big turn off for me in believing in a loving God. It's a cliché I know, but a true one nonetheless. I find it hard to believe that a benevolent God would submit someone to eternal torment.
What do you think Heaven would be for someone who has spent their life putting distance between themselves and God if not eternal torment?

If we, as humans, can find torture repulsive, shouldn't God?
That is why He will never drag someone kicking and screaming into heaven.

If we are made in his image, why has our morality superseded his in this regard?
One our "morality" is based on God's expressed righteousness. Any version of Morality that does not parallel His, is indeed a personal sense of Righteousness. Or a "Self Righteousness." And two you have over looked the fact that many of us Choose not to be with God. Why would God force them to be with Him?

So, tell me about Hell. What's the truth? Is it a real place of eternal fiery torment or is this a distorted medieval representation of a place that is much less scary?
We do not have words that can even place us in the same world of "scary" that Hell resides. "Scary" only describes one singular dimension of Hell. Their are many many others.

Post# 6 is what little I know of it:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7474493/
 
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GrayAngel

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If you take what the Bible says 100% literally, this is the picture you get of the afterlife:

You have Heaven, a city made of gold and all kinds of precious gemstones. On the outside is a gate surrounded all the way. There's a door there which is permanently closed after judgement, and no one can get in our out.

Around the gate is Paradise, the place where the Jews went to wait for Christ's sacrifice to grant them access to Heaven. And around that is a chasm. Then we finally get to the end, an infinite fire burning everything else.

I don't know about you, but an infinite sea of fire is not exactly what I'd consider a great view from Heaven's window.

In my opinion, I'd say Heaven and Hell are things we cannot imagine, or else are not expected to understand. What we know is that Heaven is perfect, Hell is not. The defining difference between the two is the presence or absence or God. And you may not think it's not such a big dead to be separated from God, it is. Especially when those in Hell know that they're missing.

Also, there's a judgement after death, both for Heaven and Hell. The one for Hell determines how harshly each will be punished. Hell will be worse for people who've committed crimes like murder or rape. Everyone will not get the same treatment there.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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"Those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful. That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability." - St. Isaac the Syrian, 7th century

"I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside." - C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

"It’s not a question of God “sending” us to Hell. In each of us there is something growing up which will of itself be Hell unless it is nipped in the bud. The matter is serious: let us put ourselves in His hands at once – this very day, this hour." – C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock

These quotes in general epitomize my view and understanding of Hell. Hell isn't a location, Hell is self-imposed, and begins here in this life. In each of us we fashion our own Hell through a life long discipline in being selfish, self-centered and acts of minor and major injustices against our fellow man. The fruit of such a life-long pursuit can only be called Hell when that is exactly what our lives have become when the fullness of our lives are brought about in the End.

To see the great joy of God in His universal love for all, selfless and all of that love selflessly reciprocated by those in Him and see how one's own life has born nothing but a self-imposed prison of loathing that can only be called Hell.

Now, the big question is whether one must be in Hell forever, or further, must Hell be forever?

I don't believe Hell must be forever. I hope and pray that Hell, one day, be empty and that all are saved.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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golgotha61

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I'm reading, these days, that more and more Christians are conflicted about what Hell actually is. Some believe it's a place of eternal physical torment. Other's believe it is just death - the grave - and an absence of God. These Christians say that our modern understanding of Hell is warped because of Dante and Milton (I've heard this several times now from different sources, one being someone else on these forums).

Hell is a big turn off for me in believing in a loving God. It's a cliché I know, but a true one nonetheless. I find it hard to believe that a benevolent God would submit someone to eternal torment. If we, as humans, can find torture repulsive, shouldn't God? If we are made in his image, why has our morality superseded his in this regard?

So, tell me about Hell. What's the truth? Is it a real place of eternal fiery torment or is this a distorted medieval representation of a place that is much less scary?


In the Old Testament the word “sheol” occurs 65 times and is used in a variety of ways. The grave, a place of the dead where both good and bad people go upon death, believers are rescued from Sheol, the wicked go to Sheol upon death. The main focus in the Old Testament seems to be where the bodies of the dead go and not the souls.

Hades is used 10 times in the New Testament and is the equivalent to the Hebrew word Sheol. In the Septuagint, the word Sheol is almost always translated by Hades. Hades is used as a place of punishment 3 times, as the state of death for both believers and unbelievers 7 times.

Gehenna occurs 12 times in the New Testament and is a designation for eternal punishment taken form the Hebrew “ge hinnom”, referring to the Valley of Hinnom where the worship of Moleck took place and infants were sacrificed in fire to the god Molech.(2 Kings 16:3; 17:17; 21:6). The valley also became a place of refuse and dead bodies of animals and criminals were burned there. As a result gehenna became synonymous with eternal punishment. It describes the punishment connected with the final judgment, a punishment that is eternal in duration, not annihilation (Matt. 23:15,33; 25:41, 46.

Tataroo occurs only in 2 Peter 2:4 and is used in Hellenistic Judaism in connection with fallen angels.

Abyss means “bottomless” and is the prison for demons (Luke 8:31, Rev.9:1, 2, 11). Satan is the king over the demons in the abyss (Rev.9:11). At the second coming of Christ, Satan will be bound and confined to the abyss for a thousand years.

Other terms for hell are: “unquenchable fire” (Matt.3:12; Mark 9:43, 48), “eternal fire” (Matt. 25:41), “furnace of fire” (Matt. 13:42, 50), “outer darkness” (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 25:30), “the lake that burns with fire and brimstone” (Rev.21:8), and “lake of fire” (Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15). Rev. 20:11-15 says unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment and there they will live in torment for eternity.

Jesus infers hell is a literal fire (cf. Matt. 5:22, 30; 13:29-30). In Matt. 25:46 the term aionion is used to define eternal judgment and eternal life, so if life is eternal, so is judgment. I understand the trouble of mentally processing a God of love and a God who would sentence people to hell. One cannot understand a God of love without referencing His holiness and I believe this is where we fall short. We all know what evil, hate, and all those things that comprise sin look like because we are in it every day of our lives but who or what do we know that is holy? It is the holiness of God and the absolute hideousness of sin that makes it impossible for Him to not punish sin for eternity. If God did not punish sin with the place of eternal torment then He would not be holy.
 
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bsd31

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I personally take the Bible for what it is worth regarding hell. I don't see any need to give it different qualities than what the Scriptures have told us about it all along.

But then as a Christian I believe the Bible is infallible, even as it exists today. If I found cause not to believe one part of the Bible I'd have cause not to believe the entire thing. Because the whole "infallible" idea would be out the window.
 
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elopez

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I'm reading, these days, that more and more Christians are conflicted about what Hell actually is. Some believe it's a place of eternal physical torment. Other's believe it is just death - the grave - and an absence of God. These Christians say that our modern understanding of Hell is warped because of Dante and Milton (I've heard this several times now from different sources, one being someone else on these forums).
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" - Matthew 25:46. The same word "eternal" as used to describe eternal life is used for punishment. So, if life is everlasting so too is punishment. This is why it cannot just be 'death.' I mean I call Hell death but in the spiritual sense.

When it comes to physical torment, questions arise in my mind as if the view doesn't withstand reasoning or Scripture. I cannot think of one single verse in the Bible that describes Hell as physical torment. Also, I cannot see even then how an immaterial soul can be physically tormented? Doesn't follow.

So yes, I would say that our modern preconception of Hell is characterized by works such as Dante and Milton. I would also say it would be very mistaken of us to do so as they are nothing but poetry. There is truth in poetry, but that doesn't mean we take the text literally.


Hell is a big turn off for me in believing in a loving God. It's a cliché I know, but a true one nonetheless. I find it hard to believe that a benevolent God would submit someone to eternal torment. If we, as humans, can find torture repulsive, shouldn't God? If we are made in his image, why has our morality superseded his in this regard?
Again this all depends on what you mean by "torture." Where is torture mentioned of Hell in Scripture? It is rendered as "punishment," "destruction," "fire." Never "torture," or even physical torture at that.

So, tell me about Hell. What's the truth? Is it a real place of eternal fiery torment or is this a distorted medieval representation of a place that is much less scary?
The only truth of Hell is that the thought of it is offsetting. It is horrendous. Completely paralyzing. I believe the experience is "forever" in duration as Scripture indicates. "Fire" on the other hand I take to mean as allegorical as again an immaterial soul cannot experience a physical sensation such as burning.
 
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Faulty

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Hell is a big turn off for me in believing in a loving God. It's a cliché I know, but a true one nonetheless. I find it hard to believe that a benevolent God would submit someone to eternal torment. If we, as humans, can find torture repulsive, shouldn't God? If we are made in his image, why has our morality superseded his in this regard?

That's quite arrogent of you, to think that in your fallen nature you could ever supersede God in anything.

What this highlights is not a deficiency of His part, but a complete lack of understanding on our part, just how bad our sin actually is to a perfect and holy God.

You have two choices to be acceptable to Him, keep the Law of God perfectly from your birth to your death, and never screw up, not even once, or trust in Jesus as your substitute, who did live a perfect sinless life as was required, then endured the wrath of the Father while on the cross, for your behalf. That's it. There is no third way.

Otherwise, you get to stand in front of God, who must judge sin, and has warned you He will do just that so there will be no surprises, with a lifetime full of sin. Then you get to tell this God, who allowed the world to plunge into sin over a single act of disobedience, that you rejected His one Son as insufficient and unworthy to take away your guilt. Then because a just judge cannot let the guilty go free, you will be found guilty and sentenced.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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That's quite arrogent of you, to think that in your fallen nature you could ever supersede God in anything.

I've never committed genocide, ethnic cleansing, murder, child sacrifice or eternal torture. In these respects I'm quite comfortable saying that my morality supersedes that of God.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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I personally take the Bible for what it is worth regarding hell. I don't see any need to give it different qualities than what the Scriptures have told us about it all along.

But then as a Christian I believe the Bible is infallible, even as it exists today. If I found cause not to believe one part of the Bible I'd have cause not to believe the entire thing. Because the whole "infallible" idea would be out the window.

I stumbled across this mistake while reading Mark last night;

Mark 2 said:
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

1 Samuel said:
1 Samuel 21

David at Nob

1 David went to Nob, to Ahimelek the priest. Ahimelek trembled when he met him, and asked, “Why are you alone? Why is no one with you?” 2 David answered Ahimelek the priest, “The king sent me on a mission and said to me, ‘No one is to know anything about the mission I am sending you on.’ As for my men, I have told them to meet me at a certain place. 3 Now then, what do you have on hand? Give me five loaves of bread, or whatever you can find.”
4 But the priest answered David, “I don’t have any ordinary bread on hand; however, there is some consecrated bread here—provided the men have kept themselves from women.”
5 David replied, “Indeed women have been kept from us, as usual whenever I set out. The men’s bodies are holy even on missions that are not holy. How much more so today!” 6 So the priest gave him the consecrated bread, since there was no bread there except the bread of the Presence that had been removed from before the LORD and replaced by hot bread on the day it was taken away.
7 Now one of Saul’s servants was there that day, detained before the LORD; he was Doeg the Edomite, Saul’s chief shepherd.
8 David asked Ahimelek, “Don’t you have a spear or a sword here? I haven’t brought my sword or any other weapon, because the king’s mission was urgent.”
9 The priest replied, “The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom you killed in the Valley of Elah, is here; it is wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod. If you want it, take it; there is no sword here but that one.”
David said, “There is none like it; give it to me.”

The writer of Mark makes a clear mistake. Ahimelek is actually the priest David received the consecrated bread from, not Abiathar.

Another clear mistake in the Bible;

Ezra 2:5 (KJV): The children of Arah, seven hundred seventy and five.
Nehemiah 7:10 (KJV): The children of Arah, six hundred fifty and two.

Another one;

2 Samuel 17:25 (KJV): And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.
1 Chronicles 2:17 (KJV): And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.

There's more but I can't be bothered finding them right now.
 
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Mr Dave

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Sooo, to get back on topic.

You went to 1 Sam, on the topic of hell I'd have thought you would have brought up 1 Sam 28.

Samuel is brought up from the afterlife and says "Then Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ "

This suggests that he was resting in Sheol, and neither in a place of paradise nor of torment.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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Again this all depends on what you mean by "torture." Where is torture mentioned of Hell in Scripture? It is rendered as "punishment," "destruction," "fire." Never "torture," or even physical torture at that.

The line between eternal punishment and torture is a very fine one indeed. Punishment for a short time I can understand. But eternal punishment is really nothing less than torture. And from what Jesus describes in his story of the rich man and Lazarus, the people in Heaven can actually hear those in Hell and converse with them. The rich man was conscious of his suffering and described himself as being in agony. It's torture.

I've heard some people say the rich man and Lazarus story is just a parable, but it's clear that Jesus believed it.
 
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Mr Dave

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The line between eternal punishment and torture is a very fine one indeed. Punishment for a short time I can understand. But eternal punishment is really nothing less than torture. And from what Jesus describes in his story of the rich man and Lazarus, the people in Heaven can actually hear those in Hell and converse with them. The rich man was conscious of his suffering and described himself as being in agony. It's torture.

I've heard some people say the rich man and Lazarus story is just a parable, but it's clear that Jesus believed it.

Interesting one that. There seems to be several strands of thought going on in the Bible. This is one of them; that a place of afterlife exists for all people. That there is one location with a sort of geological separation, Luke mentions a chasm, a similar idea is found in the non-Canonical book of 1 Enoch, where there are 'hollows' inhabited by different groups of people. They are awaiting judgement, people are separated by the righteous, the sinners, and people who have been murdered.* Luke seems to intonate this view that existed at the time.


*1 Enoch 22:1-14 The Wesley Center Online: Book Of Enoch

1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.' 8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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Sooo, to get back on topic.

You went to 1 Sam, on the topic of hell I'd have thought you would have brought up 1 Sam 28.

Samuel is brought up from the afterlife and says "Then Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ "

This suggests that he was resting in Sheol, and neither in a place of paradise nor of torment.

This is an interesting story. It gives credence to the practices of clairvoyants, which I've personally always thought of as smoke and mirrors. However, the Bible also gives credence to the validity of practical magic (eg, the Egyptian magicians turning their staffs into snakes). But I don't believe in magic or clairvoyance so I would have to count such occurrences in the Bibles as just stories rather than literal happenings. If we could talk with our dead loved ones, it would be practised much more than it is currently and there would also be scientific empirical proof of an afterlife.

Therefore I think the story you describe here is just that, a story about the fall of Saul. His seeking a witch to talk to the dead Samuel is used to show how desperate Saul is.
 
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Mr Dave

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This is an interesting story. It gives credence to the practices of clairvoyants, which I've personally always thought of as smoke and mirrors. However, the Bible also gives credence to the validity of practical magic (eg, the Egyptian magicians turning their staffs into snakes). But I don't believe in magic or clairvoyance so I would have to count such occurrences in the Bibles as just stories rather than literal happenings. If we could talk with our dead loved ones, it would be practised much more than it is currently and there would also be scientific empirical proof of an afterlife.

Therefore I think the story you describe here is just that, a story about the fall of Saul. His seeking a witch to talk to the dead Samuel is used to show how desperate Saul is.

I agree with you. I think it does tell us something of the belief though regarding the afterlife that the Biblical writers did not consider the immediate place we go to to be a place of paradise nor a place of torture.
 
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GrayAngel

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This is an interesting story. It gives credence to the practices of clairvoyants, which I've personally always thought of as smoke and mirrors. However, the Bible also gives credence to the validity of practical magic (eg, the Egyptian magicians turning their staffs into snakes). But I don't believe in magic or clairvoyance so I would have to count such occurrences in the Bibles as just stories rather than literal happenings. If we could talk with our dead loved ones, it would be practised much more than it is currently and there would also be scientific empirical proof of an afterlife.

Therefore I think the story you describe here is just that, a story about the fall of Saul. His seeking a witch to talk to the dead Samuel is used to show how desperate Saul is.

Under normal circumstances, we can't perform magic. No matter how many times you throw a staff to the ground, it won't turn into a snake. However, there are spirits with supernatural power to do such things. These include demons, angels, and God. Witchcraft is Satanic, and it's supplied by evil spirits.

In modern day society, I wouldn't expect to see any genuine witchcraft. First of all, even in Biblical days, real magic was far from common. Second, when demons do act, just as with God, we count it as coincidence. But I think there's also been a shift in strategy.

In the Old Testament, demons allowed people to perform miracles so they could give credit to false gods. Today, religion spreads quite well enough on its own, and devil is more concerned with laying low and staying off the radar. Widespread skepticism is their current weapon of choice.

However, the Anti-Christ is supposed to be able to perform miracles too, if my understanding is correct. He'll be using them to make himself appear to be God, either literally or figuratively. History seems to be moving us into a place of such unified thought that we will be very vulnerable to this tactic.
 
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elopez

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The line between eternal punishment and torture is a very fine one indeed. Punishment for a short time I can understand. But eternal punishment is really nothing less than torture.
So how short of a punishment do you think is adequate? How 'short' is 'short'? It is only torture because that is the way you subjectively perceive it. What does "torture" even mean here? Again it cannot be physical as our soul is immaterial.

And from what Jesus describes in his story of the rich man and Lazarus, the people in Heaven can actually hear those in Hell and converse with them. The rich man was conscious of his suffering and described himself as being in agony. It's torture.
Those beliefs of Hell, which consequently a minority of Christians do hold, are actually mistaken. Those who have eternal life are not aware of those in Hell, and certainly cannot talk with them. "Torment" in the verse in Greek is basanos which means, "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it." If we replace "man" with "metals" we get torture as a form of test. So in this verse it simply conveys testing and a sense of proving through punishment.

Moreover, if we are taking this text literally it just doesn't really make sense. It is obvious the flame (note that it is not plural as in "flames") is not literal but symbolic, as again an immaterial soul cannot experience physicality, and also because a wet finger tip would do absolutely nothing to quench a real flame, or pain that is inflicted from the flame. This is to mean mental anguish, not physical pain.


I've heard some people say the rich man and Lazarus story is just a parable, but it's clear that Jesus believed it.
It is a parable as a literal reading of the story does not follow.
 
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