Teen's Interaction With Transgender Woman in YMCA Locker Room Sparks Heated Debate

[ThatRobGuy]

Being irrational/unethical because you are super irritated by how your worldview is treated by those it is meant to demean and look down upon doesn't really make it better.

People who routinely compound their negative experiences by making them much worse and retreating into hatred and unethical behavior ARE examples of what I would call "bad people".

And you can tell who the bad people are by how they act. To your point though, the "acting out" is usually well on the road, so it is a troubling sign when people do.

With regards to modern progressivism and how it treats certain ideologies associated with conservatism, the inverse relationship is also true, though.

A lot of the rhetoric associated with it is aimed at demeaning and looking down at certain conservative values (and even lumping them in with unrelated conservative values when convenient).

Though I lean more to the liberal side on a number of issues, because not all my views are "modern progressive orthodoxy", I've had a few of those accusations sent my way. "You're upholding the patriarchy" "Implicit bias, etc..." been called a "Trumper" (even though I didn't vote for him)

I have my doubts that the people going down these roads are virtuous people that are simply misunderstood, frustrated and "not taken seriously".

Hate is something you have to want. It is something that people invite into their hearts and embrace.

I don't think a lot of it is rooted in actual "hate"....and I'm not necessarily suggesting that all of the were virtuous. There are certainly scumbags out there.

Perhaps a better way of framing it:

How do people behave when they are (or feeling that they are) denied capital? There are different forms of capital...there's monetary capital in a market economy, there's social capital in the marketplace of ideas.

If you can understand (not condone, just understand) why a young man of a minority race may turn to a life of crime due to the societal climate they're born into and how society is treating them and referring to them and have a chip on their shoulder, then you may be able to understand why people in other groups may have the same weaknesses and fall into certain traps. (especially during the years of life when they're full of "p & v" as the expression goes.


While I'd agree with what you implied that "hate" is a learned behavior (nobody springs from the womb inherently hating anyone else for superficial differences), I'd suggest that other people who happen hate the same things they do aren't always the "teacher" in that "learning dynamic". A young black man doesn't have to have a member of the Nation of Islam as a mentor in order to become distrustful of white people or the police.


With a lot of the rhetoric that's taken place in certain pockets of the left that have been amplified, it's framed around the idea that the absolute worst thing you can be a straight, conservative, Christian, white, cisgender, male.

If you're a 19-22 year old who meets 3 or 4 of those criteria, probably a bit of a "chip on the shoulder" feeling I would guess.

National conversations about "toxic masculinity" and "all white people have implicit bias" etc... and when a person who meets that criteria says "well that doesn't describe me", they're met with rebuttals of "that's just you're privilege talking" or "see, there's that white/male fragility we were talking about"... I can see how that would cause some people to get a chip on their shoulder.

And then things like this occur:

India Willoughby: Is it discriminatory to refuse to date a trans woman?

Was it transphobic for singer Ginuwine to state that that he wouldn't date a trans woman on reality TV show Celebrity Big Brother?

www.bbc.com

"If you identify as straight, but you won't date a transgender woman, then you're transphobic"

...that's not helpful either.

I don't have any issues with someone being transgender, and I would gladly be friends with, and invite into my home, a couple that's comprised of a cisgender male and transgender woman, but because I, myself, wouldn't date a transgender woman, that somehow makes me "phobic"? That doesn't seem like it's in-line with the narrative of "people can't help what they're attracted to".

 

[Pommer]

Does it really make sense to separate restrooms based on just 2 different biologies, while ignoring other biological facts?

By your logic we should all share a bathroom regardless of biology and just mind our own business, but why don’t we do that? Hint: because it makes people uncomfortable.

What “two biologies”?
A bladder or rectum is full and needs to be emptied.
That’s it.
(Obviously this comment is only concerned about restrooms and not locker rooms)

Enjoy your evening.

 

[Chriliman]

What “two biologies”?
A bladder or rectum is full and needs to be emptied.
That’s it.
(Obviously this comment is only concerned about restrooms and not locker rooms)

Enjoy your evening.

Exactly, why not do away with male and female restrooms all together?

 

[Neogaia777]

Exactly, why not do away with male and female restrooms all together?

There can be young, to very young children in there, and they still might see something there, and you are allowed to be naked or show your nakedness or parts there, and you know someone is going to do it or try it or push it regardless there, especially if there are no specific laws or rules against it there, and then we now have a really big mess on our hands now don't we there, etc...

I'll go with what I have been suggesting in this thread thus far, etc...

People are fools not to go along with it, etc...

Almost like they just want to keep on going on arguing and fighting just for the sake of it, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Pommer]

Exactly, why not do away with male and female restrooms all together?

Sounds messy.

 

[Chriliman]

There can be young, to very young children in there, and they still might see something there, and you are allowed to be naked or show your nakedness or parts there, and you know someone is going to do it or try it or push it regardless there, especially if there are no specific laws or rules against it there, and then we now have a really big mess on our hands now don't we there, etc...

I'll go with what I have been suggesting in this thread thus far, etc...

People are fools not to go along with it, etc...

Almost like they just want to keep on going on arguing and fighting just for the sake of it, etc...

God Bless!

Multiple individual stalls with fully closing doors is the actual answer.

 

[Neogaia777]

Multiple individual stalls with fully closing doors is the actual answer.

There probably still has to be some rules or laws even in that case though, or, well, you know, "some people", etc, and there is always at least one (or more), etc...

Probably wouldn't be allowed to be or come out of those stalls with any of your parts showing, and they would probably all need working latches or locks, etc, and you're talking about public bathrooms, and maybe something like that might work in some of those cases, maybe changing rooms also, but lockerooms/gyms, like with public showers and such, might be a different story though, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[DaisyDay]

That totally depends on where you are. For example in most school and public locker rooms where there are showers or in pool changing rooms there you will encounter naked people. No they aren't walking around the room naked. They usually have a towel. As they walk from the shower to the locker. But then they get naked to change out of clothes or into clothes. In most highschools and colleges the showers are open showers where you shower together. So there are lots opportunities to see others naked. It's something to get used to. It's really no big deal if you are the same sex. But if you are not and you have the parts of the opposite sex it's NOT acceptable.

When I was in high school, I quickly learned how to change and shower without ever being naked. Maybe it's a girl thing.

 

[variant]

With regards to modern progressivism and how it treats certain ideologies associated with conservatism, the inverse relationship is also true, though.

A lot of the rhetoric associated with it is aimed at demeaning and looking down at certain conservative values (and even lumping them in with unrelated conservative values when convenient).

Though I lean more to the liberal side on a number of issues, because not all my views are "modern progressive orthodoxy", I've had a few of those accusations sent my way. "You're upholding the patriarchy" "Implicit bias, etc..." been called a "Trumper" (even though I didn't vote for him)

I'm not interested in pretending that modern liberalism is perfect, or that conservatism has nothing to offer, or that there aren't plenty of serious issues to work though, plenty of bad people or bad actors or bad ideas, but those are all case by case things.

In this case, it's pretty clear cut who is bullying who, and I certainly don't care about looking down on the conservative values that propose that we look down on certain groups of people.

I don't think we need to try to go out of our way to excuse the behavior and I don't think it comes from a good place that is misunderstood or put upon.

I don't think a lot of it is rooted in actual "hate"....and I'm not necessarily suggesting that all of the were virtuous. There are certainly scumbags out there.

You seem to have a charitable heart.

I simply I disagree with you there. From beginning to end you don't do this to people unless you have something against them. I'm quite comfortable calling it hate. From the person making up stories to target someone they were uncomfortable with, to the conservative outrage machine that wants to dig up every example they can for their perch in the culture war.

Perhaps a better way of framing it:

How do people behave when they are (or feeling that they are) denied capital? There are different forms of capital...there's monetary capital in a market economy, there's social capital in the marketplace of ideas.

What they are reacting to is a loss of "control", not "capital". They are being forced to react to a (negatively in their view) changing world, and are taking their frustrations out on the people who they view as the cause.

If you can understand (not condone, just understand) why a young man of a minority race may turn to a life of crime due to the societal climate they're born into and how society is treating them and referring to them and have a chip on their shoulder, then you may be able to understand why people in other groups may have the same weaknesses and fall into certain traps. (especially during the years of life when they're full of "p & v" as the expression goes.

While I'd agree with what you implied that "hate" is a learned behavior (nobody springs from the womb inherently hating anyone else for superficial differences), I'd suggest that other people who happen hate the same things they do aren't always the "teacher" in that "learning dynamic". A young black man doesn't have to have a member of the Nation of Islam as a mentor in order to become distrustful of white people or the police.

With a lot of the rhetoric that's taken place in certain pockets of the left that have been amplified, it's framed around the idea that the absolute worst thing you can be a straight, conservative, Christian, white, cisgender, male.

If you're a 19-22 year old who meets 3 or 4 of those criteria, probably a bit of a "chip on the shoulder" feeling I would guess.

I mean if you're really willing to compare people who go through overt racism of the past centuries to living in the US and being a white conservative Christian cisgender male I suggest a few history lessons.

I can certainly understand how people become hateful, but I certainly don't have to condone it, certainly not, for the "plight" of the modern white, conservative, Christian cisgender male.

From experience, being a modern white straight man hasn't been much of a hinderance in my life.

The people who join hate groups are hateful people. Their problem is hatred.

National conversations about "toxic masculinity" and "all white people have implicit bias" etc... and when a person who meets that criteria says "well that doesn't describe me", they're met with rebuttals of "that's just you're privilege talking" or "see, there's that white/male fragility we were talking about"... I can see how that would cause some people to get a chip on their shoulder.

Our implicit biases are pretty easy to demonstrate.

And then things like this occur:

India Willoughby: Is it discriminatory to refuse to date a trans woman?

Was it transphobic for singer Ginuwine to state that that he wouldn't date a trans woman on reality TV show Celebrity Big Brother?

www.bbc.com

"If you identify as straight, but you won't date a transgender woman, then you're transphobic"

...that's not helpful either.

I don't have any issues with someone being transgender, and I would gladly be friends with, and invite into my home, a couple that's comprised of a cisgender male and transgender woman, but because I, myself, wouldn't date a transgender woman, that somehow makes me "phobic"? That doesn't seem like it's in-line with the narrative of "people can't help what they're attracted to".

And I would agree with you on those issues. Who you date is one of the areas where you have full choice, and people don't really have a right to criticize, because you're not in my opinion capable of controlling who you are attracted to.

We've had discussions in the past though so I am quite sure you are capable of defending yourself when the left makes problematic arguments at you. If you feel for the folks who have the problem of dealing with the world on these issues, try to teach them to calmly stand up for themselves with reason and logic.

Telling you who you're supposed to want to date isn't all that differn't than preaching at gay people for their preferences IMO.

 

[rjs330]

If the person in question was anatomically a male, and was getting undressed in a female locker room where other women/girls could clearly see or be exposed to the fact that they were still anatomically male, then that person broke the law in my book, and should be cited for indecent exposure at the very least, etc...

Of course, the problem is that there aren't any clear rules on it right now, because no one seems to want to touch it with a ten foot pole right now, and that is part of the problem right now, etc...

In my opinion there also needs to be a third room (lockeroom) where people (anyone) can go for any reason if they wish or if they are not comfortable with either of the other two rooms (or lockerooms), etc, so that there can be a relatively comfortable place for everyone to go, etc..

God Bless!

I'm all for a transgender room.

 

[rjs330]

someone's presence in the locker room makes you uncomfortable, change in a private area (stall, etc). If someone's actions make you uncomfortable, get yourself to safety as quickly as possible and report it to the proper authorities (gym staff, police). Seems pretty simple to me.

Or the trans person uses the locker room of their sex until they've undergone all the surgeries.

I still don't have an answer as to why this girl thought the person was a man. I still don't know if the transperaon that came forward was actually the one the girl saw.

 

[rjs330]

I think a more likely scenario would be the formation of "volunteers" to police locker rooms and schools who would be charged to inspect every student to make sure they are using the right facilities. Just tell the kids that being striped by pawed by strangers is a small price to pay to keep them safe from perverts.

Oh good grief. This is such a ridiculous thought. No one is going to be doing that. No one wants a genitalia police.

A reasonable suggestion was made that trans people have their own space to change and shower.

 

[rjs330]

We don't usually expect to be treated fairly when some sort of special talent is required.

The current issue is dealing with people having somewhere to change clothing and shower. We certainly can't accommodate everyone if some people are going to get hysterical over sharing space with a post op transgender woman and seeing a butt.

I've seen a few man butts in my time changing clothing, I think the girl will be OK and should quit it with the histrionics.

IF the person this girl saw is the black person who claims to be the one that was there, then apparently she was mistaken. I still want to know why she thought the person was a man. Was it the voice? We don't know. But she thought it was a man. Why is this such a big deal to you? Maybe she made an honest mistake.

You guys all assumed she was lying. Maybe she was maybe she wasn't. NO ONE HAS INVESTIGATED IT. I would think someone would try to find out why she believed the person was man and if the person who says it was her was the same one she saw. Until THOSE questions are asked and answered you are all just assuming the worst.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm all for a transgender room.

They are not ever required to of course, they can still also use freely whatever room they still currently are biologically, etc, even after a change, etc, free to use whatever they now are biologically after that, etc, but like, with my post #133, in the case of a biological male who is still biologically male not being entirely comfortable having to always go into a male lockeroom when they like to wear female clothing, wear make-up, wigs, etc, and maybe take their time with it, etc, then I think a third option should be available for any and/or all or both/neither, in any and/or all or either of any cases, etc...

But if they do want to use the men's room to do all of that, then they are entirely free to, as long as that is still what they are biologically, etc, and no one else is allowed to be checking, or police them, or ever have a problem with it, etc...

You don't have to socialize with them if you don't want to, but you do have to leave them alone, etc...

They could still currently be "in transition" still, etc...

Either way, you don't have to socialize with them, but you do have to leave them alone, etc...

God Bless!

 

[rjs330]

the most common reason a child is bullied is that they are LGBT or perceived to be LGBT. Bullying rates for LGBT youth are three to five times higher depending on the school and the local community.


being LGBT isn't a mental health issue but you continuing to say so is bullying.

Of course is a mental health issue. You think your something you are not. You have any to cut off perfectly healthy and normal body parts and replace them with fake ones that don't work properly.

If any one else did that you would consider it a mental health issue.

It fits the very definition of it. Except you and transactivists don't want admit it. Cause for some reason even though it fits it doesn't just cause you don't want it to and neither do they.

 

[variant]

IF the person this girl saw is the black person who claims to be the one that was there, then apparently she was mistaken. I still want to know why she thought the person was a man. Was it the voice? We don't know. But she thought it was a man. Why is this such a big deal to you? Maybe she made an honest mistake.

She testified before the local government that she saw a man in the locker room, not how she knew. You'd have to ask her.

She is the person who made "a big deal" out of it by going to the local authorities and giving a tearful speech about how she didn't feel safe because she saw a bare butt and that the YMCA wouldn't do what she wanted.

She hadn't testified specifically that she'd seen a penis and later clarified that she had not.

You guys all assumed she was lying. Maybe she was maybe she wasn't. NO ONE HAS INVESTIGATED IT. I would think someone would try to find out why she believed the person was man and if the person who says it was her was the same one she saw. Until THOSE questions are asked and answered you are all just assuming the worst.

The transgender woman in question spoke out against her accuser and the girl in question clarified that there wasn't a penis involved but rather a "backside".

So, the facts of the matter are known. Whether the girl actually saw the transgender woman naked in any way is unknown, because the person in question says she wasn't walking around naked in the showering room but rather took a shower behind a curtain.

 

[Neogaia777]

Of course is a mental health issue. You think your something you are not. You have any to cut off perfectly healthy and normal body parts and replace them with fake ones that don't work properly.

If any one else did that you would consider it a mental health issue.

It fits the very definition of it. Except you and transactivists don't want admit it. Cause for some reason even though it fits it doesn't just cause you don't want it to and neither do they.

I don't know if we can all for sure always call it a mental health issue, etc...?

Sometimes people can be born either trending toward one or the other, etc, and sometimes it may not always be what they were born as, etc...?

But, I don't think children, or those under 18 or 21 should be ever be able to undergo gender reassignment surgeries, or take hormonal changing drugs, until they are older, or are of that age, etc, because to me, that is just wrong or sick or senseless to do that to a child, or have a child do that, for what might be an entirely premature judgement, that is way, way before their time, etc...

If they are tending or are trending toward one or the other at a young age that they were not born as, etc, then maybe let them try it out for a time without any surgeries, or drugs maybe, if the parent thinks it is right to let them try out that sort of thing, etc, because it might just be a simple curiosity, or a phase, etc, and might be something that will change or pass, etc, and if it doesn't, then when they are older you will know it, etc, and when they become an adult, or become of age, then maybe they can have or take drugs or undergo gender reassignment surgeries to change themselves maybe, but not until then, etc, because then and only then, etc, will you know it wasn't just a simple curiosity, or a phase, etc...

But saying it is always a mental disease in all or every single case(s) for sure, might not always be entirely correct sometimes, etc...?

But that might just be my opinion maybe, etc...

I know it is a sensitive issue, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't know if we can all for sure always call it a mental health issue, etc...?

Sometimes people can be born either trending toward one or the other, etc, and sometimes it may not always be what they were born as, etc...?

But, I don't think children, or those under 18 or 21 should be ever be able to undergo gender reassignment surgeries, or take hormonal changing drugs, until they are older, or are of that age, etc, because to me, that is just wrong or sick or senseless to do that to a child, or have a child do that, for what might be an entirely premature judgement, that is way, way before their time, etc...

If they are tending or are trending toward one or the other at a young age that they were not born as, etc, then maybe let them try it out for a time without any surgeries, or drugs maybe, if the parent thinks it is right to let them try out that sort of thing, etc, because it might just be a simple curiosity, or a phase, etc, and might be something that will change or pass, etc, and if it doesn't, then when they are older you will know it, etc, and when they become an adult, or become of age, then maybe they can have or take drugs or undergo gender reassignment surgeries to change themselves maybe, but not until then, etc, because then and only then, etc, will you know it wasn't just a simple curiosity, or a phase, etc...

But saying it is always a mental disease in all or every single case(s) for sure, might not always be entirely correct sometimes, etc...?

But that might just be my opinion maybe, etc...

I know it is a sensitive issue, etc...

God Bless!

@rjs330 (and others)...

I'm not here to win people over, or make more friends, or lose them, etc, I am just trying to figure out what is truly true and is really and truly and genuinely just for all in today's modern world, etc...

I told you about some of my problems and issues in another thread, and how limiting they can be, etc, and right now, I have all the social circle, or amount of friends I genuinely and truly want or need right now, and am not looking to take on any more right now, or anyone new right now, etc, as I told you how very limited I am in that area anyway, etc...

And since I don't, or can't, do a whole lot of socialization, etc, and don't, or can't, watch a whole lot of TV, or be exposed to others radios or TV's away from home, etc, I spend a great, great deal of my time just sitting around thinking, etc, and being; supposedly "lost" supposedly, in my own head and in my own thoughts, etc, and I'm cool with it, and I have been doing it for a while now out of necessity now, etc, so I've grown comfortable with it, etc, and with being alone a lot, and actually prefer it and like it a lot of the time now, etc...

My mostly isolated life has become my friend, etc... And I don't know if that's because initially, and when my problems very first started, if that was out of necessity or not, but I stopped questioning it a long, long time ago now, etc... And while it most definitely was not easy at first, I'm good with it for the most part now, etc...

Outside I can be under a lot of stress, as dealing with everything being voices, and feeling like there are spirits behind it/them, and pretty much knowing; notice I said "knowing" now, that you have a big huge spiritual target on your back due to what you do, or try to do for the rest of the people, is not easy, etc...

My headphones and my own choice of music are a very great blessing when I am out, etc, and I pretty much cannot live without them, etc, so, if I don't talk to you when I am out, and I have my headphones in, and I seem oblivious, etc, please do not take it personally, as I am always having a very great deal and amount of issues that I am always dealing with constantly when I am out, etc...

My friends that I right now have and know understand right now, as I tell them and have told them, and they know my limitations and accept me just as I am anyway, etc... I do fine most of the time one on one with people and my friends, as long as there are no other voices, etc, and they know this, etc...

Having this on here can sometimes help as well, and about that I am not going to lie, etc... I've been on here for a while now, pretty much since this all started and the entire time I have been going through all of this, etc... A lot of messages over the years, that might be over a decade now, I'm not entirely sure, etc...?

But, this has been my outlet sometimes, and has given me a place for all my thoughts and all the thinking I do, etc, and has at times made me feel productive, and useful, etc...

God is going to be taking me down a new route soon though, or another side or aspect of what He is calling me to, etc, but I will still be on here from time to time, just maybe not as much or as often as I used to be soon, etc...

And it involves my being and getting out there, and putting myself out there, so we'll see how it goes, etc...

I will try to keep you all updated on how it goes...

Anyway, thanks for listening...

And for you guys being here for me over the years...

I have grown a lot, and it has been a very great blessing, and I am very grateful...

God Bless!

 

[Larniavc]

I still don't have an answer as to why this girl thought the person was a man.

I’d take a punt on being spiteful or wanting to garner attention.

 

[Larniavc]

I think a more likely scenario would be the formation of "volunteers" to police locker rooms and schools who would be charged to inspect every student to make sure they are using the right facilities. Just tell the kids that being striped by pawed by strangers is a small price to pay to keep them safe from perverts.

This is typical wishy washy liberal thinking. What if one of these trans kids has a gun improvised explosive device primed to go off when disrobation occurs?

The volunteers need to be military or at least veterans in full gear. And they should also arm the civilian observers (so the vets don’t try to use this as a excuse to perv on the naked possibly bomb wearing kids) to keep everyone safe.