Taize

[Rhamiel]

The Modernist say the same thing. They say the "Church needs to change" or "evolve" her practises. You've no proof that one ought attend heretical sects other than appeal to emotion or "change in history."

How is the Church the change? You're implying that her practise for the last 1962 years has been deficient and somehow folks now "know" better because we're in a "different era." What was wrong a century ago, is still wrong today. If even Holy Scripture warns against too much a familiarity with heretics, then who are we to challenge this?

i did not say that they ought to, I said they were free to
i did not say that the way we do things now is better, what we did then was good for that time, now we need to do what is good for this time
we are to be salt and light to all people, so we can not be closed off away, we need to be out with them, your way only makes people not want to be Catholic
you are missrepresenting the teachings of the Church,
PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM

118. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

.
now if you want to live in the middle ages, that is ok, the Church was here before the Middle Ages and it outlasted the Middle Ages

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

do you have anything after vatican 2 that says that we can not attend protestant services?
I do not mean take communion, I know that is not allowed, but to attend and worship

Communicatio in sacris -- sharing in sacred things -- is a violation of both natural and divine positive law. It is not a human law and therefore cannot be abjured.

Passive attendance is not a sin, but you must not regard the heretical or non-Christian place of worship as a holy place. I was watching the Discovery Channel on lunch Saturday and they mentioned that in this village in Polynesia, they still worship the ancient shark-god. If I was an ethnographer or anthopologist or even just a curious tourist, it would not be illicit for me to watch their rites -- this is passive participation. If I were to join with them in praying to the shark god or take an active role in their ceremonies, this would be active participation and clearly sinful -- we cannot worship pagan gods, that is the first commandment.

Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

Behold Israel according to the flesh: are not they, that eat of the sacrifices, partakers of the altar? What then? Do I say, that what is offered in sacrifice to idols, is any thing? Or, that the idol is any thing? But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils. You cannot drink the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of devils: you cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

So clearly, one should not be praying to Shiva, Buddha (even though not technically a god), Zeus, Odin, Pele, etc. But we also cannot pray with Jews, Muslims, or even non-Catholic Christians.

A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

St. Paul does not say, "Go to his place of worship and join with him." or "Let him be true to his own church." but "admonish" and "avoid" so as to not get pulled down with him in his sin and join him in being condemned.

There is 'communicatio in sacris' (sharing in sacraments) when anyone takes part in the liturgical worship or in the sacraments of another church or ecclesiastical community.

It is not just eating their bread and drinking their grape juice which puts you in communion with heretics but participation in their worship and prayer. Superstition is defined as worship of a false god or false worship of the True God. So even though Protestants direct their prayers and songs to Jesus and the Blessed Trinity, it is superstition and not true worship because true worship of God must be sacrificial (Summa, II-II, Q 85, A 1,4). When Protestants do not know what they are doing is wrong and that their beliefs are false and they have no reasonable way of knowing that this is so, they are in invincible ignorance and not held accountable for their sin. Quite distinctly is a person who leaves the Catholic Church for Protestantism or one who maintains Communion with the Catholic Church but actively participates in non-Catholic worship -- they may be ignorant that this is sinful, but they are culpable for their ignorance.

This applies not only to formal heretics, such as Protestants, or schismatics, such as the Eastern Orthodox but also to those formally within the Catholic Church. If you are aware that your priest teaches heresy, you cannot attend Mass there. This is made even more dangerous in the New Roman Rite:

[quote="Sacrosanctum Concilium", 52]By means of the homily the mysteries of the faith and the guiding principles of the Christian life are expounded from the sacred text, during the course of the liturgical year; the homily, therefore, is to be highly esteemed as part of the liturgy itself; in fact, at those Masses which are celebrated with the assistance of the people on Sundays and feasts of obligation, it should not be omitted except for a serious reason.[/quote]

And liturgically, this is implemented and you can tell because the priest does not remove any vestment. In the Old Rite, he removes his maniple which means that the homily is not part of the liturgy. Because of the humanistic, exegetical focus of the New Mass and Lectionary, the homily is "highly esteemed as part of the liturgy itself" and thus carries with it a distinct danger -- if the priest preaches heresy in his homily, the whole liturgy is corrupted. You must not only avoid formal heresies and schisms but also heretical (pseudo-)Catholic priests. For example, if a priest says he supports women's ordination or gives a heretical definition of the Eucharist, you must bring up your concern with him, if he is obstinate, go to the bishop and find another parish. You are not only not obligated to hear Mass if there is not an orthodox parish within reasonable distance, you cannot attend a heretical or schismatic one.

Anyone who teaches that heresy doesn't matter, that a Catholic can in good conscience and without grave sin join in the prayers of heretics -- whether he be a priest, bishop, or the pope himself (or a Council of bishops) is wrong. The Church has no authority to "call evil good". So it does not matter what is said at or after Vatican II and false teachings which have been promulgated by some people and scandal which has been caused by the actions of the popes (yes, including our beloved Holy Father Pope Benedict), such as the religious indifferentism displayed at the infamous Assisi meeting in 1986.

The situation is a little different with the Orthodox, since they are primarily a schism and are a proper Church in the sense that they have retained valid apostolic succession and valid Sacraments. It is allowable for a Catholic to receive the Sacraments from an Orthodox priest or vice versa in danger of death (though the Orthodox always forbid non-Orthodox from receiving the Sacraments, thus these things happen rarely) as long as certain criteria are fulfilled. Also, in danger of death, all priests have extraordinary faculties to absolve (and a strict obligation to do so). Say I got in a bad car accident in Spokane, WA and a CMRI priest came to my side, he would have the jurisdiction (Ecclesia supplet) to hear my confession even though he would normally have no power to absolve my sins. Indeed if a Protestant minister came to my side wearing a Roman collar (as some Anglican and Lutherans do) and I thought he was a Catholic priest, Ecclesia supplet would still apply regardless of his lay status.

It is illicit, however to actively participate in non-Catholic worship. Say your have a Presbyterian brother and you are invited to the funeral, you can go as long as certain requirements are fulfilled (e.g. little danger of scandal) but you cannot be a pallbearer as that would be active participation in a heretical rite. But to just go to a Protestant service on a normal Sunday (even if you fulfill your Mass obligation, such as by going to the Saturday vigil Mass) and worship in common with them is a mortal sin against the faith regardless of whether it seems to be more tolerated now.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not.

 

[Bosco_Guy]

Chanting the psalms and meditating on Christ is something monks do in cloister daily...Why in the world would singing the psalms be a mortal sin? Come on seriously its not like their making fake Eucharist or anything.

Give me a break.

 

[Rhamiel]

this is so differant from everything I had heard...
I feel confused
please do not take offense to this, I respect you greatly and I am in awe at your zeal for Christ and His Church

but sometimes traditionalists seem too antagonistic to denominations and even out of line of what the Catholic Church teaches, like I quoted an offical document from the Church about encouraging worship with other christians...
I feel confused

 

[Anhelyna]

Rhamiel - I'm in total agreement with you here .

I find it very very sad how rigid some traditionalists are - unless they actually want to do something

 

[Maggie893]

I think that some clarification needs to be made in what is "non-Catholic" worship is and what it is not. I personally do not attend Non-Catholic worship services.

However, all of the Taize that I have participated in has been led by a Catholic, majority of participants are Catholic, majority of the music is sacramentally based. The events are not touted as "worship services" for any denomination or Catholic. All have been held in Catholic environments. Many have been during adoration. Priests have used Taize as music during liturgical services but with no other involvement beyond just music. I've never seen Taize used in Protestant liturgical services.

If folks are suggesting that Taize is anything more than prayer, then I think that they need more time and research in the movement.

As for The Churches stance on prayer with non-Catholics, I refer you to Ut Unum Sint:

The primacy of prayer
21. "This change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and can rightly be called 'spiritual ecumenism' ".42
We proceed along the road leading to the conversion of hearts guided by love which is directed to God and, at the same time, to all our brothers and sisters, including those not in full communion with us. Love gives rise to the desire for unity, even in those who have never been aware of the need for it. Love builds communion between individuals and between Communities. If we love one another, we strive to deepen our communion and make it perfect. Love is given to God as the perfect source of communion—the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit—that we may draw from that source the strength to build communion between individuals and Communities, or to re-establish it between Christians still divided. Love is the great undercurrent which gives life and adds vigour to the movement towards unity.
This love finds its most complete expression in common prayer. When brothers and sisters who are not in perfect communion with one another come together to pray, the Second Vatican Council defines their prayer as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement. This prayer is "a very effective means of petitioning for the grace of unity", "a genuine expression of the ties which even now bind Catholics to their separated brethren".43 Even when prayer is not specifically offered for Christian unity, but for other intentions such as peace, it actually becomes an expression and confirmation of unity. The common prayer of Christians is an invitation to Christ himself to visit the community of those who call upon him: "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Mt 18:20).
22. When Christians pray together, the goal of unity seems closer. The long history of Christians marked by many divisions seems to converge once more because it tends towards that Source of its unity which is Jesus Christ. He "is the same yesterday, today and forever!" (Heb 13:8). In the fellowship of prayer Christ is truly present; he prays "in us", "with us" and "for us". It is he who leads our prayer in the Spirit-Consoler whom he promised and then bestowed on his Church in the Upper Room in Jerusalem, when he established her in her original unity.
Along the ecumenical path to unity, pride of place certainly belongs to common prayer, the prayerful union of those who gather together around Christ himself. If Christians, despite their divisions, can grow ever more united in common prayer around Christ, they will grow in the awareness of how little divides them in comparison to what unites them. If they meet more often and more regularly before Christ in prayer, they will be able to gain the courage to face all the painful human reality of their divisions, and they will find themselves together once more in that community of the Church which Christ constantly builds up in the Holy Spirit, in spite of all weaknesses and human limitations.
23. Finally, fellowship in prayer leads people to look at the Church and Christianity in a new way. It must not be forgotten in fact that the Lord prayed to the Father that his disciples might be one, so that their unity might bear witness to his mission and the world would believe that the Father had sent him (cf. Jn 17:21). It can be said that the ecumenical movement in a certain sense was born out of the negative experience of each one of those who, in proclaiming the one Gospel, appealed to his own Church or Ecclesial Community. This was a contradiction which could not escape those who listened to the message of salvation and found in this fact an obstacle to acceptance of the Gospel. Regrettably, this grave obstacle has not been overcome. It is true that we are not yet in full communion. And yet, despite our divisions, we are on the way towards full unity, that unity which marked the Apostolic Church at its birth and which we sincerely seek. Our common prayer, inspired by faith, is proof of this. In that prayer, we gather together in the name of Christ who is One. He is our unity.
"Ecumenical" prayer is at the service of the Christian mission and its credibility. It must thus be especially present in the life of the Church and in every activity aimed at fostering Christian unity. It is as if we constantly need to go back and meet in the Upper Room of Holy Thursday, even though our presence together in that place will not be perfect until the obstacles to full ecclesial communion are overcome and all Christians can gather together in the common celebration of the Eucharist.44

It's important to remember that we can't be more Catholic than the Church herself.

 

[Rhamiel]

<staff edit>
my dear sister in Christ
the opposite could also be said, like you were catholic and worshiped with non-catholics a lot and now you are no longer Catholic
we could say that it is because you were upset by overly judgmental and rigid and unloving Catholics (and there are many like that)
but they could just come back and say that your views were warped by not treating heresy like a serious matter

I hope I did not offend you, I do not presume to judge your motivations, I am just pointing out how others might see it

 

[MoNiCa4316]

wow people are really saying different things.. can someone please provide the authentic Catholic teaching, hopefully with references? is the 1917 Canon still in effect? Canons aren't infallible dogmas, I think they can change over time, as long as they're a matter of (small 't') tradition.. (is this true? - after all, several early Church canons have been changed my subsequent councils.. or are no longer practiced, like the 'no kneeling on Sunday' rule)

I go to Mass every Sunday and I don't regularly attend non Catholic services. A while ago I visited the Orthodox church with my family but I didn't receive Communion (anyways, it was vespers, not DL). I wouldn't receive Communion anywhere but a Catholic church. However, I did pray together with them, and lit a couple candles... was that a sin? I also crossed myself the Eastern way, but I think that's alright because I'm technically Eastern Catholic anyway, I just practice as a Latin (with permission from my Bishop ). I know that Myrna Nazzour, who receives (approved) messages from Christ and Our Lady (Soufanieh) - visits EO churches too, but maybe that's because her husband is Orthodox and her messages are all about the unification of these two churches. She's a practicing Catholic though, in good standing with the Church, and her messages are approved and have the nihil obstat and imprimatur.

I don't go to Protestant churches, but I was thinking of visiting my old non denom church just to observe.. would it be a sin if I visited just once, and not participated in any prayers or worship, - just observed to how things are there now? (it's been 2 years ) would this count as passive or active worship?

I think that praying together with non Catholics outside of a service (for example, praying with Protestant friend for certain intentions) is not sinful. I also don't think that singing together with Protestants at a Christian concert isn't sinful, cause it's not a service, just a music concert. Receiving Communion in other churches is, unless there's a danger of death and it's Orthodox Communion, as Pilgrim said.

what do you think?

I know this seems very extreme to some people but the Church has always taken this seriously.. even as early as the 300s..

 

[kisstheson]

my dear sister in Christ
the opposite could also be said, like you were catholic and worshiped with non-catholics a lot and now you are no longer Catholic
we could say that it is because you were upset by overly judgmental and rigid and unloving Catholics (and there are many like that)
but they could just come back and say that your views were warped by not treating heresy like a serious matter

I hope I did not offend you, I do not presume to judge your motivations, I am just pointing out how others might see it

No you are sweetheart heart Rhamiel. I appreciate your concern. I believe in the Nicene Creed. I'll see ya in Heaven! Jesus is God and Lord!

 

[Rhamiel]

dear monica
i posted this
please read it
PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM
here is a quote
118. In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach

but, i would recomend, that since you have had some problems with doubt, now might not be the best time to visit other Churches (even proper Churches like the EO) because you do not need more confusion and contradicting messages

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I have yet to see the "communicatio in sacris" refuted properly; I have seen appeals based upon emotionalism. I or Pilgrim, may have offended some persons' sensibilities. However, the very real danger of pseudo-Ecumenism is quite apparent. Irenicism is not true ecumenism. This Irenicism that has been promoted has not any precedent in church history prior to the Second Vatican Council. Souls are at stake. Wishy-washy, "feel-good" ecumenism cannot abide for long in the Holy Catholic Church of God.


Invite folks to a Western Catholic Mass or Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy and pray for them. Be a witness of Christ. Just Don't water down the faith with false ecumenism. That we some how need to fabricate artificial religious services for the sake of placating some one's sensibilities. It is best for one to invite one's friends and acquittance to Holy Mass and to show the Gospel by charity.

Pray for God's grace, mercy, and charity.

[Nota Bene: In Church history, the church has never advocated a participation in the religious ceremonies of Gnostics, Arians, Sabellians, etc. [in the pre-Vatican II era: that is to say, for the last 1,962 years of the Holy Catholic Church's existence. This is somewhat telling. If this practise were thus effective: why is this only being promoted, now? It would seem that this new "ecumenism" of the last fifty or so years a novelty of the Neo-Modernists; and an Irenicism. It has born no significant fruit. [And if my memory serves me correctly,] Even Pope Benedict has said that true Ecumenism cannot be had with Protestants, insofar as true Ecumenism would promote unity between those possesses a common doctrine; a situation that Does not exist between Protestantism and Catholicism. Conversion and dialogue with the end-goal of conversion is the only viable option. There can be absolutely no doctrinal synthesis between Catholicism and Protestantism. orthodox truth and the errors of heterodoxy cannot be put together; they are as oil and water.]

 

[Rhamiel]

Matthaeus
did you read this?
PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Chanting the psalms and meditating on Christ is something monks do in cloister daily...Why in the world would singing the psalms be a mortal sin? Come on seriously its not like their making fake Eucharist or anything.

Give me a break.

Nothing's wrong with the Psalms, of course. Praying the Office is very commendable and I do so (unfortunately rather irregularly) from the 1963 Benedictine Breviary.

But it is different if you are joining with schismatics or heretics in doing so. If you go to say, a Lutheran Vespers, that is much different than a Lutheran coming to a Catholic Vespers.

It is not only illicit to join with heretics in their prayers but also with schismatics, even if it is a Catholic Rite. Therefore it is not licit to go to an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy or to a sedevacantist Mass. It has not only to do with the content of the prayers, which may be orthodox, but joining in communion with those who are not of the Church.

Qui quoquo modo haeresis propagationem sponte et scienter iuvat, aut qui communicat in divinis cum haereticis contra praescriptum can. 1258, suspectus de haeresi est.
---
Whoever helps propagate heresy voluntarily and knowingly or who shares in sacred things with heretics contrary to Canon 1258 is suspect of heresy.

Haud licitum est fidelibus quovis modo active assistere seu partem habere in sacris acatholicorum.
---
It is not licit for the faithful to actively assist or take part in non-Catholic rites.

Excommunicatus quilibet caret iure assistendi divinis officiis, non tamen praedicationi verbi Dei.
---
Whoever attends an illicit Divine Office or preaching of the Word of God is excommunicated.

It does not matter whether or not there is positive heresy in what is being prayed or preached, but rather that it is being prayed or preached by a heretic (or schismatic*). Active participation in the rites of non-Christians, schismatics or heretics is thoroughly illicit and is a sin against faith and charity. It is also very likely to cause scandal if people know that you are a Catholic because it shows that you believe Protestantism to be acceptable rather than an attack on Christ and His Church.

A salutary act must have a good end but also a proper mode. It is a good thing to worship God, but it is not proper to worship God in the services of heretics or schismatics. Therefore it is not a good act but rather it is corrupted and a sin.

Why would anyone go into a heretical temple and pray with them? Is something lacking in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that might rather be found among the heretics? God forbid! Do you pray not to please God but rather for worldly reasons, such as human friendship and respect, that you might abandon orthodoxy for heresy in order to please men? God forbid!

"I will not pray with you, nor shall you pray with me; neither will I say 'Amen' to your prayers, nor shall you to mine" ~ St. Margaret Clitherow, as Anglican ministers approached her before she was crushed to death (on Good Friday) for the crime of harboring Catholic priests and allowing them to say Mass in her home.

---
* "Nevertheless there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church." ~ St. Jerome, Commentary on Titus 3:10-11 (I quoted the passage above -- "A man that is a heretic...")

 

[Maggie893]

And again I say: Ut Unum Sint

And Unitatis Redintegratio

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

It is a recognized custom for Catholics to have frequent recourse to that prayer for the unity of the Church which the Saviour Himself on the eve of His death so fervently appealed to His Father: "That they may all be one".(32)
In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers "for unity," and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. Such prayers in common are certainly an effective means of obtaining the grace of unity, and they are a true expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to their separated brethren. "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them".(33)
Yet worship in common (communicatio in sacris) is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity. There are two main principles governing the practice of such common worship: first, the bearing witness to the unity of the Church, and second, the sharing in the means of grace. Witness to the unity of the Church very generally forbids common worship to Christians, but the grace to be had from it sometimes commends this practice. The course to be adopted, with due regard to all the circumstances of time, place, and persons, is to be decided by local episcopal authority, unless otherwise provided for by the Bishops' Conference according to its statutes, or by the Holy See.

I think this clearly shows that there is a distinct difference between praying with non-Catholics and "worshiping" with non-Catholics.

I will concede however that there are many that are spiritually immature and should not venture into areas that could become a stumbling block. But for those who are stable in their faith and growing in love of God and others, there is opportunity to pray with non-Catholics and Taize is one of those opportunities even though it is often all Catholic.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Originally Posted by 1917 CIC #2259.1

Excommunicatus quilibet caret iure assistendi divinis officiis, non tamen praedicationi verbi Dei.
---
Whoever attends an illicit Divine Office or preaching of the Word of God is excommunicated.
​

does this mean I'm excommunicated because I went to an Eastern Orthodox service (with my family) and 'actively participated' there (through prayers, not receiving the Sacraments)
?

I just want to know the truth... hmm

 

[Anhelyna]

NO - it most certainly does not .

I am encouraged by my SF to attend DL in an Orthodox Church if I cannot attend my own.



and before anyone starts asking awkward questions I do not approach the Chalice

 

[MoNiCa4316]

ok that's good to know

I'm just confused by the 1917 canon....

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

this is so differant from everything I had heard...

It depends on who you listen to, whether you listen to the Scripture, the Church Fathers and what has been taught for 1900 years or what has been taught by some individuals in the last 50 years contrary to Tradition. Christ and St. Paul constantly warned us about heretics, the Church Fathers constantly warn us about heretics, the Church has constantly warned us about heretics. Just as there were heresies who were closer to the orthodox Catholic faith (such as Donatists) and those who were further away (such as the various Gnostic heresies), there are currently heresies who are closer to the orthodox Catholic faith (such as Anglo-Catholics) and those who are further away (such as Mormons). It does not matter whether it is the year 2010 or 1210, orthodoxy remains the same and heresy remains the same assault on the faith as it has always been.

Right now there are many in the Church who teach things contrary to the Catholic faith, that is why it is important to rely on the things I mentioned in another thread -- the Old Roman Rite, the Roman Catechism, and the Church Fathers. These things have stood the test of time as to what is truly orthodox. Always be critical of what you hear, even when it comes from the mouth of a priest or bishop.

205. How does a Catholic sin against faith?

A Catholic sins against faith by apostasy, heresy, indifferentism, and by taking part in non-Catholic worship.

I feel confused

So does the modern Catholic Church. That is why it is so very important to be rooted in orthodox teachings of the faith, to know the faith. Throughout much of history, major heresies have taken hold of large portions of the Church -- Gnosticism, Arianism, Lutheranism, Jansenism and now Modernism. The Truth will always prevail but the conflict can lead to much confusion among the faithful, especially when their priests or bishops have succumbed to the lies. As benedictaoo's signature says, "Now millions of Americans are totally confused about what it means to be Catholic."

please do not take offense to this, I respect you greatly and I am in awe at your zeal for Christ and His Church

but sometimes traditionalists seem too antagonistic to denominations and even out of line of what the Catholic Church teaches, like I quoted an offical document from the Church about encouraging worship with other christians...
I feel confused

Ordinary teaching authority is not infallible nor can it be followed if it flatly contradicts the natural or Divine positive law, defined dogma or the historical teaching of the Church. We must look to the whole of Church teaching, not just what is most recent -- the Church is timeless, not timely.

Common sense would tell you that if you actively participate in another religion's rites, you are professing that religion. To use the example above, if I prayed to the shark-god, I would be professing faith in the shark-god in common with the villagers. If I offered flowers at a shrine to Shiva, I would be professing faith in Shiva in common with the Hindus. If I pray salat, I am professing faith in Mohammed's god in common with the Muslims. If I pray at a Lutheran altar, I am professing faith in Luther's god in common with the Lutherans.

Some would object that Mohammed's "Allah" is the same as the Christian God or certainly, I am sure that many would protest my phrasing of "Luther's god". After all, didn't Luther believe in Christ? Here is what the Angelic Doctor has to say:

Every sin consists formally in aversion from God, as stated above (I-II, 71, 6; I-II, 73, 3). Hence the more a sin severs man from God, the graver it is. Now man is more than ever separated from God by unbelief, because he has not even true knowledge of God: and by false knowledge of God, man does not approach Him, but is severed from Him.

Nor is it possible for one who has a false opinion of God, to know Him in any way at all, because the object of his opinion is not God.

Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith.

[W]ithout faith it is impossible to please God.

Heretics have personal opinions about religion but they do not have faith. Since heretics do not have faith, they do not please God with their religious rites but offend Him with their false worship. Why would anyone suggest that it is acceptable for a Catholic to join in the sinful rites of heretics?

In the constitution of the Church there is no room for private judgment sorting essentials from non-essentials: any such selection disturbs the unity, and challenges the Divine authority, of the Church; it strikes at the very source of faith. The guilt of heresy is measured not so much by its subject-matter as by its formal principle, which is the same in all heresies: revolt against a Divinely constituted authority.

Saints were slaughtered by the hundreds in the Roman Colosseum for refusing to offer a single grain of incense to the pagan gods. Yet some now say it is acceptable to worship pagan gods* or participate in heretical worship under the idea that "all religions are just different paths up the mountain", this is false and the blood of many thousands of martyrs proves how false it is.

Let no man deceive you with vain words. For because of these things cometh the anger of God upon the children of unbelief. Be ye not therefore partakers with them. For you were heretofore darkness, but now light in the Lord. Walk then as children of the light. For the fruit of the light is in all goodness, and justice, and truth; Proving what is well pleasing to God: And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them

Sts. Perpetua and Felicitas, pray for us!


---
* See this blasphemous defense in the often heterodox Jesuit magazine "America".

 

[Rhamiel]

Saints were slaughtered by the hundreds in the Roman Colosseum for refusing to offer a single grain of incense to the pagan gods

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PAGANS
we are talking about Protestants and Eastern Orthodox
uhg
you do not listen to the Bishops, you press your own ideas about orthodoxy above what the Bishops and the Pope says
in the past Catholics were not allowed to worship along side the Protestants, and that was totaly legit, we are to listen to the Pope and the Bishops, when it was something that would get you excommunited those people were excomunicated, now it is not

 

[scraparcs]

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PAGANS
we are talking about Protestants and Eastern Orthodox
uhg
you do not listen to the Bishops, you press your own ideas about orthodoxy above what the Bishops and the Pope says
in the past Catholics were not allowed to worship along side the Protestants, and that was totaly legit, we are to listen to the Pope and the Bishops, when it was something that would get you excommunited those people were excomunicated, now it is not

Does this mean the Church changes? I have to wonder, how can it be bad to join in w/ other Christians before but now it's ok?

(Sorry, I get confused about the Church pretty easily.)