Ta-Nehisi Coates Assails Mitch McConnell at Raucous Reparations Hearing

[iluvatar5150]

Is the result of these programs a systemic racism that provides wealth building opportunities for some races and denies those opportunities to others?

The programs I'm imagining? No.

For the record, the bill is entitled "Commission to Study and Develop Reparation Proposals...". There are no actual programs yet.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The programs I'm imagining? No.

For the record, the bill is entitled "Commission to Study and Develop Reparation Proposals...". There are no actual programs yet.

I get that...I was pointing out why we never get past "let's talk about it".

But feel free to explain what kind of programs you're imagining.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I get that...I was pointing out why we never get past "let's talk about it".

But feel free to explain what kind of programs you're imagining.

I'm thinking programs targeted at poverty but directed towards areas that tend to have higher numbers of black residents.

If I use Baltimore as an example, you could ramp up the demolition and/or rehabbing of vacant & dilapidated housing; build more affordable housing; better maintain all the vacant lots; clean the streets more often; rehab the school buildings; fix the streets and all the old, busted infrastructure; invest in expanded drug rehab & various other public & mental health services; hire more cops and other city workers; expand legal aid services; build out municipal broadband (so we're not all beholden to Comcast); expand public transportation...

All of these things help address the effects of a century+ of racial disinvestment without excluding any race from their benefits.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm thinking programs targeted at poverty but directed towards areas that tend to have higher numbers of black residents.

If I use Baltimore as an example, you could ramp up the demolition and/or rehabbing of vacant & dilapidated housing; build more affordable housing; better maintain all the vacant lots; clean the streets more often; rehab the school buildings; fix the streets and all the old, busted infrastructure; invest in expanded drug rehab & various other public & mental health services; hire more cops and other city workers; expand legal aid services; build out municipal broadband (so we're not all beholden to Comcast); expand public transportation...

All of these things help address the effects of a century+ of racial disinvestment without excluding any race from their benefits.

I've heard this kind of proposal and frankly ,it comes off as rather dead on arrival.

Let's say that what you're talking about is a sort of welfare type program that a larger percentage of black people will be able to take advantage of (relative to their population) than white people.

We already have that. Most welfare programs are disproportionately used by non-whites....to the tune of billions of dollars a year. Nobody considers that reparations....and it's been happening for decades.

Furthermore, when would you consider the reparations "over"? 5 years? 10? I get the feeling that you're going to say "when they have the desired effect"...but you need to consider the problem of "what if they never do"? Are you going to push for another round of "reparations"? If so....then we aren't talking about reparations. If not, what have you really achieved?

I think that you need to realize the problem here is mostly on the left. There's a large portion of those pushing for reparations that do mean "systemic racism against whites in favor of blacks"...and if you don't mean that, then you and the rest of those on the left need to start pushing back against those people.

If you want an example here's one....and there's plenty more...

To every white person who believes we don’t deserve reparations

I don't see how anyone can read that stuff and not conclude that what people are asking for is massive race-based wealth redistribution. They aren't asking for a new welfare program that any race can apply for.

 

[rjs330]

Is it possible to have one conversation without these asinine games? They're not clever. They're not informative or well-informed. They're obnoxious. And most-importantly, they're just flat-out wrong.

No, it wasn't just southern Democrats who had Jim Crow laws. As I pointed out, redlining and other racist housing policies existed across the country, some of which were implemented at the federal level. Sundown towns existed across the country. Segregated schools and anti-miscegenation laws existed in the north. The US military wasn't officially desegregated until 1948.

All of you guys flogging this dead horse do nothing but obfuscate the issue and give the impression that you're sandbagging for racists. Is that really the image you want to portray?

No I'm trying to point out how dumb it is to get everyone to pay for things that were primarily perpetrated by a certain group of people. Mostly southern Democrats in this case. And I believe it was a Democrat who segregated the military.

So let's punish everyone for stuff that was perpetrated by mostly a certain group. Let's give reparations to those who were never part of the slavery and segregation.

 

[rjs330]

I hope one day people will stop trying to use the "Dems are the real racists!" argument seriously. Do you not realize that it goes nowhere?

I never said they are. Neither are the Republicans. I thought we were talking about what happened before civil rights and when slavery was occurring. If we are then the Democrats were the real racists then. They should be the ones to pay

 

[rjs330]

I'm thinking programs targeted at poverty but directed towards areas that tend to have higher numbers of black residents.

If I use Baltimore as an example, you could ramp up the demolition and/or rehabbing of vacant & dilapidated housing; build more affordable housing; better maintain all the vacant lots; clean the streets more often; rehab the school buildings; fix the streets and all the old, busted infrastructure; invest in expanded drug rehab & various other public & mental health services; hire more cops and other city workers; expand legal aid services; build out municipal broadband (so we're not all beholden to Comcast); expand public transportation...

All of these things help address the effects of a century+ of racial disinvestment without excluding any race from their benefits.

Then why doesn't Baltimore do that? Or at least Maryland as a state? If people in Maryland really want that done they can do it. I'm guessing Maryland has enough rich people they can tax to help with that. I mean why does a city allow all this delapidation and not hire more people. For crying out loud, hire the people in those communities to do the work. That way they kill two birds with one stone. The palace gets fixed up and the minorities there get some decent paying jobs.

 

[rjs330]

I am ALL FOR communities taking a proactive approach to cleaning up and revitalizing their communities. If the governments there really cared they would do it. These days folks are so gung ho about taxing the rich, those states could pass laws taxing the wealth in those areas and that money could go to building up those areas.

 

[Radagast]

Ta-Nehisi Coates specified government policies and the direct victims of those racist polices

If that was really true, victims of "racist polices" could take legal action under existing laws.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm thinking programs targeted at poverty but directed towards areas that tend to have higher numbers of black residents.

If I use Baltimore as an example, you could ramp up the demolition and/or rehabbing of vacant & dilapidated housing; build more affordable housing; better maintain all the vacant lots; clean the streets more often; rehab the school buildings; fix the streets and all the old, busted infrastructure; invest in expanded drug rehab & various other public & mental health services; hire more cops and other city workers; expand legal aid services; build out municipal broadband (so we're not all beholden to Comcast); expand public transportation...

All of these things help address the effects of a century+ of racial disinvestment without excluding any race from their benefits.

Here's another example....

Bernie Sanders Asks the Right Question on Reparations: What Does It Mean?

From the article....

"WHAT @KamalaHarris isproposing is a CLASS SPECIFIC piece of legislation,” tweeted Yvette Carnell, founder of the #ADOS movement, which advocates for the interests of American descendants of slavery. “Reparations for #ADOS is a RACE SPECIFIC piece of legislation. America inflicted race specific harm that requires race specific redress. Stop trying to lie to us. We’re not stupid"

If you're not familiar with ADOS, it's a group called "African descendants of slavery" or some such thing.

Now, to be clear....yes, they do want systemic race based wealth redistribution....from white to black. If you are against that...and it sounds like you are...maybe it would be better to tell all people shouting for reparations that in reality, you're against the idea. You don't mean what they mean...and you don't think it's a good idea to start instituting racist policies.

You might get called a racist more often...but that won't matter because it's not really true.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm thinking programs targeted at poverty but directed towards areas that tend to have higher numbers of black residents.

If I use Baltimore as an example, you could ramp up the demolition and/or rehabbing of vacant & dilapidated housing; build more affordable housing; better maintain all the vacant lots; clean the streets more often; rehab the school buildings; fix the streets and all the old, busted infrastructure; invest in expanded drug rehab & various other public & mental health services; hire more cops and other city workers; expand legal aid services; build out municipal broadband (so we're not all beholden to Comcast); expand public transportation...

All of these things help address the effects of a century+ of racial disinvestment without excluding any race from their benefits.

Here's another example...they're all over the place...

2020 Democratic hopefuls embrace new meaning of reparations

"Universal programs are not specific to the injustices that have been inflicted on African-Americans,” said Duke University economist William Darity, a veteran advocate of reparations."

And...

"Montague Simmons of the Movement for Black Lives, which has pushed for reparations, said the debate is “not just cash payments.”

But “unless we’re talking about something that has to be systemic and transfers power to the community, it’s not likely going to be what we would consider reparations,” he said."

Systemic....he literally used the word systemic. Does it trouble you at all to think of so many people on the left side of this issue are pushing for systemic racism??

Arguably, these are the same people who claimed to be against adding a question about citizenship to the census because it's systemic racism. Yet, here they are...all in favor of systemic racism when it benefits them.

 

[iluvatar5150]

But “unless we’re talking about something that has to be systemic and transfers power to the community, it’s not likely going to be what we would consider reparations,” he said."

Systemic....he literally used the word systemic. Does it trouble you at all to think of so many people on the left side of this issue are pushing for systemic racism??

Arguably, these are the same people who claimed to be against adding a question about citizenship to the census because it's systemic racism. Yet, here they are...all in favor of systemic racism when it benefits them.

*sigh* I knew I shouldn't have jumped into this.

"Systemic" does not automatically mean "systemic racism". Maybe go read up on some of their ideas for what reparations should consist of before jumping to conclusions like that.

 

[Ana the Ist]

*sigh* I knew I shouldn't have jumped into this.

"Systemic" does not automatically mean "systemic racism". Maybe go read up on some of their ideas for what reparations should consist of before jumping to conclusions like that.

I did....here's the description of "reparations" from Montague Simmons' group "The Movement for Black Lives".

Reparations - The Movement for Black Lives

The very first request is for systemic racism...

"Reparations for the systemic denial of access to high quality educational opportunities in the form of full and free access for all Black people (including undocumented and currently and formerly incarcerated people) to lifetime education including: free access and open admissions to public community colleges and universities, technical education (technology, trade and agricultural), educational support programs, retroactive forgiveness of student loans, and support for lifetime learning programs."

I don't know if he authored this himself....but it's rather clear he wants to impose racist policies that benefit blacks and no one else. That's the idea of reparations he's endorsing.

Spare me your sighs. Why are you defending racists pushing for institutional racism?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I agree. I've said elsewhere that, if freed blacks had been allowed to integrate back into society, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Given the general state of poverty throughout the white community in the 1860's, the racial wealth gap that existed would have been relatively small and blacks probably would've been able to close the bulk of it within a few generations. But we didn't; we oppressed blacks for another 100+ years, during which time we made a lot of white people a lot wealthier (i.e. creating the middle class post WW2) and also made it harder to become wealthier (by tying personal wealth to real estate & requiring more and more education for good-paying jobs).

This just strikes me as extraordinarily naive. Europeans and Africans haven't been on equal economic footing....arguably, since the Punic Wars. Even then we're talking about North African Mediterranean societies....not sub-Saharan Africa.

You're claiming that the relative poverty of southern whites and freed slaves put them on equal economic footing following the Civil War? Why?

We're talking about the difference between a large group of people have wealth (even if a significant number are poor) and a group of people who have....nothing. Worse, I would have to believe that for the most part, entire concepts like "how an economy works" or "how to create wealth" or "a fair value of your labor" were kept from them largely.

The racial wealth gap would have been relatively small??? Seriously?

I don't think you understand how enormous it was by the time the trans-Atlantic slave trade began. The slavers who traded muskets and gunpowder for people were, realistically, of middling wealth in their societies. It's not quite right to call them the truck drivers of their day....but that's probably the best analogy I can make. They weren't likely as wealthy as the men they sold slaves to...or the men they bought gunpowder and muskets from. The Africans they bought Africans from were the wealthiest Africans they could find....the kings of their various tribes and kingdoms.

 

[SummerMadness]

The programs I'm imagining? No.

For the record, the bill is entitled "Commission to Study and Develop Reparation Proposals...". There are no actual programs yet.

Very true. There needs to be an actual commission as people are attacking proposals and ideas that don’t exist. That is simply ignorance. There is a strategy to this, which is stall efforts so as to avoid any reforms. We saw this same tactic used when it came to the DOJ examining the police. Denial and obfuscation of police misconduct and racism as part of an effort to reform the police. The thing about these studies is they help to shed much needed light on the issue, opponents don’t want that.

I often wonder if maintaining a racist status quo is pushed because of fear of the new versus satisfaction with the current inequality because of some misguided view that such inequality is “natural.”

Reparations Won’t Start With Congress. A President Needs to Do That.

Too many Americans believe reparations consists of white Americans alive today being held culpable for slavery and Jim Crow and personally responsible for compensation. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell echoed these sentiments in a recent interview, saying “I don't think reparations for something that happened 150 years ago when none of us currently living are responsible is a good idea.” Both of these views are usually followed by technocratic arguments about the amount of money it would take or trying to determine citizen’s eligibility.

The study could address these questions head-on. It would show that reparations are an issue not between white and black Americans, but between the American government and the citizens it didn’t protect from racial violence and political, economic and social disenfranchisement. Because we are a capitalist society that accumulated wealth from the labor of enslaved people, financial penalties as restitution to close today’s racial wealth gap are often the default measures to address the historical wrongs. But we are also a democratic republic, so the study could explore other innovative means of reparations, such as this thought experiment on weighted voting in which African American’ votes are given more value than white votes for a designated period of time.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Very true. There needs to be an actual commission as people are attacking proposals and ideas that don’t exist. That is simply ignorance.

If the left can decide what it means by reparations....perhaps we can get to the actual proposals.

There is a strategy to this, which is stall efforts so as to avoid any reforms.

Asking what people mean by reparations is a valid point.

Apparently, a significant number of those asking for them want to institute systemic racism.

I often wonder if maintaining a racist status quo is pushed because of fear of the new versus satisfaction with the current inequality because of some misguided view that such inequality is “natural.”

The view that inequality is natural? It doesn't matter if we're talking about the same race of people....there's always inequality. Ever since the first cities and societies were formed....there's been inequality. Natural would be an accurate description....so would inevitable.

 

[SummerMadness]

When Government Drew the Color Line

Richard Rothstein, an education analyst at the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, thinks John Roberts is a bad historian. The Color of Law, his powerful history of governmental efforts to impose housing segregation, was written in part as a retort. “Residential segregation was created by state action,” he writes, not merely by amorphous “societal” influences. While private discrimination also deserves some share of the blame, Rothstein shows that “racially explicit policies of federal, state, and local governments…segregated every metropolitan area in the United States.” Government agencies used public housing to clear mixed neighborhoods and create segregated ones. Governments built highways as buffers to keep the races apart. They used federal mortgage insurance to usher in an era of suburbanization on the condition that developers keep blacks out. From New Dealers to county sheriffs, government agencies at every level helped impose segregation—not de facto but de jure.

One of the great analyses in Rothstein’s book is how he demonstrates that government policies are the reason for the current problem. Arguments that de facto segregation is behind the current segregated country we live in is misplaced and ignores the policies that created the problem, along with the current inequality. You can’t address the issue until you address the direct impact of the government’s hand on these communities.

 

[Gigimo]

Repetitions for all tax payers? Paid by the tax payers? For what?

Slavery never went away in this country it just morphed into something else, it's financial now. (I have to laugh when politicians say we need to tax the rich more)

 

[SummerMadness]

Slavery never went away in this country it just morphed into something else, it's financial now. (I have to laugh when politicians say we need to tax the rich more)

This is a thoughtless comment. Chattel slavery is in no way comparative to paying taxes. That’s a hyperbole that is disrespectful to enslaved people.

 

[Gigimo]

This is a thoughtless comment. Chattel slavery is in no way comparative to paying taxes. That’s a hyperbole that is disrespectful to enslaved people.

So why are so many folks in poverty these days? (And to think there are people voting for this to happen)

Is it because they want to be or is it because of politicians and the elite?

And what group of people is the most susceptible to being in poverty? (Might it be the ones you want to give reparations to)?

Now if you think about what this all means you will figure out what I meant about slavery hasn't ended it's just taken a different form, it effects more folks of all colors now...