T__IP- Fill in the blanks

Big Drew

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I'm hoping some of our reformed friends can help me get a grasp on this theology.

T-Total depravity...makes perfect sense to me...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

U- Unconditional Election- this is where it starts getting mirky...on the one hand, I can see where it makes sense, it's clearly stated in the Bible that there is an elect. But I can't wrap my mind around how this meshes with, "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth..."

L- Limited Atonement- Goes right along with unconditional election...If there is only an elect few then the Christ's sacrifice was only for them...yet it's sufficient for all...

Irresistible Grace- Okay, I get this one too. Speaking from my personal salvation experience, I knew when I was convicted in my heart of my sins, and God was calling me to Him, and I answered this call. I tried to get away from it, but I couldn't.

P- Perseverance of the saints- I only recently began to understand this...if one is truly born again, they may stray, but they will always return to the Shepherd.

I guess my issue with election and limited atonement is that I'm looking at it through my human eyes. If I put on God glasses then it becomes clearer...if God is omnipotent, then He knows who will be His child and who will not. But then I struggle with if He knows, then why the need for evangelism? Although, if His grace is irresistible then there's no way for our free will to come into play in regards to our Salvation...sorry, I'm just typing out my thoughts...

I think the hardest part for me to comprehend is that if God knows who His children are, and He calls them...then why not the others? It seems cruel to place someone here just to be sentenced to death...

Is my understanding of election incorrect?
 

Cush

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I'm hoping some of our reformed friends can help me get a grasp on this theology.

T-Total depravity...makes perfect sense to me...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

U- Unconditional Election- this is where it starts getting mirky...on the one hand, I can see where it makes sense, it's clearly stated in the Bible that there is an elect. But I can't wrap my mind around how this meshes with, "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth..."

L- Limited Atonement- Goes right along with unconditional election...If there is only an elect few then the Christ's sacrifice was only for them...yet it's sufficient for all...

Irresistible Grace- Okay, I get this one too. Speaking from my personal salvation experience, I knew when I was convicted in my heart of my sins, and God was calling me to Him, and I answered this call. I tried to get away from it, but I couldn't.

P- Perseverance of the saints- I only recently began to understand this...if one is truly born again, they may stray, but they will always return to the Shepherd.

I guess my issue with election and limited atonement is that I'm looking at it through my human eyes. If I put on God glasses then it becomes clearer...if God is omnipotent, then He knows who will be His child and who will not. But then I struggle with if He knows, then why the need for evangelism? Although, if His grace is irresistible then there's no way for our free will to come into play in regards to our Salvation...sorry, I'm just typing out my thoughts...

I think the hardest part for me to comprehend is that if God knows who His children are, and He calls them...then why not the others? It seems cruel to place someone here just to be sentenced to death...

Is my understanding of election incorrect?

Hi Big Drew, I recommend a video series on the subject: Amazing Grace - The History and Theology of Calvinism - Christforums

The video also includes the historical context of the TULIP so that you can understand it better.

And also: The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29 - Christforums

I think the above article really clarifies the Arminian and Calvinism positions on a very controversial verse.

I guess my issue with election and limited atonement is that I'm looking at it through my human eyes. If I put on God glasses then it becomes clearer...if God is omnipotent, then He knows who will be His child and who will not. But then I struggle with if He knows, then why the need for evangelism? Although, if His grace is irresistible then there's no way for our free will to come into play in regards to our Salvation...sorry, I'm just typing out my thoughts...

What you are struggling with plagues many entry level Calvinist, it is called fatalism. Basically, if this, then why try? The answer may be simpler than you think, even if not a Calvinist, the question arises in a simple question, if God is sovereign, why pray? Will it deter the outcome? Of course, we know that prayer pleases God, and likewise concerning evangelism. God uses ordinary means for evangelism. That is, people, and since we do not know who the Elect are then we are to go and preach the gospel to every tribe tongue and nation without distinction. It is an honor to be included in the great commission!

God bless,
Cush
 
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DingDing

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I'm hoping some of our reformed friends can help me get a grasp on this theology.

T-Total depravity...makes perfect sense to me...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

...

Is my understanding of election incorrect?

Hi, I didn't even read the rest of your post... the answer is "No", you don't understand the calvinist position. (And please do visit my thread on corporate election.) If you agree with their definition of total depravity (where you said, "...makes perfect sense to me..."), then you have already sold the farm. You really, and I mean really, need to understand what they (calvinists) mean by these words. I would NEVER say that I agree with their definition of total depravity - and I mean NEVER! (Or should I say, that I would NEVER agree that their definition is applicable to mankind.) You really need to have a full grasp of what they mean by such words before you say that you agree with them.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I'm hoping some of our reformed friends can help me get a grasp on this theology.

T-Total depravity...makes perfect sense to me...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
That part is biblical. The problem is that many (maybe most?) Calvinsts believe that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel. The remedy? God chooses them, regenerates them, and then they will believe. None of which is found in Scripture.

U- Unconditional Election- this is where it starts getting mirky...on the one hand, I can see where it makes sense, it's clearly stated in the Bible that there is an elect. But I can't wrap my mind around how this meshes with, "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth..."
Yes, very murky. The reason is that Calvinists view the doctrine of election as being chosen for salvation. But Scripture reveals that of the at least 6 different categories of election, none are for salvation.
1. Jesus Christ is the Elect One. Savior, didn't need saving.
2. Israel was God's chosen nation. Most weren't saved.
3. angels are described as elect in 1 Tim 5:21, and the Bible says nothing about angels either being saved or needing salvation.
4. NT believers are chosen...to be holy and blameless. Eph 1:4
5. the 12 disciples were chosen. John 6:70, yet one of them was a devil. Obviously not saved.
6. Paul was chosen as an instrument (evangelist) of God.

These categories reveal that election is being chosen for service, not salvation. When that is understood, all the murk clears up.

L- Limited Atonement- Goes right along with unconditional election...If there is only an elect few then the Christ's sacrifice was only for them...yet it's sufficient for all...
Scripture plainly states that Jesus died for everyone.
2 Cor 5:14,15, and Heb 2:9

Irresistible Grace- Okay, I get this one too. Speaking from my personal salvation experience, I knew when I was convicted in my heart of my sins, and God was calling me to Him, and I answered this call. I tried to get away from it, but I couldn't.
But Stephen was clear that their forefathers "always resisted the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51).

P- Perseverance of the saints- I only recently began to understand this...if one is truly born again, they may stray, but they will always return to the Shepherd.
This point is confusing because some see it as only eternal security, which is totally biblical, while others see it as how you understand it.

Yet, Scripture is clear that believers may stray from the faith until their death. Jesus was clear about the second soil believing for a while and then falling away in Luke 8:13. And Paul told Timothy that in latter days, some will abandon the faith.

Those who do will face God's discipline, which can include physical death, as we read in Acts 5 regarding Ananias and sapphira and 1 Cor 11:30, and stated in 1 John 5:16.

I guess my issue with election and limited atonement is that I'm looking at it through my human eyes. If I put on God glasses then it becomes clearer...if God is omnipotent, then He knows who will be His child and who will not.
But for Calvinists, this isn't really the issue. For them, election is really about God choosing who will believe, as their doctrine demands. Yet I've found few who will even admit this. But it is exactly the foundation for their doctrine. And the Bible never teaches this. In fact, the Bible teaches that God is pleased to save those who believe. That's obviously a choice. Salvation is based on believing in Jesus Christ. It is a free choice.

But then I struggle with if He knows, then why the need for evangelism?
Yes, Calvinism leads to many such contradictions. Of course God knows who will believe. But nowhere in Scripture do we read of God choosing who will believe.

Just the opposite; He chooses (elects) those who believe.
Eph 1:4 - For he chose us (believers, per 1:19) in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The phrase "in Him" is a parenthetical phrase which can be understood as "who are in Him". That's what "us" are; in Him.

Although, if His grace is irresistible then there's no way for our free will to come into play in regards to our Salvation...sorry, I'm just typing out my thoughts...
Exactly. Which is why His grace isn't irresistible. The Holy Spirit can be resisted. The Pharisees did it all the time. Of course, the Calvinist will respond that they weren't chosen (to believe), but that's just not taught in the Bible.

I think the hardest part for me to comprehend is that if God knows who His children are, and He calls them...then why not the others? It seems cruel to place someone here just to be sentenced to death...
No one is sentenced to death. Try to put Calvinism aside and remember that God's grace, which includes salvation, is extended to all of mankind:
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Is my understanding of election incorrect?
Calvinism's understanding of election is incorrect.

Hopefully my explanations will help you understand what the Bible says about each of the points of TULIP.

I'm happy to provide any further clarifications as necessary.
 
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FreeGrace2

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TULIP

John 6:44

No man can come to me (T)
Unless the Father (U)
Draws them to me (I)
Then I will raise them up (L)
On the last day (P)

God bless,
William
Just one more thing: John 6:45, which is the very next verse:

"It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."

So, the ones who are "drawn to Jesus" have -
1. been taught by the Father
2. listened and learned from Him

Everyone has been taught, but not everyone listened and learned from Him.

It's only those who paid attention (listened and learned) will come to Jesus.

Therefore, TULIP is not found in John 6:44 or any other verse or passage.
 
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MDC

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That part is biblical. The problem is that many (maybe most?) Calvinsts believe that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel. The remedy? God chooses them, regenerates them, and then they will believe. None of which is found in Scripture.


Yes, very murky. The reason is that Calvinists view the doctrine of election as being chosen for salvation. But Scripture reveals that of the at least 6 different categories of election, none are for salvation.
1. Jesus Christ is the Elect One. Savior, didn't need saving.
2. Israel was God's chosen nation. Most weren't saved.
3. angels are described as elect in 1 Tim 5:21, and the Bible says nothing about angels either being saved or needing salvation.
4. NT believers are chosen...to be holy and blameless. Eph 1:4
5. the 12 disciples were chosen. John 6:70, yet one of them was a devil. Obviously not saved.
6. Paul was chosen as an instrument (evangelist) of God.

These categories reveal that election is being chosen for service, not salvation. When that is understood, all the murk clears up.


Scripture plainly states that Jesus died for everyone.
2 Cor 5:14,15, and Heb 2:9


But Stephen was clear that their forefathers "always resisted the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51).


This point is confusing because some see it as only eternal security, which is totally biblical, while others see it as how you understand it.

Yet, Scripture is clear that believers may stray from the faith until their death. Jesus was clear about the second soil believing for a while and then falling away in Luke 8:13. And Paul told Timothy that in latter days, some will abandon the faith.

Those who do will face God's discipline, which can include physical death, as we read in Acts 5 regarding Ananias and sapphira and 1 Cor 11:30, and stated in 1 John 5:16.


But for Calvinists, this isn't really the issue. For them, election is really about God choosing who will believe, as their doctrine demands. Yet I've found few who will even admit this. But it is exactly the foundation for their doctrine. And the Bible never teaches this. In fact, the Bible teaches that God is pleased to save those who believe. That's obviously a choice. Salvation is based on believing in Jesus Christ. It is a free choice.


Yes, Calvinism leads to many such contradictions. Of course God knows who will believe. But nowhere in Scripture do we read of God choosing who will believe.

Just the opposite; He chooses (elects) those who believe.
Eph 1:4 - For he chose us (believers, per 1:19) in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The phrase "in Him" is a parenthetical phrase which can be understood as "who are in Him". That's what "us" are; in Him.


Exactly. Which is why His grace isn't irresistible. The Holy Spirit can be resisted. The Pharisees did it all the time. Of course, the Calvinist will respond that they weren't chosen (to believe), but that's just not taught in the Bible.


No one is sentenced to death. Try to put Calvinism aside and remember that God's grace, which includes salvation, is extended to all of mankind:
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.


Calvinism's understanding of election is incorrect.

Hopefully my explanations will help you understand what the Bible says about each of the points of TULIP.

I'm happy to provide any further clarifications as necessary.
You pretty much expounded on the Arminian 5 articles of remonstrance given by the Arminius followers in 1610. The counter response to this is TULIP, which is the biblical view. So according to you, what actually keeps a believer secure in Christ?
 
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MDC

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Just one more thing: John 6:45, which is the very next verse:

"It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."

So, the ones who are "drawn to Jesus" have -
1. been taught by the Father
2. listened and learned from Him

Everyone has been taught, but not everyone listened and learned from Him.

It's only those who paid attention (listened and learned) will come to Jesus.

Therefore, TULIP is not found in John 6:44 or any other verse or passage.
Synergistic salvation, which semi pelegians (arminians) hold to, isn't found in scripture and is heresy. God is Sovereign and ALL of salvation is of grace!! Conditioned solely in Christ Jesus and for His sake alone... Which synergist do not believe
 
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FreeGrace2

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You pretty much expounded on the Arminian 5 articles of remonstrance given by the Arminius followers in 1610.
Actually, I didn't. I explained the error of several points of TULIP.

The counter response to this is TULIP, which is the biblical view.
If what I posted isn't biblical, would you so kindly explain why specifically? I would appreciate it.

So according to you, what actually keeps a believer secure in Christ?
It isn't according to me, it's what the Bible says.

And the Bible says that Jesus Christ keeps the believer secure.

This is shown plainly in the doctrine of the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit in Eph 1;13,14, 4:30, and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

Also shown in Romans from the fact that eternal life is a gift of God from Rom 6:23, and the fact that God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

Also, Jesus was very clear about the eternal security for those He gives eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH, per John 10:28.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Synergistic salvation, which semi pelegians (arminians) hold to, isn't found in scripture and is heresy.
Freely believing in Christ isn't synergistic. Our act of believing doesn't "help" God in any way to save those who believe.

God is Sovereign and ALL of salvation is of grace!!
Exactly! Salvation is His plan. 1 Cor 1:21 states quite clearly that He is pleased to save those who believe.

Does any Scripture teach that He chooses who will believe?

Conditioned solely in Christ Jesus and for His sake alone... Which synergist do not believe
Since I'm not a synergist, I also believe that salvation is conditioned solely in Christ Jesus.
 
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EmSw

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Synergistic salvation, which semi pelegians (arminians) hold to, isn't found in scripture and is heresy. God is Sovereign and ALL of salvation is of grace!! Conditioned solely in Christ Jesus and for His sake alone... Which synergist do not believe

Matthew 19:17
...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

So you think Jesus taught heresy!
 
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MDC

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Matthew 19:17
...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

So you think Jesus taught heresy!
Those who teach ones righteous deeds MERITS salvation, teach heresy! Jesus taught salvation in Him, and that by the grace of God. Your persistence in teaching self righteous work based salvation, proves without a doubt your rejection of the gospel of Christ Jesus. The hardness of your heart is evident in the doctrine you hold to. What do you actually believe Christ did to save anyone EmSw??
 
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EmSw

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Those who teach ones righteous deeds MERITS salvation, teach heresy! Jesus taught salvation in Him, and that by the grace of God. Your persistence in teaching self righteous work based salvation, proves without a doubt your rejection of the gospel of Christ Jesus. The hardness of your heart is evident in the doctrine you hold to. What do you actually believe Christ did to save anyone EmSw??

Jesus taught exactly what you oppose.

Matthew 19:17
...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Why do have such a hard time with this truth? Why do you call this truth heresy?

Jesus taught us the truth by which we are saved. Truth is what saves us. Truth is what saved in the OT, and it is truth which saves in the NT. If Jesus said, 'if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”, this is not to be questioned and another way sought to life.

Only Jesus has the words of life. You won't find them anywhere else. You can try another way to life, but it only leads down the wide path. Many had a difficult time with Jesus' teachings in the gospels; it hasn't changed at all.
 
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MDC

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Jesus taught exactly what you oppose.

Matthew 19:17
...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Why do have such a hard time with this truth? Why do you call this truth heresy?

Jesus taught us the truth by which we are saved. Truth is what saves us. Truth is what saved in the OT, and it is truth which saves in the NT. If Jesus said, 'if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”, this is not to be questioned and another way sought to life.

Only Jesus has the words of life. You won't find them anywhere else. You can try another way to life, but it only leads down the wide path. Many had a difficult time with Jesus' teachings in the gospels; it hasn't changed at all.
So you DONT believe Christ, in and of Himself, saved anyone.. Which I've been trying to tell you by your false doctrine of pelagianism.. And is why TULIP exposes pelagianism and semi pelagianism (arminianism) for what it is
 
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FreeGrace2

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EmSw said:
Matthew 19:17
...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

So you think Jesus taught heresy!
Those who teach ones righteous deeds MERITS salvation, teach heresy! Jesus taught salvation in Him, and that by the grace of God. Your persistence in teaching self righteous work based salvation, proves without a doubt your rejection of the gospel of Christ Jesus. The hardness of your heart is evident in the doctrine you hold to. What do you actually believe Christ did to save anyone EmSw??
Apparently not much, it would appear.

However, Peter was quite clear about salvation:
Acts 15:11- No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

And by definition, "grace" is without "works".

Eh 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace...apart from works.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Jesus taught exactly what you oppose.

Matthew 19:17
...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Why do have such a hard time with this truth? Why do you call this truth heresy?
Such a misunderstanding of what Jesus said is refuted by many other verses that have been shared and dismissed by those who want to believe that works/deeds/effort is required for salvation.

Jesus taught us the truth by which we are saved. Truth is what saves us. Truth is what saved in the OT, and it is truth which saves in the NT.
True. And what is truth? Jesus Christ Himself. John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am The Way and The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

He didn't say He was a way, or a truth, or a life.

If Jesus said, 'if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”, this is not to be questioned and another way sought to life.
The challenge is to prove that "enter into life" specifically means to receive eternal life, since it clearly does NOT say "enter into eternal life".

One's presuppositions and opinions must be backed up by Scripture.

Only Jesus has the words of life.
Absolutely! And this is what He said:
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

John 10:28
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

These 3 verses refutes any claim of "keeping commandments" for salvation.

You won't find them anywhere else. You can try another way to life, but it only leads down the wide path. Many had a difficult time with Jesus' teachings in the gospels; it hasn't changed at all.
It seems that you yourself has a difficult time with what He said.
 
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EmSw

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So you DONT believe Christ, in and of Himself, saved anyone.. Which I've been trying to tell you by your false doctrine of pelagianism.. And is why TULIP exposes pelagianism and semi pelagianism (arminianism) for what it is

You are the one who doesn't believe the words of Jesus! They seem to interfere with your belief of salvation.

Let me ask, what is so difficult with these words of Jesus?

Matthew 19:17
...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
 
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