Syriac Christianity forum

[The Liturgist]

So what are the distinct teachings that come out of this group?

Again, its not a denomination. There are distinctives, however, and those are the use of Classical Syriac or vernacular Aramaic in the liturgy, and in many cases, vernacular Aramaic as a spoken language, the use of the Peshitta, whicj is the fourth century Syriac translation of the Bible which replaced some earlier, harder to understand translations, and completely replaced Tatian’s Diatessaron, which is a “Gospel Harmony” which makes for miserable reading vs. the actual gospels, and there is a shared heritage in that the different ethnic groups and tribes, which include Syrian Jews, Syrians, Greeks, Persians, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Maronites, Chaldean Jews, Arab Christians, Malagasy-speaking Indians from the Malabar Coast, Kochin Jews from Kerala, and Sri Lankans, were all evangelized as a result of the efforts of Thomas the Apostle, who was the Apostle to the East, just as Peter and Paul were the Apostles to the far more numerous Jews and Gentiles of the West, and Andrew headed Northwest through Byzantium and into the Bosphorus region, and Bartholomew and Thaddeus went to Caucasia, where they were martyred. Thomas the Apostle was also martyred; a furious Hindu threw a spear at him, but his work was continued by his followers the apostles Addai and Mari, who are numbered among the seventy.

Also of vital importance to the heritage of Syriac Christianity are the beautiful hymns and metrical homilies of Ephrem the Syrian, who was the third greatest Deacon of all time, after Stephen the Protomartyr and Philip the Deacon.

Syriac Christians also translated massive amounts of material; many ancient books are known to us only because Syriac monks translated them from Greek and Syriac texts to Arabic at the request of the Islamic philosophers, and into Jewish dialects of Aramaic at the request of philosophers such as Maimonides, and these translations became accessible to Europeans, who initially translated from Arabic to Latin but were in due course provided with better source manuscripts. This translation activity is considered to have initiated the Renaissance by restoring Western European access to the full range of early church fathers and also the great philosophers, mathematicians and physicians of antiquity such as Aristotle, Pythagoras, Euclid and Galen.

 

[The Liturgist]

So the Syriacs that come here, should just post in the forums for their faith groups. I'm not seeing the need for a separate forum.

Right now there are no forums for most of their faith groups.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Again, its not a denomination. There are distinctives, however, and those are the use of Classical Syriac or vernacular Aramaic in the liturgy, and in many cases, vernacular Aramaic as a spoken language, the use of the Peshitta, whicj is the fourth century Syriac translation of the Bible which replaced some earlier, harder to understand translations, and completely replaced Tatian’s Diatessaron, which is a “Gospel Harmony” which makes for miserable reading vs. the actual gospels, and there is a shared heritage in that the different ethnic groups and tribes, which include Syrian Jews, Syrians, Greeks, Persians, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Maronites, Chaldean Jews, Arab Christians, Malagasy-speaking Indians from the Malabar Coast, Kochin Jews from Kerala, and Sri Lankans, were all evangelized as a result of the efforts of Thomas the Apostle, who was the Apostle to the East, just as Peter and Paul were the Apostles to the far more numerous Jews and Gentiles of the West, and Andrew headed Northwest through Byzantium and into the Bosphorus region, and Bartholomew and Thaddeus went to Caucasia, where they were martyred. Thomas the Apostle was also martyred; a furious Hindu threw a spear at him, but his work was continued by his followers the apostles Addai and Mari, who are numbered among the seventy.

Also of vital importance to the heritage of Syriac Christianity are the beautiful hymns and metrical homilies of Ephrem the Syrian, who was the third greatest Deacon of all time, after Stephen the Protomartyr and Philip the Deacon.

Syriac Christians also translated massive amounts of material; many ancient books are known to us only because Syriac monks translated them from Greek and Syriac texts to Arabic at the request of the Islamic philosophers, and into Jewish dialects of Aramaic at the request of philosophers such as Maimonides, and these translations became accessible to Europeans, who initially translated from Arabic to Latin but were in due course provided with better source manuscripts. This translation activity is considered to have initiated the Renaissance by restoring Western European access to the full range of early church fathers and also the great philosophers, mathematicians and physicians of antiquity such as Aristotle, Pythagoras, Euclid and Galen.

When there's a new forum, there's usually a unifying factor, I'm not seeing it here. It's an interesting philosophy and history you're talking about but in a sub forum there needs to be a thesis of what is discussed and this appears to be too broad of a scope.

Controversial Theology, or Christian Philosophy might be a good place to discuss some of it.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Right now there are no forums for most of their faith groups.

Such as? (name some)

 

[The Liturgist]

When there's a new forum, there's usually a unifying factor, I'm not seeing it here. It's an interesting philosophy and history you're talking about but in a sub forum there needs to be a thesis of what is discussed and this appears to be too broad of a scope.

Controversial Theology, or Christian Philosophy might be a good place to discuss some of it.

Controversial Theology would not be a good place to discuss any of it because all of the Syriac Churches adhere completely to the CF.com Statement of Faith and none of them teach Full Preterism, Universalism, Annhilationism, or other topics generally regarded as heterodox, which we are only allowed to discuss in Controversial Christian Theology.

Christian Philosophy would also be largely irrelevant in that the Syriac monks did not produce the philosophical works they translated; there were some Syriac Christian philosophers, but far more were theologians, particularly poets like Ephrem.

Such as? (name some)

Pretty much every group that I listed except for the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.

And the Syriac community does not want a sectarian forum; they have those. Their desire is for an ecumenical forum with participation from other Christians.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

So the Syriacs that come here, should just post in the forums for their faith groups. I'm not seeing the need for a separate forum.

Well in my opinion.... I haven't lobbied for one because the problem is easily fixed by just having one person join the forum from that group and ask for something like an Assyrian Church of the East forum.
Infact, if I wanted to, I could rig it and get my best friend to join the forum, and when doing so ask for an ACE forum that would be for ACE or anyone that uses "The Liturgy of Addai and Mari", which he does as well as all the Assyrian stuff translated into English.


It also hasn't stopped me from posting topical material on Syriac topics, I basically do it piecemeal, and have occasional posted it as a "Denominational" specific theology and name Assyrian church of the East or Syriac Christian in the title.


I guess where the idea has merit is if you like the topic and want to read on it, or talk on it there isn't really a place to consolidate it. You sort of are jumping around from board to board after you do a key word search to find something. So for folks who care about it might make it better that way.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Pretty much every group that I listed

I recall you listed regular denominations that just happened to be syriac.

So what are the doctrinal differences?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well in my opinion.... I haven't lobbied for one because the problem is easily fixed by just having one person join the forum from that group and ask for something like an Assyrian Church of the East forum.
Infact, if I wanted to, I could rig it and get my best friend to join the forum, and when doing so ask for an ACE forum that would be for ACE or anyone that uses "The Liturgy of Addai and Mari", which he does as well as all the Assyrian stuff translated into English.


It also hasn't stopped me from posting topical material on Syriac topics, I basically do it piecemeal, and have occasional posted it as a "Denominational" specific theology and name Assyrian church of the East or Syriac Christian in the title.


I guess where the idea has merit is if you like the topic and want to read on it, or talk on it there isn't really a place to consolidate it. You sort of are jumping around from board to board after you do a key word search to find something. So for folks who care about it might make it better that way.

It reminds me of this one time when an EO quoted a psalm from the liturgy, but it was longer than the version in the protestant canon. This caused quite the controversy, I cannot find the thread. If there are differences like that, I could see the need for a new forum.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It reminds me of this one time when an EO quoted a psalm from the liturgy, but it was longer than the version in the protestant canon. This caused quite the controversy, I cannot find the thread. If there are differences like that, I could see the need for a new forum.

haha I would like to read that!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

haha I would like to read that!

Yeah, If I ever find it, I might resurrect the thread if it's not locked.

However, I've noticed the ancient traditions tend to have more books in their canon, and the canonical distinctions are part of what makes the group discussions distinct. Was curious if there was a distinction like that.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

If there are differences like that, I could see the need for a new forum.

Well here an example. I think this tradition is sort of rare now, but I thought Liturgist saw it.

Imagine a sermon that is not spoken, but rather sung, and it is arraigned as poetry like a hymn.

That is an example of Syriac stuff. Christ also is suppose to have done that, if you read people talk about the Sermon on the Mount, his sermons and sayings etc. My thread "Christ the poet" sparked this discussion, which is inspired by stuff I read on earlier message boards, and Blog articles like the one below.


Aramaic Herald: Jesus the Poet: Christ’s Words as Hebrew Poetry By Stephen Andrew Missick

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well here an example. I think this tradition is sort of rare, but I thought Liturgist saw it.

Imagine a sermon that is not spoken, but rather sung, and it is arraigned as poetry like a hymn.

That is an example of Syriac stuff. Christ also is suppose to have done that, if you read people talk about the Sermon on the Mount, his sermons and sayings etc. My thread "Christ the poet" sparked this discussion, which is inspired by stuff I read on earlier message boards, and Blog articles like the one below.


Aramaic Herald: Jesus the Poet: Christ’s Words as Hebrew Poetry By Stephen Andrew Missick

I've listened to an orthodox liturgy on You Tube before, but a poetic version that is sung would be like competition against Islam that sings their book. Intriguing.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

it sounds promising, but getting that focus defined so the new forum (if it becomes a thing) doesn't get trolled due to a lack of rules is probably good to figure out in advance.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

it sounds promising, but getting that focus defined so the new forum (if it becomes a thing) doesn't get trolled due to a lack of rules is probably good to figure out in advance.

Actually the easiest way to do that is take a look at how other boards are setup and copy and convert their policies.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Actually the easiest way to do that is take a look at how other boards are setup and copy and convert their policies.

However, this discussion has revealed that this grouping of people is not like the others. In any case, if the admins approve the idea, I have no objections, was mostly concerned about the lack of specific focus.

 

[Pioneer3mm]

So presently there is no denomination-neutral place on the Internet to talk abou Syriac Aramaic Christianity or the Syriac Aramaic speaking churches, which include the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church the Indian Orthodox Church, the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, the Church of South India, the Malankara Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, the Syriac Catholic Church, and also isolated communities in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. And there are a few other Protestant denominations I think, for example, I recall seeing mention of a Syriac Pentecostal Church.

This grouping of churches includes three Oriental Orthodox denominations, two ancient denominations descended from the Church of the East (sometimes incorrectly called Nestorian), five Sui Juris Catholic churches, including the Maronite Catholic Church, which is the second largest religion in Lebanon (and I recall either the President or the Prime Minister is required to be a Maronite under the treaties that hold the country together), at least three Protestant denominations, including the Church of South India, which is one of the largest in the world, as it, and its counterpart, the Church of North India, was formed by the merger of most Protestant churches in India after the end of the British Raj, but the CSI embraced aspects of Syriac identity because Syriac Christianity has been in India since before 53 AD, when the Apostle Thomas was martyred there, with a spear.

This group of churches includes a vast diaspora in the US, UK, Australia, Canada, and Continental Europe, particularly Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden and Russia, and these churches have large indigenous populations in Lebanon and India, a smaller indigenous population in Israel, and persecuted populations ranging from under ten thousand in Turkey (formerly the most populous Syriac Orthodox country) to hundreds of thousands in Syria, Iraq and Iran.

Such a forum would need to be in the English language because this is the lingua franca of the Syriac Christian communities. Not all of them speak Syriac in the vernacular and those that do speak in different dialects that aren’t really mutually intelligible. As a group, however, Syriac-speaking Christians are the largest users of Aramaic, and of the roughly ten million Syriac Christians worldwide, not counting the Church of South India, a million can speak vernacular Syriac, including nearly the entire community of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East. Thus, Syriac Christians are collectively the largest vernacular users of the Aramaic language, by far, and our Lord spoke a dialect of Aramaic.

Syriac Christianity in India.
---
Modern Syriac/Thomas Christians in India believe that
Thomas arrived in India...
- AD 52.
---
Early history of Christianity in India.
- Interesting to study/read..
---
I was in India..some years ago.
- Short trip.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Syriac Christianity in India.
---
Modern Syriac/Thomas Christians in India believe that
Thomas arrived in India...
- AD 52.
---
Early history of Christianity in India.
- Interesting to study/read..
---
I was in India..some years ago.
- Short trip.

Those guys are still around? I heard the Catholics slew them as heretics when they arrived.

 

[Pioneer3mm]

To: Post #37.
----
There are many Syrian/Thomas Christians in Kerala..
- Southwestern Coast of India.
----
If you are interested in..learning more about it,
- You can read some online articles..starting with
Wikipedia.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

To: Post #37.
----
There are many Syrian/Thomas Christians in Kerala..
- Southwestern Coast of India.
----
If you are interested in..learning more about it,
- You can read some online articles..starting with
Wikipedia.

It's just nice to know they're still around. If the gospels tell us anything, Thomas said weird things.

 

[The Liturgist]

Those guys are still around? I heard the Catholics slew them as heretics when they arrived.

No, the Catholics did not kill them. They were not even able to convert all of them to Catholicism, and those that did convert wound up keeping the East Syriac liturgical rite.

Those that did not sent messengers to the Catholicos of the East, but their communication wound up reaching the Maphrian, the Syriac Orthodox Catholicos of the East, and then his boss, the Patriarch of Antioch rather than the autocephalous Catholicos of the East who was the Patriarch of the Church of the East, of which the Mar Thoma Christians were a part. So most joined the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, but a schism emerged in the late 19th century involving Indians who desired local control, and a very small third Oriental Orthodox Church, this one in full communion with the Protestant Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which is itself a part of the Anglican Communion, came into being in Thoyizoor. Meanwhile, the Assyrian Church of the East launched a mission and many St. Thomas Christians returned to them. The Syriac Orthodox also had a Western Rite mission in Sri Lanka, which was recently revived.

But remember, the Mar Thoma Christians are just one facet of the Syriac Christian community. You also have the Assyrians in the Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, and the vaguely related Chaldean Catholic Church (technically, the Chaldeans are in a different tribe than the members of the Assyrian church, and the members of that tribe, which were historically concentrated in Baghdad and its predecessor Seleucia-Cstesipon (the Euphrates changes its alignment, which has caused what amounts to Babylon to have been relocated at least twice in the past 2500 years).

Then you have the West Syriacs: the Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics, and the Aramaic speaking members of the Antiochian Orthodox Church, who historically worshipped using a liturgy similar to that of the Syriac Orthodox, and you have the Maronite Catholics, who were also evangelized by St. Thomas, but broke away from the Syriac Orthodox and settled in the mountains of Lebanon, forming a distinct culture centered around the idea of a Phoenician identity and also with a strong emphasis on military defense against the Muslims, much like the Druze, the third largest religion in Lebanon, which also took advantage of the mountains to prevent the Muslims from killing them.

But all of these Christians use the Peshitta Bible, they were all evangelized originally by St. Thomas and his disciples Addai and Mari, and they all have a shared poetic and hymnographic culture largely defined by the beautiful hymns and metrical homilies of Ephrem the Syrian, who last night I discovered was beloved by John Wesley. So for example, the leading fifth century Syriac Orthodox hymnographer and homilest is James of Sarugh, and the leading Assyrian hymnographer from that time was Mar Narsai, and their respective churches style them “the Flute of the Spirit” because all Syriac Christians venerate Ephrem as “the Harp of the Spirit.”