Syriac Christianity forum

[The Liturgist]

So presently there is no denomination-neutral place on the Internet to talk about Syriac Aramaic Christianity or the Syriac Aramaic speaking churches, which include the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church the Indian Orthodox Church, the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, the Church of South India, the Malankara Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, the Syriac Catholic Church, and also isolated communities in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. And there are a few other Protestant denominations I think, for example, I recall seeing mention of a Syriac Pentecostal Church.

This grouping of churches includes three Oriental Orthodox denominations, two ancient denominations descended from the Church of the East (sometimes incorrectly called Nestorian), five Sui Juris Catholic churches, including the Maronite Catholic Church, which is the second largest religion in Lebanon (and I recall either the President or the Prime Minister is required to be a Maronite under the treaties that hold the country together), at least three Protestant denominations, including the Church of South India, which is one of the largest in the world, as it, and its counterpart, the Church of North India, was formed by the merger of most Protestant churches in India after the end of the British Raj, but the CSI embraced aspects of Syriac identity because Syriac Christianity has been in India since before 53 AD, when the Apostle Thomas was martyred there, with a spear.

This group of churches includes a vast diaspora in the US, UK, Australia, Canada, and Continental Europe, particularly Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden and Russia, and these churches have large indigenous populations in Lebanon and India, a smaller indigenous population in Israel, and persecuted populations ranging from under ten thousand in Turkey (formerly the most populous Syriac Orthodox country) to hundreds of thousands in Syria, Iraq and Iran.

Such a forum would need to be in the English language because this is the lingua franca of the Syriac Christian communities. Not all of them speak Syriac in the vernacular and those that do speak in different dialects that aren’t really mutually intelligible. As a group, however, Syriac-speaking Christians are the largest users of Aramaic, and of the roughly ten million Syriac Christians worldwide, not counting the Church of South India, a million can speak vernacular Syriac, including nearly the entire community of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East. Thus, Syriac Christians are collectively the largest vernacular users of the Aramaic language, by far, and our Lord spoke a dialect of Aramaic.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Does that church fit into the Oriental Orthodox Church grouping? We have a forum for that.

The Voice In The Desert - Oriental Orthodox

 

[The Liturgist]

Does that church fit into the Oriental Orthodox Church grouping? We have a forum for that.

The Voice In The Desert - Oriental Orthodox

Well, no, because while three of the Syriac churches are Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East represent a completely independent tradition. You then have the Maronite Catholics, Chaldean Catholics and Syro Malabar Catholics, each of which is its own distinct tradition, as well as two other Sui Juris Eastern Catholic churches which are variants on the Oriental Orthodox. Finally, you have the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which is Protestant and part of the Anglican community, along with other smaller Protestant churches, and the massive Church of South India, which is one of the largest Protestant churches in the world.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well, no, because while three of the Syriac churches are Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East represent a completely independent tradition. You then have the Maronite Catholics, Chaldean Catholics and Syro Malabar Catholics, each of which is its own distinct tradition, as well as two other Sui Juris Eastern Catholic churches which are variants on the Oriental Orthodox. Finally, you have the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which is Protestant and part of the Anglican community, along with other smaller Protestant churches, and the massive Church of South India, which is one of the largest Protestant churches in the world.

So what is distinct about it's beliefs?

 

[The Liturgist]

So what is distinct about it's beliefs?

Its not a distinct denomination, it is a grouping of denominations united by the use of various dialects of the Syriac language, who were evangelized by the Apostle Thomas and his disciples Addai and Mari. There is one other uniting factor and that is continual persecution by Islam for many centuries, including a horrific genocide under Tamerlane in the 12th century, in which all the members of the Church of the East in China, Mongolia, Tibet, Central Asia and the Yemen were killed, and another in 1915, the Sayfo, as the Syriac Orthodox call it, when at least 90% of Syriac speaking Christians in the Ottoman Empire were brutally murdered, and most recently, an attempted genocide in Raqqa and Mosul carried out by ISIS in parallel with their genocide against the Yazidis.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Its not a distinct denomination, it is a grouping of denominations united by the use of various dialects of the Syriac language, who were evangelized by the Apostle Thomas and his disciples Addai and Mari. There is one other uniting factor and that is continual persecution by Islam for many centuries, including a horrific genocide under Tamerlane in the 12th century, in which all the members of the Church of the East in China, Mongolia, Tibet, Central Asia and the Yemen were killed, and another in 1915, the Sayfo, as the Syriac Orthodox call it, when at least 90% of Syriac speaking Christians in the Ottoman Empire were brutally murdered, and most recently, an attempted genocide in Raqqa and Mosul carried out by ISIS in parallel with their genocide against the Yazidis.

But we are one in Christ Jesus, nationality doesn't exist.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I would recommend for persecuted Christians to post their stories in the forum for the Persecuted Christians.

Persecuted Christians

And if they need prayer, to post on the Prayer Wall.

 

[Unqualified]

At the bottom of the page is a place to suggest new forums. It seems very likely with what you are saying that one would be granted for Syriac Christians. I am for it!

 

[The Liturgist]

But we are one in Christ Jesus, nationality doesn't exist.

These groups are not a nationality. Furthermore they are welcoming of converts. Since we have forums for Conservative Christians, Traditional Christians, Moderate Christians, Liberal Christians, Evangelicals, Calvinists and other pan-denominational groupings, I believe Syriac Christianity falls into such a group.

Indeed, it is the only linguistic grouping of Christianity that spans many nationalities and denominations while having certain key attributes which are common to all (for example, the denominations of Syriac Christians I have listed all worship using either the East Syriac or West Syriac pattern, they all have an affinity for the Apostle Thomas, and also a shared love of the beautiful hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, and they share in common the ancient Peshitta, one of the oldest and most respected translations of the Bible).

With all other Christian language groups, I would argue they are either much broader than Syriac Christianity, for example, those descended from Greek or Latin or Church Slavonic speaking Christians, or represent only a single historic nation, for instance, the Armenians, Copts and Ethiopians (who also are accommodated in the Voice in the Desert).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It would be good to have this. But there are some structural limitations on how the board is designed. Like your identity is based on your official jurisdiction or Faith Tradition, and I think you only get one of those. If we had some Assyrian Church of the East, Chaldean Catholics, as well as various groups like my tiny former church, I'm sure it would be kind of moot. Basically you would have an Assyrian Church of the East board or something like that and anybody whether EO, OO, Oriental Catholic etc. would be posting there as well on subjects relevant to it.

But the board architecture or mechanics is kind of the only issue on that. Basically can you have multiple group affiliations? I guess it would not be a problem if this is one of those opt into groups like how we do other boards here.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

So what is distinct about it's beliefs?

But we are one in Christ Jesus, nationality doesn't exist.

This kind of thing is about heritage etc. Lots of people, especially a lot of Messianic Jews, claim that there was no Semitic influence in Christianity, that Christianity was basically taken over by Latins and Greeks etc. but that is not true. There was a third force in Christianity which came from the Syriacs that descended from the Jews and kept some of their language and heritage. From them we get some important insights especially in theology. Theology from the Syriacs was actually more poetic than academic and cerebral.

And the same goes with the understanding of Christ etc. from that line you get more a sense of Christ being the Son of David not just by his lineage and his typological role, but also that he actually used poetic devices in his teaching.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Besides that you get other Typological stuff like this that I posted on recently

The Priesthood of Christ
Got into a discussion on the Aaronic priesthood, which led me to talk about the Syriac tradition and I'm passing on something I quoted from an article on Syriac Typologies (linked below)

"The Priesthood According to James of Saroug, God, in fashioning Adam, imposed hands on him and in breathing on him rendered him a sanctuary. Ephrem explains that God on Mt. Sinai imposed his hand on Moses, and Moses in turn imposed his hand on Aaron. The priestly line of the Old Covenant was ultimately transmitted to Christ through John the Baptist.50 Christ, in descending to Sheol, restored to Adam the grace he had lost. As the Father had breathed the Spirit on the face of Adam, so Christ breathed the Spirit on the face of the Apostles. And by the imposition of His hand on the Apostles, He gave them the priesthood. In the Church, which is the Eden of God, the priests come to give glory and distribute the fruits of the “tree of life” to the whole world. From the waters of this new Eden, they quench those who thirst."

http://cdn.theologicalstudies.net/64/64.3/64.3.4.pdf

 

[dzheremi]

I don't know about a denomination-neutral Syriac forum, but I do think there should be a Church of the East forum here, akin to those that already exist for the EO, OO, RC, etc. Even though there are very few COE in the world, I know there is or was at least one COE person who posted here on CF as Eastern Orthodox, presumably due to lack of an appropriate faith label (as COE is not among the available choices). It did occasionally create confusion.

With the creation of a COE forum, it would seem that all the major traditions would be covered (barring the Syriac Protestants, I suppose...), in that there would be a place for Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Syriacs (in Russia and Georgia), and COE to post -- in their respective communal forums. (Syriac Orthodox in the OO forum, Syriac EO in the EO forum, Syriac Catholics in any of the Catholic forums, etc.).

 

[dzheremi]

Basically can you have multiple group affiliations?

You can do like I did and put some limited affiliation-related info in the little custom title below your username.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

These groups are not a nationality. Furthermore they are welcoming of converts. Since we have forums for Conservative Christians, Traditional Christians, Moderate Christians, Liberal Christians, Evangelicals, Calvinists and other pan-denominational groupings, I believe Syriac Christianity falls into such a group.

Indeed, it is the only linguistic grouping of Christianity that spans many nationalities and denominations while having certain key attributes which are common to all (for example, the denominations of Syriac Christians I have listed all worship using either the East Syriac or West Syriac pattern, they all have an affinity for the Apostle Thomas, and also a shared love of the beautiful hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, and they share in common the ancient Peshitta, one of the oldest and most respected translations of the Bible).

With all other Christian language groups, I would argue they are either much broader than Syriac Christianity, for example, those descended from Greek or Latin or Church Slavonic speaking Christians, or represent only a single historic nation, for instance, the Armenians, Copts and Ethiopians (who also are accommodated in the Voice in the Desert).

So what are the distinct teachings that come out of this group?

 

[The Liturgist]

It would be good to have this. But there are some structural limitations on how the board is designed. Like your identity is based on your official jurisdiction or Faith Tradition, and I think you only get one of those. If we had some Assyrian Church of the East, Chaldean Catholics, as well as various groups like my tiny former church, I'm sure it would be kind of moot. Basically you would have an Assyrian Church of the East board or something like that and anybody whether EO, OO, Oriental Catholic etc. would be posting there as well on subjects relevant to it.

But the board architecture or mechanics is kind of the only issue on that. Basically can you have multiple group affiliations? I guess it would not be a problem if this is one of those opt into groups like how we do other boards here.

I don't know about a denomination-neutral Syriac forum, but I do think there should be a Church of the East forum here, akin to those that already exist for the EO, OO, RC, etc. Even though there are very few COE in the world, I know there is or was at least one COE person who posted here on CF as Eastern Orthodox, presumably due to lack of an appropriate faith label (as COE is not among the available choices). It did occasionally create confusion.

With the creation of a COE forum, it would seem that all the major traditions would be covered (barring the Syriac Protestants, I suppose...), in that there would be a place for Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Syriacs (in Russia and Georgia), and COE to post -- in their respective communal forums. (Syriac Orthodox in the OO forum, Syriac EO in the EO forum, Syriac Catholics in any of the Catholic forums, etc.).

I do agree that there should be an option for Assyrian / Ancient Church of the East (the two churches are in schism at present).

However, I am not proposing a Denominational Forum but rather a forum that caters to multiple denominations, like Conservative Christians, Liberal Christians, Sabbath and the Law, Traditional Theology, and so on.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This kind of thing is about heritage etc. Lots of people, especially a lot of Messianic Jews, claim that there was no Semitic influence in Christianity, that Christianity was basically taken over by Latins and Greeks etc. but that is not true. There was a third force in Christianity which came from the Syriacs that descended from the Jews and kept some of their language and heritage. From them we get some important insights especially in theology. Theology from the Syriacs was actually more poetic than academic and cerebral.

And the same goes with the understanding of Christ etc. from that line you get more a sense of Christ being the Son of David not just by his lineage and his typological role, but also that he actually used poetic devices in his teaching.

So would be distinct between this grouping and say OO or EO?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

However, I am not proposing a Denominational Forum but rather a forum that caters to multiple denominations, like Conservative Christians, Liberal Christians, Sabbath and the Law, Traditional Theology, and so on.

So what's the point, all those forums already exist. Why cause division unless there's distinction?

Since the posts need to be in English, I'm having difficulty seeing what the difference will be.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

So would be distinct between this grouping and say OO or EO?

Well the Assyrian Church of the East is its own thing and should be separate since they were separate and once upon a time, a really huge church in Asia.


But you also do have plenty of OO Syriacs. You got some EO that use the writings of Syriacs, even though Greek took over their worship and culture. Lots of Syriac Catholics, too.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well the Assyrian Church of the East is its own thing and should be separate since they were separate and once upon a time, a really huge church in Asia.


But you also do have plenty of OO Syriacs. You got some EO that use the writings of Syriacs, even though Greek took over their worship and culture. Lots of Syriac Catholics, too.

So the Syriacs that come here, should just post in the forums for their faith groups. I'm not seeing the need for a separate forum.