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Syria & Israel: Examining the Positive Prophecies for God's Heart/People....

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Gxg (G²), Oct 8, 2013.

  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    As said before,

    Many prophecies speak of geographical landmarks and yet had no fulfillment in their time - thus it is a comparision fallacy when assuming that a prophecy mentioning a landmark MUST have been fulfilled when seeing that landmark mentioned in another point of Biblical history. It is a matter of denying how prophecies were interpreted in Biblical antiquity - especially when it comes to the bottom line reality of places where prophecies were said to have been "fulilled" already were REBUILT and remade - counter to the claims of the prophecy of that location never arising again. Ignoring that is ignoring history for the sake of argument...

    That also goes, again, for prophecies that were never fulfilled or shown within Biblical history to have come to pass....

    As said before, you never addressed scripture or the ways it was interpreted historically - and thus, it was already a bit of fantasy on your part in how you argued. But it is what it is....for arguments via assertion do not address scripture as it is - nor does bravado in claiming "Well, this is going to play out wrong!!!" prove anything outside of what you wish to assert.

    Anyone can do that...and thus, it'd be good to come back next time if/when having better arguments on scripture :cool: Till then, the thread is not a place for you..
  2. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Anyone speaking on what should happen according to scripture and ignoring the many prophecies in scripture (many of which spoke of specific geographical events and locations) that have yet to occur is not truly dealing with scripture as it was meant to be understood...
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    As I've said carry on in fantasy...you'll get it sooner of later. :thumbsup:
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    As said before, it's already a matter of fantasy when one doesn't address scripture while trying to speak on it/say what others do or don't understand:cool: But everyone's at a different place and some things take time

    That said, unless one really is going to deal with scripture, the thread is not for them or any other comments outside of that for the sake of being respectful.
  5. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    I certainly did address it. That you want to disregard fulfillment is what leads to erroneously understanding scripture. So let's just see what Syria is in the future...hmmmm???
    So when will you do that?
  6. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

    lately i have been looking into the Muslim middle eastern countries in the bible,
    and noticing that, THAT is where God's wrath falls in the Day of the Lord

    so i am interested in your study

    recently, i have watched a few vid's on youtube
    that seem to describe biblical passages suggesting that
    the Jews themselves are going to war,
    and greatly enlarging their borders, with military might
    before the Day of the Lord

    but after that, during the Day of the Lord, God does the fighting.

    if that is the case, perhaps that is why those folks end up being blessed,
    as they are under the wind of Israel at that time

    it's something i am looking into

    but as for your post, i want to first know what the arrow represents here.
    do u mean to show that Syria was once a country in Arabia, but now that same name is taken by a land north near Israel,
    like Ethiopia of the bible being in the mid east and today's political Ethiopia being in Africa?

  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Again, as you already avoided the scripture on the issue as it concern future prophecy yet to be fulfilled for either Syria or Israel and other nations in the future while trying to argue dogmatically on it all being fulfilled based on prophecies where things did occur - it is a moot point. There's no escaping the basic in Biblical hermeneutics when it comes to realizing where many prophecies made in the MAJOR Prophets were partially fulfilled - some fulfilled completely and others having no Biblical/historical parallel to show that they actually came to pass.....and assuming an event in scripture with the name of an area being destroyed being the same as the area mentioned in another verse is not 100% flawless in claim seeing that chronology of prophecy is a must to address. One cannot take a prophecy on Aram being destroyed - take that to II Kings and say "See!!! Aram was destroyed and this is what Isaiah said would happen" and yet ignore the timing of that prophecy....as to whether it was made AFTER that event in predictive sense (which would be inconsistent since you don't predict the destruction of a place already destroyed) - and how to address where the place was built up and not in line with where prophecy declared that an area would NEVER AGAIN rise....

    Outside of that - your words:

    It's always a good thing to take others at their word - and if one claims they're going to leave something alone/bounce, then cool - one should stay in line with that and know the thread is not for them if the best that occurs is argument via assertion. But if choosing to remain, one should not make claims as you did and give side commentary that does not address the OP and seems to be in the realm of back-&-forth.

    Did already - although you avoided it alongside several other things.

    That said (and this is the last time I will have to note this hopefully) - if you cannot address scripture within the thread, then the thread is not the place for you to be.:cool:
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    My apologies for not being clear..

    But on the issue, what that map was noting was the fact of showing where Syria was located - with the ARROW pointing to that. Nothing more or less...

    On what you noted, if I may suggest...

    There's a great work on the issue that may bless you - by Dr. Tony Maalouf, as seen here and here in Arabs in the Shadow of Israel: The Unfolding of God's ... - Page 56

    "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel: The Unfolding of God's Prophetic Plan for Ishmael's Line.


    In Dr. Tony Maalouf's book, he starts his discussion by noting that before the modern era, Jews and Arabs lived side by side in harmony for centuries. In reality, conflict between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael has been the exception rather than the rule.

    As another noted/summed up wonderfully on the book:
    Arabs were present in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost and no doubt were counted among the 3,000 baptized (At. 2:11, 41). Surprisingly, they were even given priority in the missionary program of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:15-17). And in the future, at the pilgrimage of the Gentile nations to Israel in the Messianic Age, Arabs are first in line to offer their homage (Isa. 60:5-7).

    All this confirms Dr. Maalouf's belief that "the religious fate of biblical Israel as a nation and that of the Arabs" are divinely and inextricably linked (p. 223). Accordingly, "this should create among Christians [in the West] a desperate burden to refrain from political agendas and invest in the spiritual awakening predicted among both the Arabs and Jews" (p. 223). Indeed, by "[r]emoving unwarranted biases against Arabs, which neither the Bible nor history sustains, [we can] play a healing role in the Middle East conflict" (p. 223). May it be so!

    Concerning the book, what was mentioned on Isaiah 60:6-7 was highly interesting seeing how Isaiah was speaking in that chapter on how God's light will shine on Israel, who will radiate his light to the nations and dispell darkness of the surrounding world.....and the places mentioned in Isaiah 60:6-7 belonged to obscure tribes in the Arabian desert hundreds of miles from Israel.

    In many ways, what occurred with Issac being chosen to give birth to the Messiah is akin to a director of a play choosing someone to play the star role. The person chosen cannot boast as if they in/of themselves are simply better than everyone else....for their role was given to them by the director at his own desire. He could have easily chosen someone else, just as the Lord made clear in Deuteronomy 9:3-8 when saying that Israel's righteousness is not the casue of its being given the land. As it stands, the Israelites were so stubborn/stiffnecked that they rarely upheld their end of the bargain that God had made with them (Genesis 15, Genesis 17, Exodus 19-20)---though God had promised to be faithful to them and would always be faithful to his part. For it was all about God's story/His desires. And in any play/story, a drama must have multiple parts to be successful...such as having a deuteragonist (second most important character, after the protagonist and before the tritagonist..and one who may switch from being with or against the protagonist depending on the deuteragonist's own conflict/plot). One also must have background characters---such as those who are a foil, supporting character, minor characters who have small roles and yet without them the story cannot go on.

    With Ishmael, in many ways they could be seen as the secondary characters in the play God designed for His glory....for their part was what made the role of the primary character possible. Techincally, Ishmael would be the third most important character whereas Israel was the Secondary and Jesus the Messiah is the main/central character who all other roles support. With Ishamael, they could be seen as Issac'ss Older brother that would always ensure Israel develop properly for the calling that the Lord had given them in bringing forth the Messiah....just as older brothers often train their siblings indirectly through rites of passage, fighting, competition, tough love and oversight when others try to mess with their siblings. God seemed to have this in mind when it came to His care for Hagar and the love for Ishmael by Abraham.......as even when brothers fight or have distance, they don't stop being brothers.

    Genesis 17:20 and 21:20 characterize God's involvement with Ishmael as divine providence, a special kind of common grace granted to the other seed of Abraham (Gen. 21:13). The Lord's proclamation of Ishmael becoming a wild donkey of a man is more proof of blessing, as the wild donkey metaphor is better understood in light of passages like Job 39:5-8. Donkeys in that culture were the equivalent of what the American Bald Eagle is to the U.S.A..as they're respected animals/symbols of power ...a freedomloving creature and a wilderness wanderer. This is an apt image of what Ishmael and his descendants were later to become—Bedouin nomads, free from the yoke of domination.

    The central point of the Ishmael promises is the divine guarantee that Ishmael would become “a great nation” (Gen. 17:20; 21:13,18; 25:12-18). We need to note here that the biblical term “nation” (Heb. goy) is not restricted to a single ethnic entity; it also contains political overtones with multi-ethnic implications. D. Block, for example, points out that the term is used for bedouin-type desert tribes and multi-ethnic imperial states like Babylon (1986:492).

    The “promise” was Christ; the genealogical line through which the promise would come was from Abraham through Isaac, Jacob, etc. Yet it is written that “they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7)

    The phrase “God was with…” is used only four other times in the Bible, besides its being written of Ishmael, “And God was with the lad…” Cf. 2 Chron 1:1 (of Solomon); 15:9 (of Asa); Acts 7:9 (of Joseph); and 10:38 (of Jesus).

    The phrase “the LORD was with…” is used 17 times, in Genesis 26:28 (of Isaac); 39:2, 3, 21, 23 (of Joseph); Joshua 6:27 (of Joshua); Judges 1:19 (of Judah as a tribe); 22 (of “the house of Joseph); 2:18 (of the judges the LORD raised up); 1 Samuel 3:19 (of Samuel); 18:12, 14, 28 (of David); 1 Chron 9:20 (of Phinehas); 2 Chron 17:3 (of Jehoshaphat); Luke 1:66 (of John the Baptizer); Acts 11:21 (of the saints scattered after the death of Stephen, preaching in Antioch).

    In every instance this term, whether with “God” or “LORD” or “Lord”, indicated that the Almighty was with them as their God and Savior. It is notable this very phrase was used of Ishmael.

    As it concerns the relationship between Israel and Ishmael and how beautiful it is seeing how God used both groups setting the stage for the Messiah - both are "Blood Brothers" and apart of God's plan...and that's something many need to realize.

    As seen in Genesis 16:The promises to Ishmael were four:
    (1) promise of descendants;

    (2) promise of divine attention [God hears and rescues the outcast and the afflicted and will not let them perish],

    (3) promise of a unique character [a wild donkey of a man, a complement--tough, reliable, valued, and suited to the terrain],

    (4) the promise of a divine destiny--antagonism and conflict with everyone, and his brothers will fear him. When the descendants act like the ancestor, they will fulfill this destiny of animosity.
    All of this was due to how Sarai took matters into her own hands by giving her servant girl to Abram, with Abram going along with the plan/refusing to help solve the problem and Hagar running away from the problem initially. In spite of this messy situation, God demonstrated his ability to work all things together for the good (Romans 8:28)---for Sarai and Abram still recieved the son they so desperately wanted while God solved Hagar's problem despite Abram's refusl to get involved. Though Genesis 16:8 shows how Hagar took flight in the direction of Egypt, her homehald, the Angel of the Lod came directly to her and promised she'd have numerous descendants (Genesis 17:20, Genesis 25:12-18)....making clear in Genesis 16:12 that unlike his mother, the son would not need to be servile toward others since he would live a life of hostility toward others. She was impressed by the perceptiveness of God as revealed through his angel-messenger....as seen in the name she gives the Lord calling Him "God of Seeing" (Hb. 'El Ro'i ). As seen later in Genesis 20:8-18, when Ishmael was about 16yrs old (Genesis 21:5-8), the angel of God came back again in light of Hagar being sent away and His intervention saved Hagar, confirming to her that her son would become a great nation...echoing the promise given to Abraham in Genesis 21:18. Indeed, Ishmael because ruler of a large tribe/nation....

    Genesis 21:7-9, Genesis 25:10 and Genesis 28:8-10 / Genesis 28 also deal with the issue. Of course, the issue of Hagar and Ishmael was all in reality an issue that also had a spiritual principle to it----as best seen in Galatians 4:27 . Even then, God's Blessing was for Gentiles as well as for the Jews. He promised Hagar that her son would beget twelve princes who would become a great nation. And later, Ishmael then went to live in the wilderness region of Hejaz in what became known as the Arabian Peninsula, east of where his brother Issac was...and with the Bible and Islamic tradition both agreeing that Ishmael became the leader of all the great desert peoples of the Middle East.

    Many amazing things when it comes to the Arabs...for throughout most of the "dark ages" in the West, the Arabic peoples were the leaders in science and culture--perhaps the greatest of all peoples at that time. Some of it's odd, if seeing the many accounts of those in Arab nations/the accomplishments they've done---as many Arab Nations have had long-standing alliances with the descendants of the Assyrians and the Medes. And when looking at the Arab nations in existence:

    • Lebanon

    • Palestine
    • Jordan

    • Syria

    • Sudan

    • Egypt

    Taking one Arab nation such as Syria, in example, it's already interesting that Christ chose to go there for ministry/do amazing things---as seen in Matthew 4:23-25 Matthew 4 and Mark 7:25-2 Mark 7 ---with Naaman himself being from Syria, as Jesus noted in Luke 4:26-28/Luke 4. Additionally, there are many biblical records there are passages that tell of Solomon’s trading for gold with the Arabs, as well as wars with Arabs by subsequent kings, such as Jehoram and Uzziah, and threats by Arab tribes after the restoration.....but the Arabs--Gentiles are just as blessed as God's People, Israel...and heard on some things.

    And God still has a promise today...

    I was able to come across a video from a conference I went to years ago--.....specifically on Messianic Jews and Arab Christians intercedding with one another for their prosperity as they sought to honor the Lord.

    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  9. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Regarding his challenging the notion of "going to heaven when you die", does he assert the "soul sleep" alternative? If so, only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

    So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

    Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).


    Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they're referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

    So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness ultimately being based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

    A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13).

    Regarding "spending an eternity in some bodiless future", that's definitely not what the Bible teaches. Indeed, believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. The Bible shows that Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection or changing of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

    Also, beware of the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH God as some sort of evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

    And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down out of heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

    So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

    Actually, post-tribulation rapture theology disproves that idea, just as it disproves the pre-tribulation rapture theology in general. For it points out that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

    Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

    At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
  10. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no actual historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

    Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

    Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Just as Matthew 24:2 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD, so Matthew 24:15 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD.

    In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is referring to Daniel 11:31.

    Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

    The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

    Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

    For example, Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.


    Also, regarding the claim (made by some) that Nero's name in Hebrew added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling that adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

    Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers he was addressing at the time Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

    N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
    E /
    R - Reysh = 200
    O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

    C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
    A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
    E /
    S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
    A /
    R - Reysh = 200

    Total = 617


    That view is diametrically opposed to the scriptures. For Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
  11. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Some people feel that Christians mustn't believe in the existence of aliens, for then Christians could be deceived by entities, such as Satan and other fallen angelic beings, claiming to be aliens. But the existence of aliens doesn't require that all aliens must be good, just as the existence of angels doesn't require that all angels must be good. Christians would have to evaluate the goodness of any alien in the same way that they would have to evaluate the goodness of any angel: by the doctrine that he teaches (Galatians 1:8), by his faithfulness to God's Word the Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4; 1 Timothy 4:1, John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4), by his obedience to YHWH God (Mark 12:29-31, Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18b). Also, the Bible doesn't say that Satan appears as a good alien, but it does say that he can appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). So worrying about being deceived only by "aliens" is a dangerous distraction. Christians need to be careful of being deceived even by angels of light.

    Also, some people say that aliens created humans. But the existence of aliens doesn't require that they, instead of God, created humans on this planet. For God himself could have directly created both humans on this planet and aliens on other planets (cf. John 1:3). Also, if someone were to claim that aliens created Adam (the forbear of all existing humans on this planet) instead of YHWH God, that claim would be false, for it would contradict the Bible's teaching that YHWH God himself created Adam (Genesis 2:7).

    Some people feel that the Antichrist's future, one-world religion will teach that Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) is an alien who created humans on this planet. But while the Antichrist's future one-world religion will indeed be Luciferian (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), it will at the same time also be Gnostic, denying that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7) and utterly reviling YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:31). So it wouldn't make sense for this religion to say that Lucifer is an alien who created humans on this planet. For the reason that Gnosticism reviles YHWH is because he is the Creator of all human fleshly bodies. So it would be better for believers not to worry too much about an "alien deception", and start arming themselves against the Gnostic deception, which happened to have also been one of the main enemies of the early church.

    That's right.

    For example, the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be a technologically advanced android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

    Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, that appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

    In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma, G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of supercomputers running advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of neural networks imprinted with the Antichrist's brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether it has consciousness or not, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

    But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's, for it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear to be omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: he could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his machine body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically-everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could just be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

    The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to be able to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every cell phone, television, computer, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer generated image on each individual's cell phone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

    And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they write on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

    And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's cell phone at set times every day to be worshipped. And cell phones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged in order to determine the exact location of the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's cell phone and know exactly where everyone is.

    Also, cell phones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what's going on around the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's cell phone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect that individual's noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of that individual's exact location, and order the officers to arrest that individual for blasphemy and treason. The offending individual could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (i.e. in a brainwashing camp, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

    The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

    Colossal beheading structures could be built, by which twenty "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a huge guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp, that when it's released, it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This all could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions, computers, and web-enabled devices.

    Also, immediately after the show is over, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed into shipping containers, which, once full, could be stacked like stones into a gigantic Pyramid of Death, which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the pyramid that will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is that he didn't, for Adam and Eve were created immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to saved humans through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23.) Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death (Proverbs 8:36b).

    Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

    This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our gracious Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist, to certain members of each "worship group", it could be that some people in each group will start to really get into the evening worship sessions, and even begin to (in their words) "truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

    But the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
  12. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Good point.

    For example, it has been claimed that magnetic fields applied to certain areas of the brain can cause a subject who is alone in a room to sense other human-shaped entities in the room. Materialists could explain this as a magnetically-induced spatial displacement of the subject's mental image of his own body. This might be correct. Or in some cases it could involve a magnetically-induced enhancement of the subject's brain so that he can sense spiritual entities, whether a spatially displaced sense of his own spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23), or a spatially correct sense of an external spiritual entity such as a guardian angel (cf. Acts 12:15b), a fallen angel (Ephesians 6:12), a demon (Mark 5:8), or a ghost (Luke 24:37).

    It's possible that sometime in the future, scientists could magnetically induce something like believers' experience of the Holy Spirit, if by employing functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), scientists are able to find the part of believers' brains which is most active when they're sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they're listening to worship music and worshipping God), and which shows little to no activity when they aren't sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they're listening to a sports talk show). If there is such a part of the brain, scientists could then apply magnetic fields to it while Christian subjects aren't sensing the Holy Spirit, and see if it induces something like a sense of the Holy Spirit in them without any other external stimuli.

    If scientists manage to do this, it could be employed by the coming Antichrist to try to deceive believers, along with the rest of the world, into worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and a speaking image of the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). For what the Antichrist and the False Prophet could do is have scientists fashion small (what they could call) "spiritual reality" devices, like the size of a Bluetooth earpiece, that could be easily worn on the head at all times, and that could generate magnetic fields right over the part of the brain that gives people a similar sense of spiritual assurance of truth that the Holy Spirit gives to believers (John 16:13). And these devices could be remotely activated on people's heads, by cell phone signals, whenever the Antichrist or the False Prophet is speaking to the world their false doctrines, so that the people of the world will get an overwhelming sense that what the Antichrist and False Prophet are saying is the absolute truth.

    Or, if most of the world will have no need of such devices because of the False Prophet's deceiving miracles (Revelation 13:13-14a, Revelation 19:20) and the "strong delusion" sent by God (2 Thessalonians 2:11), the use of the devices could be focused on believers, and any other people, who refuse to follow the Antichrist. Such believers could be arrested and placed in "reform camps" where they will be strapped into chairs and forced to watch long speeches by the Antichrist and the False Prophet while the devices are active on the believers' heads, with the hope that eventually the believers will come to accept the Antichrist based on the "good spiritual feelings" they will get (from the devices) while listening to the speeches.

    It's vital that believers never base any of their doctrinal beliefs only on spiritual feelings (cf. Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12). All doctrines must be checked against what God's Word the Bible teaches (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16). For "the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31b).


    That will happen during the millennium (e.g. Micah 4:4, Isaiah 30:23-26).
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Not really - seeing that one cannot quote what the scripture says on the matter without addressing the whole of it.

    None of those scriptures say what you just claimed - as that's avoiding the actual language of what scripture is about.

    Of course, there'll always be differing views. As said before, there are many Biblical reasons behind why others have noted that the Lord still has things to come. One's eschatological standpoint will make a difference in how that occurs - as there are many schools of thought .....one solid one being Apostolic Premillennialism”..different from other forms of pre-millennialism (and based more so on the Christ Victor view) by it being more optimistic with the end times — more focused on the Apostolic character of the church that is supposed to be coming. ...

    Eschatology makes a world of difference as it concerns the reasons why others choose the views they do.

    For myself, where I grew up, the text of Revelation was always seen as the main text to go by when it came to eschatology - in addition to the scriptures in Ezekiel and others on the temple. Things with Revelation seemed to become more of a focus during the days of books such as "Left Behind" book series and others feeling like they were going to be taken out. And how the reign of Christ over the unjust occurs always seems to shift based on what camp one is from. Some of the differing views in existence when it comes to eschatology - such as Amillennialism - are interesting when it comes to how it sees the reign of Christ in the end......especially from the perspective of other camps present today (as with IHOP and Neo-Charismatic circles that got their evolutionary development from Third Wave groups).

    Amillennialism Beliefs in general:

    • The New Testament church becomes the Israel of God (Gal.6:16).
    • Satan was bound during Jesus' earthly ministry, restraining him while the gospel is being preached in the world (Mt. 12:29; Lk. 10:18, 19).
    • The Kingdom of God is a present reality as the victorious Christ is now ruling His people by His Word and Spirit (Lk. 17:20, 21).
    • The Kingdom of God is essentially redemptive and spiritual in character rather than political and physical (Jn. 18:36).
    • The millennium (and the "first resurrection") in Rev. 20:4-6 describes the present reign of the souls of deceased believers with Christ in heaven (Hoekma).
    • The millennium is the period between the two comings of Christ, or, more strictly, between the return of the ascended Son to glory, his mission to earth completed, and the loosing of Satan 'for a little while' (Hughes).
    • In contrast to postmillennialism, amillennialists do not believe that the Scripture predicts a golden age in the world prior to Christ's return.
    • There will be a progressive maturation of the forces of, both, good and evil (Mt. 13:24-30, 37-43, 47-50). (agrees with premillennialism)
    • A time of great apostasy will be experienced immediately prior to Christ's return (Rev. 20:7, 8).
    • Some amillennialists believe the apostasy will be led by "the Antichrist", while other amillennialists, noting that the word "Antichrist" fails to occur in Revelation, believe that the "Beast" of Revelation was a contemporary of John's day (Rev. 13:11-18).
    • Although the kingdom of God is a present reality, Amillennialists also look forward to a future, glorious, and kingdom that is perfected for eternity at the return of Christ (Hoekma).
    • Christ will return and resurrect all people at the same time (Jn. 5:25-30).
    • The general judgment will follow.
    • The new heaven and new earth will be established for all eternity.
    With Postmillennialism:
    • The New Testament church becomes the Israel of God (Gal.6:16). (agrees with Amillennialism)
    • The Kingdom of God is a present reality. (agrees with Amillennialism)
    • The Kingdom of God is essentially redemptive and spiritual in character rather than political and physical. (agrees with Amillennialism)
    • The Holy Spirit will gradually bring about a period of virtual triumph of true Christianity before Christ returns. (opposes Amillennialism)
    • The millennium will close with the second coming of Christ. (agrees with Amillennialism)
    • The Resurrection will be general--all people at the same time. (agrees with Amillennialism)
    • The general judgment will follow. (agrees with Amillennialism)
    • Then the eternal kingdom will begin. (agrees with Amillennialism)
    While it is true that most postmillennialists look forward to a 'golden age', a period of spiritual prosperity, this does not mean that every person will be a Christian or that all sin will be abolished (Boettner, Loraine. The Millennium. Grand Rapids, Baker Book House, 1958). This period of spiritual prosperity comes about gradually "as an increasingly larger proportion of the world's inhabitants are converted to Christianity." Many have often noted how that plays out when it comes to the church age itself seeing eras where literally the ENTIRE world was Christian Dominated----from the era of Constantine in the Roman Empire (which GREATLY gave power to the church/set the stage for future developments) to what occurred with Christianity in Eastern lands....and to some degree, what has occurred with things such as the time of the Maritime exploration when nearly all of the great kingdoms of that time (i.e. Portugal, Spain, Britain, etc) were "Christian." Some may debate whether that'd be valid since many things done in the name of Christ were anti-Christ/against the scriptures...but there was dominance nonetheless in Christ's name.

    The belief in Amillennialism or Preterism also called Victorious eschatology is part and parcel of Dominionist Theology. Amillennialists believes that we are living in the millennial era and Jesus reigns spiritually from heaven. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D means that all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled – especially the Book of Revelation. Amillennialists can claim the earth and must dominate by instilling Christian principles and a moral code which will create a Christian society so that Jesus can manifest His presence one day and judge the wicked. However, Dominionists can claim the earth and must dominate by instilling Christian principles and a moral code which will create a Christian society so that Jesus can manifest His presence and rule the world.

    As one of my brothers said best (for brief excerpt):
    It is the opinion of all Amil’s that a post-millennial eschatological framework (in which they interpret the O.T texts) is insufficient in that it does not seem to be sensitive enough to the two eschatological ages of the N.T. Clearly, N.T does not teach the Post Mill view of a gradual removal of the temporal effects of sin and evil. Nor does it see the victory of the gospel in terms of social, economic and political transformation. Rather, the N.T maintains the eschatological tension between the two ages so that “this age” (Rom 12:2) and its evil implications is antithetical to the age to come when Christ returns to consummate all things. Instead of a gradual transformation, the N.T teaches a cataclysmic end to Satan Kingdom (it will be crushed – not slowly squeezed see Dan 2:44; Matt 13:39-40; Rom 16:20; Rev 19:11ff) then, and only then we will hear the voices from heaven declare “the Kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.” (Rev 13:15). Having said that, I am a positive A-Millennialist, and I want to argue that the Kingdom will advance during this age, however, I do not see the issue turning on the betterment of evil in this present age, but rather in the gathering of the elect (plundering of the strong man’s home see Mk 3:27) through the proclamation of the Gospel until all the elect are gathered into the Kingdom and then the Lord will return and will crush Satan and his Kingdom forever (Consummation).
    It will also begin in our times when it comes to the Church being the Church - as noted earlier in scripture
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    That is a bit of a false argument - seeing that the devil wasn't always referred to as an "angel of light" and there were differing ways to describe him, seeing that others worshiped angels in the time of the Apostles (Colossians 2) due to their theological stances of gods/goddesses - and in our time, others do the same. Others have already noted how many "alien encounters" they had were in the "angel of light" realm due to them seeking them out for council or guidance - and thus, claiming it is a dangerous distraction is in/of itself a bit of a distraction to how others are already deceived.

    Doesn't mean all forms of aliens are false - but on the issue, I do think people have to walk in discernment.

    For more:

    Michael Heiser has done some really good work on the issue, as he made a book that was a story essentially meant to be a social critique of the future. The book is entitled The Facade.


    How would you respond to the news that life exists elsewhere in the universe? More to the point, how would your view of the Bible change if ET landed on the White House lawn tomorrow? Or if an ET landed noting that the stories of Giants/mythological gods from antiquity were really them? Those questions are central to the plot of The Facade by Dr. Michael Heiser, academic editor for Logos Bible Software and a scholar of Biblical Hebrew and ancient Israelite and Egyptian history. He’s also a well-regarded ufologist, and he manages to bring those seemingly diverse areas of study together in the special edition of The Facade. In his work, he discusses the evidence for contact, how the U.S. government appears to be preparing for a disclosure event, and why Christians believe the abductee phenomenon has a spiritual goal. For more background on Mike’s thinking on this issue, see his series, “Fundamentalists and ET”. Additionally, one can click here for the PDF chart comparing the experiences of abductees with those of ritual abuse survivors...and they can go here as well VFTB 109: Why the Nephilim? 6 as it concerns discussion on why others feel that you'll see more of a discussion on the return of the Nephilim.​

    Heiser has done some amazing workin other areas as well. With the help of respected ancient language expert and Bible scholar, Dr. Michael Heiser, Chris White has produced a three-hour film, Ancient Aliens Debunked (available to watch online for free — click here), that is a must-see for anyone who’s ever wondered about the pyramids, ancient megaliths, the Nazca Lines, the Annunaki, Ezekiel’s Wheel, or any number of other apparent historical anomalies. It goes a long way in showing how much people are being prepared for things as part of massive deception. In many ways, crediting the existence of giants and other ancient actions to alien life can be seen as the product of fallen angels who want to harvest human souls...and radical action — imposition of an Old Testament form of morals and dogma on a planetary scale — is needed to save humanity from a hellish end.​

    A lot of sci-fi movies focusing on alien life started to get more developed in the 80s/90s and went from there - from E.T Extraterrestial to the StarTrek Films based on the hit series, StarWars, Aliens, Predator, Invasion of the Body Snatchers and a host of others. Independence Day was really a smash hit that got a lot of people thinking - and from there, Men in Black followed...alongside others such as "The Faculty" and a lot of other ones.

    The world of comics also was a big push into alien life being accepted as normal - in addition to seeing Christ as another being amongst many.

    Shows like "The X-Files" and "Outer Limits" started to take the UFO/Alien aspects and make them very dark - and interestingly enough, did you know that witches actually were hired to come in and pray for X-FIles episodes to be successful? Tripped me out learning of that...as I used to watch that show occasionally and it always used to freak me out. Never felt right with me..

    Of course, what's interesting is that once the early 2000s hit, you started to see a BIG rise in UFO Movies that began to be VERY occultic. I'm reminded of films like where people who were being contacted by aliens started to act as if they were being possessed - floating around the room and people blaming hauntings on Alien encounters. And when studying folks like Alexander Crowley and others, they actually noted the SAME things on UFOs being demonically based in nature. Films such as "The FOurth Kind" come to mind. In one scene of the film, the extraterrestrials have the power to temporarily possess people and one of the main characters, trying to get the aliens to hand over her abducted daughter, allows herself to be hypnotized, giving the aliens access to her body. While she hollers at the visitors to let her daughter go, they tell her—through her own mouth—they plan to do no such thing. Though the translation is garbled, the indication is that they’re all-powerful beings who can do whatever they want. They are the "savior," "father" and "God."

    It's not an accident by any means....and one can go even further with that/see the ways that folks have even taken things to mean that UFOs were behind how the Bible/God and Yeshua came into existence - with the angelic and Yeshua simply being higher evolved beings. Prometheus is one of the many films out promoting the UFO alien theology view..

    One man, who was involved in the Occult/FreeMasonry, actually shared in-depth on the matter and discussed the ways things tied together:

    Bill Schnoebelen- UFOs, Masonry & Satanism Occult Connection

    It's by Rev. William "Bill" James Schnoebelen (born August 24, 1949), who is an American Messianic Christian apologist, author, teacher and lecturer. He is best known as a strong critic of Mormonism, Freemasonry and Wicca.

    Again - the argument isn't really full-proof since what occurs in New Age is that Jesus HAS NOT come in the flesh (as it concerns the concept of transdimensional beings and others having a physical representation that's an illusion for their non-corporeal reality). It makes more than enough sense when it comes to the fact that Lucifer desires to be worshiped and seen as the focus rather than Christ - with that being present (II Thessalonians 3)

    Most don't have a clue on what is actually taught in the New Age when it comes to the worship of aliens as the Creators - claiming God himself was really an alien and that Jesus himself was not really God in the flesh ...but one of them trying to bring humanity to his level of IQ.
  15. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    Oriental Orthodox
    Letting you know upfront that this example of post is really the last of its kind that I'd would like in the thread since it really doesn't pertain to the OP. Although I didn't have a problem with the mini-tangents in the beginning on the End Times after I sought to address it and enjoy discussion on the issue, it's not really the focus of the OP and I'd ask that other threads be started to go into more-depth on the issue.:)

    Wouldn't even have to be that necessarily - as technology is but one means.

    It could also be a matter of illusion and others literally seeing things in terms of visions.

    There is an agenda going on - and others prepared to accept things that really are not true and that often do not point to Christ.

    Of course, what people often credit to "aliens" I think can easily be seen as angelic influences - which are another lifeform and capable of interacting with things in our world. As said elsewhere, it certainly is not outside of the realm of the demonic to make things occur - just as many have often noted that it was not outside of the realm of fallen angels/Watchers to teach man a great number of things way ahead of their time or for man to do technological feats that still baffle others today and that seem to have only be possible with supernatural help...from the pyramids to giant symbols of figures carved in the ground as if from an aerial point of view....as if the angelic was looking down/helping others dictate things.

    In an isolated valley, high in the Andes Mountains of Central Peru, dozens of lines have been waiting thousands of years to be discovered. But what sets these lines apart from many other anthropoligical etchings is that they can only be truly appreciated from an airborne perspective! The Nazca lines are legendary. Stretching across 400 square miles of high arid plateau are drawings of hundreds of figures. They range from giant spiders to vast geometric shapes to enormous monkeys as large as 890ft, or roughly the size two and a half football fields. Hummingbirds, fish, sharks or orcas, llamas, and lizards — and according to some, astronauts, aliens and landing zones — are all represented in these enormous line drawings. Although, as said before, it could easily be the angelic/fallen ones trying to get men to worship them and steal the role of God Almighty in the lives of his creation...



    There are other versions of these things elsewhere - such as in the Middle East. They stretch from Syria to Saudi Arabia, can be seen from the air but not the ground, and are virtually unknown to the public. They are the Middle East’s own version of the Nazca Lines — ancient “geolyphs,” or drawings, that span deserts in southern Peru — and now, thanks to new satellite-mapping technologies, and an aerial photography program in Jordan, researchers are discovering more of them than ever before. They number well into the thousands. Referred to by archaeologists as “wheels,” these stone structures have a wide variety of designs, with a common one being a circle with spokes radiating inside. Researchers believe that they date back to antiquity, at least 2,000 years ago. They are often found on lava fields and range from 82 feet to 230 feet (25 meters to 70 meters) across. And for more, one can go here to see gallery of wheel structures

    It was either the case that such people making those designs had a form of media in ancient times we do not yet know of - or perhaps the angelic/spiritual beings above were literally using their abilities to brodcast images of what they wanted others to have on their minds and write down in memory....and if that could happen then, I don't see any reason to think the same can't happen today.

    That said - on the rest of what you said, again although I didn't have a problem with the mini-tangents in the beginning on the End Times after I sought to address it, it's not really the focus of the OP and I'd ask that other threads be started to go into more-depth on the issue.:)
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  16. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Per your request, a new thread has been started, titled "Other topics from the 'Syria & Israel' thread, and beyond".

    Replies to your posts 33-34 are in the new thread.