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Featured Synergism, semi pelagianism etc.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by dms1972, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I distinguish semi-pelegianism from synergism in this way - in semi-pelegianism people are able to take the initiative towards God, before he has reached out to them. In synergism, God must take the initiative but we are then able to co-operate and finish the work, salvation is thus the work of both God and man.

    Ok what about this, if a person believes they contributed in no way to God sending his Son to earth, that they contributed in no way to Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Yet they believe they can take first steps to God, or in other words if they believe that in the application or reception of salvation they can make the first move, is that still semi-Pelagianism?
     
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  2. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    Sorry, I'd say it is. :)

    It is the Holy Spirit who calls, works faith and regenerates people. We add nothing.
     
  3. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    Then you would have to believe in Calvinism.
     
  4. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    Nope!

    Lutherans are neither Calvinistic nor Arminian. This is a Reformed, Presbyterian and Anglican debate and categorisation.

    Lutherans are monergists when it comes to salvation, but not on damnation. Basically, the Lutheran Church teaches that salvation is entirely from God. Damnation is entirely from man. This is what Scripture asserts, therefore this is what we confess. We don't explain scientifically how; it's a holy mystery and only apprehended through faith, not reason.
     
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  5. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    I once was lost and then I was found. So I smile at the sheep who were lost and found the shepherd. :rolleyes:
     
  6. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    However, it presumes the idea of once saved always saved, and I know that Lutherans don't believe in that; however; it is the same reasoning Evangelicals give: not admitting God predestines people to hell, but someone God makes people saved all by himself, which will require people staying saved.
     
  7. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd be interested to hear what people think of the view of theologian Donald G. Bloesch, he writes:

    "While Luther was much closer to biblical truth than was Erasmus in their celebrated debate over free will, he nevertheless went too far in his Bondage of the Will when he portrayed the sinner as a helpless automaton in the hands of either God or the devil. Luther was indeed right to uphold the sovereignty of grace in our redemption, but he was wrong in espousing a monergism of grace. Grace alone saves from sin, but grace makes us active in responding to the offer of salvation, and apart from this response salvation is not yet realised. The biblical position is neither monergism (in which God does all) nor synergism (in which God does part and we do part) but the paradox that God does all - but in and through human effort - and that we do all - in and through divine grace. God's grace precedes, arouses and acts within human decision in order to accomplish its goal. Apart from grace we are severely disadvantaged because of the all-pervasive corrupting impact of sin in human life, but we are still responsible for our deliberations and actions. Grace brings us both divine pardon and the power to believe and obey. Divine grace works an ontological change within us, but we are then moved by the Spirit to ratify and confirm God's regenerating work, thereby bringing his salvific plan for our lives to completion."
     
  8. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

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    Many Christians admit that God gives grace, but they believe the sinner is the initiator from beginning to end. However, if God gives strength and ability in response to man's need, then man does not really need that grace. Man is fully capable of coming to God and doing what is right on his own. All he needs from God is a little nudge in the right direction. But this is not consistent with the Bible which describes men as dead in sin. And describes salvation as man being made alive by that same power God used when He raised Jesus from the dead. Ephesians 1:19-20
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It would seem Bloesch should keep reading the works of Luther.
     
  10. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    You must first be invited and the only first steps you can take are to ask and then you will receive.

    Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

    Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

    1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

    1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

    2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

    1 Corinthians 1:9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 
     
  11. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So a person has to respond while the Holy Spirit is working on them? If they don't and try to come later (saying a prayer) that's not a true conversion?

    When does the calling / drawing of the Holy Spirit take place, is it only in church services, or can it take place outside of that?
     
  12. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    May I ask why do you say that, your comment is a bit cryptic. Why should Bloesch (who is deceased btw) have kept reading the works of Luther?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  13. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    The Lutheran Church teaches that salvation, from beginning to end, is the work of God. It is secured and effected on account of God's own promise, the person and works of Jesus Christ and the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Faith, produced by the Holy Spirit, comes through hearing or reading the Word of God, specifically, the Gospel. This is not limited to a church service, although church is certainly the primary place where God's Word can be found, inasmuch as the church is tasked to uphold and proclaim God's Word in all purity, truth and faithfulness.

    We hold that, just as a dead man cannot work, choose or will himself to life, neither can the spiritually dead man work, choose or will himself to life. We are dead in sin, but God brings us to life. Consider also Christ's words that we must be born again. Who can work, choose or will himself to be born? No one. We are born. Salvation is a gift. From beginning to end, it is God's grace.
     
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  14. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your second sentence I am struggling to understand, can you elaborate further : "However, if God gives strength and ability in response to man's need, then man does not really need that grace."
     
  15. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Amen!
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Luther's writings do not support the "sinner as a helpless automaton in the hands of either God or the devil." Bloesch also got monergism partially correct, which means he draws erroneous conclusions on a partial knowledge. Which is common for theologians who deny the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the repentant sinner.
     
  17. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

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    Thank you for pointing it out. I can see that I stated it quite poorly.
    The idea is this:
    Luther's position is that unregenerate men are incapable of exercising saving faith apart from the enablement of God's gift of faith.
    God gives faith first, then it is exercised by the recipient. Not vice versa. No one exercises faith without this gift or grace of faith. Otherwise, why give faith to one who already possesses it?
     
  18. James Murphy

    James Murphy New Convert To Lutheranism

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    In fairness, it's easy to get that impression from reading "Bondage Of The Will". That's not the only thing Luther wrote, though, and I think it would have behooved Bloesch to read Luther's other work for clarification.
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    That was my point. If Bloesch was a theologian then he should have known better. What was quoted by Bloesch is something you see at the Catholic Answers site "Luther said this..." and it goes downhill from there.
     
  20. James Murphy

    James Murphy New Convert To Lutheranism

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    LOL I still have an account there :p
     
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