Survey: Most Americans Believe You Do Not Need God to be Good

timothyu

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Are you saying it is impossible and unacceptable for a functioning society to judge crimes.
Self justification gets in the way. A society that condemns murder can also glorify killing in a war even as recently as ones over who controls the oil dollar. Justified? We are hardly good judges of what is right or wrong when our inner morals conflict with our desire for gain at the expense of others. Such was the result of the fall.
 
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Halbhh

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What does that have to do with the notion that God's commandment's are good? I can recognize the human value of love without having to claim it's an absolute good.
The commandments are to love. And the detailed commandments, in the new covenant, are about how to love fully. So, if love seems objectively good, then of course it follows even for a non believer then that an instruction "love your neighbor as yourself" is therefore objectively good, in an unqualified sense, though plenty of other instructions are also given to help for complex or troubled situations when we aren't sure how to go.
 
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Ken-1122

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Can you explain why the golden rule is impossible for a functioning society and also why it is unacceptable for a functioning society?
For the most part, the Golden rule is a good rule to follow, but there are situations when it should not be applied. I mean; do you really want a Sadomasochist treating other the way he likes to be treated? Naah!!!
It seems to me that a functioning society must have a rule by which every individual can function within that society. Also, when that rule is violated, for example when you have a serial killer, the society has to deal with that person.
Not just "A" rule, lots of rules; we call those laws.
 
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FireDragon76

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Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It's never that simple. Christians have a arbitrary list of things they considered wrong or immoral, that has nothing to do with "love".
 
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FireDragon76

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The golden rule is not specific to the Christian faith. Treat others the way you want to be treated. I don't understand why it is impossible for an atheist to treat others the way they wish to be treated? Why is it unacceptable to treat others the way you wish to be treated? Every single society has laws, in the US we say "no one is above the law" that is a corollary of the golden rule.

I don't have a problem with the Golden Rule, but it doesn't validate your religion in the way you think it does.
 
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timothyu

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It's never that simple. Christians have a arbitrary list of things they considered wrong or immoral, that has nothing to do with "love".
The Gospel of the Kingdom sums it up quite nicely. Self serving mankind has it backwards. Focus on others rather than self.
 
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ZNP

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I don't have a problem with the Golden Rule, but it doesn't validate your religion in the way you think it does.
I did not realize you were omniscient and knew what I was thinking. For the rest of us that do not know what others are thinking perhaps you could let them know exactly what you are talking about?
 
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ZNP

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For the most part, the Golden rule is a good rule to follow, but there are situations when it should not be applied. I mean; do you really want a Sadomasochist treating other the way he likes to be treated? Naah!!!

Not just "A" rule, lots of rules; we call those laws.
We aren't talking about one twisted individual. You said it was impossible and unacceptable for a functioning society. Is there or has there ever been a functioning society that was a "sadomasochist". What is the principle by which a functioning society should set up their laws?
 
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ZNP

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Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them likewise.


The fundamental issue that the atheists on this thread exhibit is the inability to read and understand this simple sentence. The rule is based on the fact that you want people to treat you a certain way and you want them to respect that.

It is not simply treat people they way you want to. That is a misquote that the atheists are using and then calling it immature, impossible and unacceptable. This is not the rule in the Bible and when they quote it they misquote it.

This rule states clearly that you want people to respect your wishes in how they treat you, therefore you also must respect their wishes in how you treat them.

Atheist Play book

Step 1 -- Misquote the rule

Step 2 -- Using your misquote build your bogus case.

This rule hinges on the fact that every person desires to be respected. Therefore if you wish others to respect your wishes in how you are treated it is incumbent on you to respect their wishes on how you treat them (as long as it isn't sinful).
 
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FireDragon76

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I did not realize you were omniscient and knew what I was thinking. For the rest of us that do not know what others are thinking perhaps you could let them know exactly what you are talking about?

The Golden Rule is a moral axiom. That's far different than the contents of the 10 Commandments. In fact, the Golden Rule isn't even found in the Ten Commandments.
 
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FireDragon76

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No.

The 10 Commandments are about regulating human behavior in a covenant relationship with YHWH. If you don't accept the existence of YHWH or the validity of his covenant, they have no moral weight. The same is not true with the Golden Rule, which is arguably valid in a generalized sense (though as @Caliban noted, it's not without problems when it comes to specifics).
 
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ZNP

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No.

The 10 Commandments are about regulating human behavior in a covenant relationship with YHWH. If you don't accept the existence of YHWH or the validity of his covenant, they have no moral weight. The same is not true with the Golden Rule, which is arguably valid in a generalized sense (though as @Caliban noted, it's not without problems when it comes to specifics).
The golden rule is the spirit in which the 10 commandments operate. The last five are focused on our relationship with man. All 5 are consistent with the golden rule.

Caliban's issues with the golden rule have been debunked. Since being debunked he has hid and not returned to this thread he started.
 
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Ken-1122

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We aren't talking about one twisted individual. You said it was impossible and unacceptable for a functioning society. Is there or has there ever been a functioning society that was a "sadomasochist". What is the principle by which a functioning society should set up their laws?
I'm not talking about 1 person, I'm talking about many cases when it would be wrong to enforce the golden rule.
 
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FireDragon76

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But the 10 C's are found in the two commandments of Jesus.

That's religious dogma but it remains unproven as far as I'm concerned. After all, would Jesus really countenance regarding women as property, as the Commandments do?
 
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FireDragon76

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The golden rule is the spirit in which the 10 commandments operate.

Rhetoric used to preach to the choir. I don't have to accept it as true, and in my experience, Christians that claim to follow the Ten Commandments are no more morally upright than anybody else.

The last five are focused on our relationship with man. All 5 are consistent with the golden rule.

I fail to see how regarding women as property is anything but a relic from a barbaric past.
 
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ZNP

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I'm not talking about 1 person, I'm talking about many cases when it would be wrong to enforce the golden rule.
give me an example.

Also this is a new wrinkle, "enforce the golden rule" (prior to this the discussion was focused on a standard measure of "good")
 
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ZNP

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That's religious dogma but it remains unproven as far as I'm concerned. After all, would Jesus really countenance regarding women as property, as the Commandments do?
Which of the 10 commandments is that?
 
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ZNP

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Rhetoric used to preach to the choir. I don't have to accept it as true, and in my experience, Christians that claim to follow the Ten Commandments are no more morally upright than anybody else.
Therefore I also don't have to accept your claims as true. I have not made any claim that Christians are more morally upright than anyone else. That is an excellent example of a straw man, you have inserted your own pathetic argument, claimed it is mine, and then will do battle with the straw man to defeat it. Another really pathetic play from the Atheist playbook.
I fail to see how regarding women as property is anything but a relic from a barbaric past.
I fail to see which of the 10 commandments says that. Which one is it?
 
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