Surah 4:89-90.

[UberLutheran]

Actually, the Lutherans in my area are loyal to Norway. Not quite sure how they're a threat, but man, that lutefisk, that is definately an incideious plot against the american people if there ever was one.

Catholics have Purgatory. Lutherans have lutefisk. Catholics definitely got the better part of the deal...

 

[rahma]

Then why don't you and all the other Muslims go live in the Middle-East?

Because it is easiest to be a muslim in the US then it is to be in any "muslim" country. That is why most reformers are based in the UK and the US. If I'm going to overthrow the Saudi government, I can't live there. If I'm going to overthrow Mubarak, I can't live there, as he just threw 3 british muslims in jail for being part of an Islamist organization.

 

[Ikaria]

Then why don't you and all the other Muslims go live in the Middle-East?

Bad ricochet from the stray bullet.

I've reported your post.

 

[Ikaria]

It's a rather dense read, but luckly he sumarizes a lot of important terms and concepts in the beginning. It's relatively new, so your local library probably doesn't have it yet. However, I can suggest a few that your library may have:

Qur'an Liberation and Pluralism by Farid Esack. He was one of the leading Muslim leaders against apartheid in south africa. Kind of the Desmond Tutu of the South African Muslim community (although he makes people mad. I usually like authors that make people mad, but in a respectful way).

Anything by Khaled Abou El Fadl. He is classically trained, but also has a secular education in the west. He is banned in Saudi Arabia.
Books by him -
Speaking in God's Name
And God Knows the Soldiers: The Authoritative and Authoritarian in Islamic Discourses
The Place of Tolerance in Islam
Islam and the Challenge of Democracy : A Boston Review Book
Democracy and Islam in the New Constitution of Afghanistan


Autobiography of Malcolm X

Taking Back Islam: American Muslims Reclaim Their Faith edited by Michael Wolfe

And if you want anything more theological, look into lectures and books by Hamza Yusuf.

Thanks!

 

[stray bullet]

Bad ricochet from the stray bullet.

I've reported your post.

Ikaria, there was nothing offensive about my post, although I can see how one might misinterpret it as 'get out of the west', but that certainly wasn't the case.

I find it strange to see someone advocating the reduction of pluralism, while at the same time contributing to it. As you can see from her post, she took it the correct way and answered my question

 

[The Prophetess]

Cheers.

Let's fight the good fight, spread the love and increase the peace!

Go Ikky! Spread the peace and increase the love d00d.

 

[tulc]

It appears to me that the very commentary you cite demonstrates CLEARLY how dangerous muslims are- by the words of the commentary they see themselves as a Nation and not as a Faith Community.

Kind of like Christians who see this world not as their home? You know neither Jew nor Greek? A lot of Christians now a days have lost sight of how outside this world we are to be. Our Kingdom is not of this world. Just a thought.
tulc(hey rahma still sloggin away at those books are you?)

 

[Ikaria]

Ikaria, there was nothing offensive about my post, although I can see how one might misinterpret it as 'get out of the west', but that certainly wasn't the case.

Well, I certainly hope not but your posting history does lead me to that kind of conclusion.

I find it strange to see someone advocating the reduction of pluralism, while at the same time contributing to it.

Eh?

As you can see from her post, she took it the correct way and answered my question

She answers people politely no matter what they say, so this is no indication that she didn't take offence.

 

[mikefromwichita]

Furthermore, Islamics, as I understand it, view their "nation" in the same way as many Christians view their fellowship with other Christians. Just because Islamics happened to use a different word doesn't change the underlying meaning.

The underlying meaning as demonstrated by ACTIONS is the muslims routinely KILL people for disloyalty to the Nation of Islam and believe that their Nation has a god given duty to conqyuer the world by force of arms.

 

[mikefromwichita]

Kind of like Christians who see this world not as their home?......................

.............and to you have a point here beyond objecting to the non-PC truth that islam is a dangerous system of believe that the People of the West would be very wise to suppress to the greatest extent possible?

 

[mikefromwichita]

We all know that Jews swear allegiance to Israel.

Yep and Jonathan Pollard is sitting in Fed Prison as a reward for his Traitorous loyalty to Israel. certainly ANY jew(with USA Citizenship) who places the interests of Israel above those of America is to be condemned.


[/QUOTE]
We all know that Roman Catholics swear allegiance Rome. [/QUOTE]

Do we really??????? Heck from where I sit the Pope can't even control most of his flock in regard to birth control or divorce.


[/QUOTE]
Anglicans swear allegiance to England. The Queen of England is the head of the Anglican church, therefore, Anglicans are not TRUE Americans.[/QUOTE]

Really That must be why all those Anglicans signed the declaration of Indepedence.


[/QUOTE]
Lutherans swear allegiance to Germany, and Germany wouldn't even support President Bush when he invaded a sovereign country, Iraq, on false pretenses! By golly, we're the UNITED STATES and we can go wherever we want, invade whomever we want, and nobody had better try to STOP US. The fact that Germany would not support OUR PRESIDENT shows that Lutherans are not REAL Americans![/QUOTE]

YAWN............................


[/QUOTE]
And what about those Spanish-speakers down in Texas, Florida, New Mexico, Arizona, and California? We all KNOW their allegiance is to Cuba and Mexico.[/QUOTE]

In many cases this is in fact true and there should be some tight restrictions placed on further Hispanic immigration to the USA with deportation of illegals being a top priority. GWB's failure to control the Borders has tainted his entire Presidency.


[/QUOTE]
We just got finished "celebrating" St. Patrick's Day -- a day to honor the people of IRELAND (a liberal Roman Catholic haven) [/QUOTE]

Paddies who front for NORAID are in fact supporters of terrorism who are targeted by the Feds.


The bottom line is that no matter how this offends your PC sensibilities islam is a threat to the rest of the world in exact proportion to the strength it can muster. For 1000 years the west was under constant islamic attack until we developed the overwhelming technological and economic strength to keep them suppressed. Your wish to dismantle that quarantine places us all at risk.

 

[tulc]

and to you have a point here beyond objecting to the non-PC truth that islam is a dangerous system of believe that the People of the West would be very wise to suppress to the greatest extent possible?

Lets analyze this OK?

and to you have a point

I thought the point was obvious: Christians think of themselves (and rightly so) as one nation. Don't you feel oppressed when Christians in China are persecuted? Does that mean Christianity should be suppressed because we see ourselves as bigger then any one nation?

beyond objecting to the non-PC truth

So anyone with an opinion different from you is just being PC? and

that islam is a dangerous system of believe that the People of the West would be very wise to suppress to the greatest extent possible?

this is in no way, shape, or form "truth". One reason to protect Islam and Muslims is it is in our own interest to protect other peoples rights. We are only free to express our beliefs because others are allowed also. When we start suppressing others I know my neck is on the line also.
I think that was pretty much what I was trying to say. Just a thought.
tulc(thinking about coffee and human rights it's a good Saturday!)

 

[tulc]

Thought of two quotes:

You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's
freedom. You can only be free if I am.
- Clarence Darrow

When the rights of even one human being are held in contempt the rights of
all are in danger. We cannot destroy the liberties of others without losing our own.
-Robert Green Ingersoll

tulc(quotehound!)

 

[mikefromwichita]

Lets analyze this OK? I thought the point was obvious:

Christians think of themselves (and rightly so) as one nation. Don't you feel oppressed when Christians in China are persecuted? [/QUOTE]

Sorry my Nation is the USA, the Church is my FAITH. That means folks are not to be shot for Treason if they depart the Church. try departing from Islam & see what happens.

[/QUOTE] So anyone with an opinion different from you is just being PC? [/QUOTE]

The excuses that have been bandied around as to how muslims are 'just folks' since 9/11 are PC nuttiness at its extreme. A person cannot be both a 'good' muslim AND a loyal American. Native birn Americans who convert to islam as adults in particular are high potential security risks who should be monitored closely.

[/QUOTE]One reason to protect Islam and Muslims is it is in our own interest to protect other peoples rights. [/QUOTE]

A statement that is PC to the core. There is no upside for our own freedoms in protecting islam's ability to propagate. As islam grows it destroys all it touches, that is the lesson of history. our own freedom is best protected by realising that islam will gladly use the openess of our society to destroy us. that is best avoided by eliminating the islamic presence here over time and the first step in that direction is an end to muslim immigration to these shores.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The excuses that have been bandied around as to how muslims are 'just folks' since 9/11 are PC nuttiness at its extreme. A person cannot be both a 'good' muslim AND a loyal American. Native birn Americans who convert to islam as adults in particular are high potential security risks who should be monitored closely.

Well, since you can't be a good Muslim and a loyal american, you're still advocating removing all Muslims from this country?

A statement that is PC to the core. There is no upside for our own freedoms in protecting islam's ability to propagate. As islam grows it destroys all it touches, that is the lesson of history. our own freedom is best protected by realising that islam will gladly use the openess of our society to destroy us. that is best avoided by eliminating the islamic presence here over time and the first step in that direction is an end to muslim immigration to these shores.

How are the Muslim business owners that I know in Wichita destroying anything? Or are you just making sweeping generalizations again?

 

[theeyesoftammyfaye]

Sorry my Nation is the USA, the Church is my FAITH. That means folks are not to be shot for Treason if they depart the Church. try departing from Islam & see what happens.

i'd like to clarify your post. in general, when someone refers to a "nation" they are talking about a collection of beliefs, customs, culture, and religion. nations sometimes follow state boundaries, but oftentimes don't. example: japan is a great example of a nation having basically the same boundary as the state. however, in africa, nations are often spread through 2 or 3 countries, as the europeans drew up that boundaries, neglecting tribal affiliation, etc. so when someone says "nation" (hopefully!) what they are talking about is their culture and religion and sometimes ethnicity. i think this might help shed light on what was meant.

 

[rahma]

i'd like to clarify your post. in general, when someone refers to a "nation" they are talking about a collection of beliefs, customs, culture, and religion. nations sometimes follow state boundaries, but oftentimes don't. example: japan is a great example of a nation having basically the same boundary as the state. however, in africa, nations are often spread through 2 or 3 countries, as the europeans drew up that boundaries, neglecting tribal affiliation, etc. so when someone says "nation" (hopefully!) what they are talking about is their culture and religion and sometimes ethnicity. i think this might help shed light on what was meant.

Very good. There is a different between nation and nation state. My nation states are America and Egypt. My nation is Islam (not to be confused with Nation of Islam, the racist black movement).



And, I sense an agenda coming on, da da daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

It's the Islamist Agenda with their Clash of Civilizations

The world shall tremble before us, mwahaha

oops, did I say that out loud? Just ignore me. Continue on with your business.

 

[mikefromwichita]

Well, since you can't be a good Muslim and a loyal american, you're still advocating removing all Muslims from this country?



How are the Muslim business owners that I know in Wichita destroying anything? Or are you just making sweeping generalizations again?

Well since you know Wichita soooooo well, you are probably aware of the CHEERING by muslims students at WSU and in numerous local work places that accompanied the fall of the Towers on 9/11 and you are probably also aware that the local muslim leaders refuse to condemn without qualification the actions of Al-Qaeda and other islamoterrorists. You are also aware that these same leaders are demanding accomodations to their religion in the Government Schools that would be denied out of hand to Christians.

BTW muslim owned businesses in this city are few and far between.

 

[mikefromwichita]

........... My nation is Islam ..................



It's the Islamist Agenda with their Clash of Civilizations

The world shall tremble before us, ...............

No doubt you believe such to be true. I hope devoutly that my Nation the USA will not allow you access to either information or facilities which could be used to harm the American People or their Interests.

 

[elanor]

A person cannot be both a 'good' muslim AND a loyal American.

Interesting. Reminds me of how Jesus was accused of being a threat to the nation because He spoke of another kingdom.

I don't say the Pledge of Allegiance because to me it's swearing loyalty to a country when my allegiance is to God. Perhaps I should join the ranks of those who cannot be loyal Americans because of my faith.

I'm with ToddnotTodd. He'd like to know how the Muslim businessmen in his area are destroying anything. I'd like to know how my friends who are Muslim are hurting anything by going about their normal, daily lives just as I do. I have found that getting to know people one-to-one and seeing who they are, how they live, what they believe eliminates my ability to generalize about a group of people. There are people who are dangerous to others in every country, every culture, every faith. But extremists don't represent the whole, and thinking they do can push us into treating innocent people unjustly.