Surah 4:89-90.

[Ikaria]

This passage has received quite a bit of airtime recently.

89.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

90.
Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

Right-wing hatemonger Amber Pawlik quoted it in a dizzyingly irrational rant against "liberals" (whoever they are) which may be read at your leisure (if you enjoy self-abuse) by clicking here.

The passage has been seized upon by those of her ilk and employed in equally sickening attacks on Islam, of the sort that you will find in this thread.

By way of setting the record straight, I'd like to present the commentary on that passage in the 1994 edition of the Koran by Amana Publications:

When the desertion of the hypocrites at Uhud nearly caused a disaster to the Muslim cause there was great feeling among the Muslims of Madinah against them. One party wanted to put them to the sword; another to leave them alone. The actual policy pursued avoided both extremes, and was determined by these verses.

It was clear that they were a danger to the Muslim community if they were admitted into its counsels, and in any case they were a source of demoralisation. But while every caution was used, no extreme measures were taken against them. On the contrary, they were given a chance of making good.

If they made a sacrifice for the cause ("flee from what is forbidden", see next verse) their conduct purged their previous cowardice, and their sincerity entitled them to be taken back. But if they deserted the Muslim community again, they were treated as enemies, with the additional penalty of desertion, which is enforced by all nations actually at war.

Even so, a human exception was made in the two cases specified in 4:90.

As Christians, we get upset when atheists quote the Bible out of context during their attacks on our faith.

It is therefore indefensible for a Christian to practice the same deceit.

 

[tulc]

Good post Ikaria! How do we expect to reach anyone if we can't even get the facts of their religion right? If we don't have respect for what they hold sacred why should they listen to what we say?
tulc(trying to rep Ikaria and it worked!)

 

[rahma]

I guess the other thread got deleted or something. Oh well.

Thank you for actually paying attention to the 1400 year old tradition of Islamic scholarship.

 

[Jonathan David]

Well done Ikaria. I'm really just reiterating what has already been said on this thread.

Peace.

JD

 

[mikefromwichita]

............But if they deserted the Muslim community again, they were treated as enemies, with the additional penalty of desertion, which is enforced by all nations actually at war...............

It appears to me that the very commentary you cite demonstrates CLEARLY how dangerous muslims are- by the words of the commentary they see themselves as a Nation and not as a Faith Community. Therefore it would seem quite reasonable for example for the USA to treat all muslims within our Borders as enemy aliens given that we are currently at War with the islamicists. In addition an affiliation with islam should make a person ineligible for USA Citizenship given their inability to renounce Loyalty to another 'Nation'.

 

[Ampmonster]

well ive never said anything about the Koran because i've never had 2 seconds to read it. all my point are drawn from current events and actions.

 

[Ikaria]

Good post Ikaria! How do we expect to reach anyone if we can't even get the facts of their religion right? If we don't have respect for what they hold sacred why should they listen to what we say?
tulc(trying to rep Ikaria and it worked!)

Thanks man! Just doing my job...

 

[Ikaria]

I guess the other thread got deleted or something. Oh well.

I don't think it was deleted, but it was certainly locked - mainly because I kept beating people up.

Thank you for actually paying attention to the 1400 year old tradition of Islamic scholarship.

You're welcome. I hate to see people misrepresenting religion, whether it's mine or anyone else's.

And it's especially offensive when a Christian is at fault.

 

[Ikaria]

Well done Ikaria. I'm really just reiterating what has already been said on this thread.

Peace.

JD

Cheers.

Let's fight the good fight, spread the love and increase the peace!

 

[xMinionX]

Therefore it would seem quite reasonable for example for the USA to treat all muslims within our Borders as enemy aliens given that we are currently at War with the islamicists.

Anyone remember WW2? Japanese Internment camps? It's comments like these that remind me how important it is that I keep studying history.

We're at war with Islamics, yes, but not at war with Islam. Even Bush made that clear.

Furthermore, Islamics, as I understand it, view their "nation" in the same way as many Christians view their fellowship with other Christians. Just because Islamics happened to use a different word doesn't change the underlying meaning.

 

[UberLutheran]

It appears to me that the very commentary you cite demonstrates CLEARLY how dangerous muslims are- by the words of the commentary they see themselves as a Nation and not as a Faith Community. Therefore it would seem quite reasonable for example for the USA to treat all muslims within our Borders as enemy aliens given that we are currently at War with the islamicists. In addition an affiliation with islam should make a person ineligible for USA Citizenship given their inability to renounce Loyalty to another 'Nation'.

We all know that Jews swear allegiance to Israel.

We all know that Roman Catholics swear allegiance Rome. In fact, isn't the Pope the Antichrist (assuming that one reads the Revelation of St. John literally, even though it was never intended to be read that way).

Anglicans swear allegiance to England. The Queen of England is the head of the Anglican church, therefore, Anglicans are not TRUE Americans.

Lutherans swear allegiance to Germany, and Germany wouldn't even support President Bush when he invaded a sovereign country, Iraq, on false pretenses! By golly, we're the UNITED STATES and we can go wherever we want, invade whomever we want, and nobody had better try to STOP US. The fact that Germany would not support OUR PRESIDENT shows that Lutherans are not REAL Americans!

And what about those Spanish-speakers down in Texas, Florida, New Mexico, Arizona, and California? We all KNOW their allegiance is to Cuba and Mexico. Why, they even celebrate their OWN "holidays" such as Sinko de Mayo and Mexican Independence Day instead of REAL American holidays such as OUR Independence Day (the REAL Independence Day).

We just got finished "celebrating" St. Patrick's Day -- a day to honor the people of IRELAND (a liberal Roman Catholic haven) but NOBODY celebrated Confederate Heroes Day (January 19).

So, why stop there, Mike? After all, the plain teaching of Scripture demonstrates quite clearly that we are to utterly annihilate anybody who "worships false gods" (Deuteronomy 12:2-3, 29-31) and kill them by stoning them to death (Deuteronomy 13:6-10).

 

[rahma]

Anyone remember WW2? Japanese Internment camps? It's comments like these that remind me how important it is that I keep studying history.

We're at war with Islamics, yes, but not at war with Islam. Even Bush made that clear.

Furthermore, Islamics, as I understand it, view their "nation" in the same way as many Christians view their fellowship with other Christians. Just because Islamics happened to use a different word doesn't change the underlying meaning.

Grammar point: Muslims, not Islamics... ok carry on


Islam is a complete way of life. If it were the ideal world, muslims would be one nation, the ummah, stretching from morocco to india and down into indonesia. However, we realize that religion means something else now adays and is no longer a national identity. Not that that would be a bad thing. I keep on thinking it would be neat to redraw nations based on religious/ideological grounds. That would mean there would be no more arguments about gay marriage, the pledge or other issues.

American Muslims (of which I am one) are not a fifth column. There are rules set forth by the Prophet Muhammad (saws) for muslims living in non muslim countries. If anyone has the time, which no one ever does (they would rather just make generalizations), they can read Western Muslims and the Future of Islam by Tariq Ramadan.

 

[rahma]

Lutherans swear allegiance to Germany, and Germany wouldn't even support President Bush when he invaded a sovereign country, Iraq, on false pretenses! By golly, we're the UNITED STATES and we can go wherever we want, invade whomever we want, and nobody had better try to STOP US. The fact that Germany would not support OUR PRESIDENT shows that Lutherans are not REAL Americans!

Actually, the Lutherans in my area are loyal to Norway. Not quite sure how they're a threat, but man, that lutefisk, that is definately an incideious plot against the american people if there ever was one.

 

[Ampmonster]

islam gets misinterpreted by a few just as all other faiths.

those few muslims are really really really hard core though.

 

[Ikaria]

If anyone has the time, which no one ever does (they would rather just make generalizations), they can read Western Muslims and the Future of Islam by Tariq Ramadan.

I have the time.

Where can I get ahold of this book, please?

 

[Ikaria]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Those directing their anger against Muslims in the wake of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon should be "ashamed," President Bush said Monday.

"Muslim Americans make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country," Bush said. "They need to be treated with respect."

Touring a Washington mosque, Bush said, "the face of terror is not the true faith of Islam."

He also quoted the Muslim holy book, the Quran: "In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil."

The president's comments underscored a Muslim group's reports Monday of scores of attacks against American Muslims, South Asians and Arabs since the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington last week.

At a press conference, the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) said it had received reports of harassment of Muslim women and obscenities shouted on the street; bombings, car rammings and arson attempts at mosques; and beatings, death threats and possibly even killings.

"We cannot count the amount of calls that we are getting of the general atmosphere of hatred," said CAIR's Joshua Salaam.

"Many people are calling in, giving us the incidents of them driving down the street and people trying to run them off the road, people shouting at them, obscenities, foul language," Salaam said. "We're getting calls of people getting fired from their jobs without any reason. And this is what we're concerned about is now we're going to have a future of discrimination that is more subtle."

FBI Director Robert Mueller said Monday that "vigilante attacks and threats against Arab-Americans will not be tolerated."

The FBI and Justice Department, he said, are committed to investigating and prosecuting violations of federal hate crime laws.


http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/gen.hate.crimes

It's old news - but a timely reminder is always helpful.

I haven't posted the whole article, of course. You'll need to click on the link to read the rest.

 

[rahma]

Uh oh, you cited CAIR. According to Daniel Pipes, CAIR is just a front of hamas and terrorists in the US. As are Muslim Students Associations (MSAs), ISNA, ICNA, MPAC, and every other american muslim organization. So you can't cite any of them, because they're all "terrorists."

 

[Ikaria]

Uh oh, you cited CAIR. According to Daniel Pipes, CAIR is just a front of hamas and terrorists in the US. As are Muslim Students Associations (MSAs), ISNA, ICNA, MPAC, and every other american muslim organization. So you can't cite any of them, because they're all "terrorists."

Actually, I do have a few problems with CAIR because I think they have a tendency to over-react a lot of the time, just as the ADL do.

Having said that, I also have a few problems with Pipes because he tends to be too much of a tub-thumper and he's so wildly pro-American that he can't see past his own patriotism a lot of the time.

Anyways, these attacks on Muslims were well documented, so it doesn't really matter that CAIR was quoted.

 

[rahma]

Double post, nothing to see here, move along, move along...

 

[rahma]

I have the time.

Where can I get ahold of this book, please?

It's a rather dense read, but luckly he sumarizes a lot of important terms and concepts in the beginning. It's relatively new, so your local library probably doesn't have it yet. However, I can suggest a few that your library may have:

Qur'an Liberation and Pluralism by Farid Esack. He was one of the leading Muslim leaders against apartheid in south africa. Kind of the Desmond Tutu of the South African Muslim community (although he makes people mad. I usually like authors that make people mad, but in a respectful way).

Anything by Khaled Abou El Fadl. He is classically trained, but also has a secular education in the west. He is banned in Saudi Arabia.
Books by him -
Speaking in God's Name
And God Knows the Soldiers: The Authoritative and Authoritarian in Islamic Discourses
The Place of Tolerance in Islam
Islam and the Challenge of Democracy : A Boston Review Book
Democracy and Islam in the New Constitution of Afghanistan


Autobiography of Malcolm X

Taking Back Islam: American Muslims Reclaim Their Faith edited by Michael Wolfe

And if you want anything more theological, look into lectures and books by Hamza Yusuf.