Supreme Courts rules in favor of churches

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

common sense ist just a word used when your arguing for something stupid. what ever happened to life is precious and we should care about everyone. Sure makes Christians look like hypocrites when you whine about saving lives.

There is a difference between taking nescary risks and taking unescary risks that kill others.

A life trapped in a bubble free of risk isn't a good life. It's a wasted life. You're making an assessment based on only one factor, saving lives. Damn everything else, people's livelihoods, people's spiritual health, people's own choice. We're talking about shutting down Churches, one thing which America was supposed to be against, the first thing the USA talks about. Give up that right, give in just a little on these grounds and it will be used as pretense going forward to do more lockdowns for other reasons. Sort of like how the US response to 9/11 was used as justification for the government to spy on it's own citizens via the NSA.

I see no grounds for artificially limiting all places of worship to 25 people when Cathedrals can easily and safely handle more congregants. I see no reason for allowing Liquor stores to be more open than Churches. It was an irrational restriction on Churches which didn't take into account local efforts on part of priests who have been proposing measures to safely serve their laity.

I think Christians should understand that we have a spiritual argument to make that goes solely beyond the secular or physical as well. The Eucharist and corporate worship is not just a part of Christianity but one of the essential foundations of a Christian life. This is especially true of Catholics, Orthodox and any Church which preaches the importance of consuming the Eucharist. Give this up and Christianity gives up the public sphere to the secular entirely. Consume products, but never consume religion or be very hesitant to.

 

[loveofourlord]

A life trapped in a bubble free of risk isn't a good life. It's a wasted life. You're making an assessment based on only one factor, saving lives. Damn everything else, people's livelihoods, people's spiritual health, people's own choice. We're talking about shutting down Churches, one thing which America was supposed to be against, the first thing the USA talks about. Give up that right, give in just a little on these grounds and it will be used as pretense going forward to do more lockdowns for other reasons. Sort of like how the US response to 9/11 was used as justification for the government to spy on it's own citizens via the NSA.

I see no grounds for artificially limiting all places of worship to 25 people when Cathedrals can easily and safely handle more congregants. I see no reason for allowing Liquor stores to be more open than Churches. It was an irrational restriction on Churches which didn't take into account local efforts on part of priests who have been proposing measures to safely serve their laity.

I think Christians should understand that we have a spiritual argument to make that goes solely beyond the secular or physical as well. The Eucharist and corporate worship is not just a part of Christianity but one of the essential foundations of a Christian life. This is especially true of Catholics, Orthodox and any Church which preaches the importance of consuming the Eucharist. Give this up and Christianity gives up the public sphere to the secular entirely. Consume products, but never consume religion or be very hesitant to.

ahhh yes the livelihood argument, say that to all the businesses that your way of thinking have bankrupted and forced to close down because they couldn't afford to remain open, due to not enough businesses, but were forced to remain open instead of helped. There is still internet and other ways. The church is supposed to be there to help people not kill them, and that's all i see these days with Churches.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

ahhh yes the livelihood argument, say that to all the businesses that your way of thinking have bankrupted and forced to close down because they couldn't afford to remain open, due to not enough businesses, but were forced to remain open instead of helped. There is still internet and other ways. The church is supposed to be there to help people not kill them, and that's all i see these days with Churches.

Do you even know what argument you're making any more? Businesses have bankrupted and closed due to shutdowns and hysterical politicians wanting them closed. Not from those who would like to see the economy still functioning and let businesses remain open. Businesses except for Amazon and other online providers. They're making a killing because of Corona, funny that.

Also, don't be hysterical and suggest that Churches are killing people. They aren't.

 

[Redwingfan9]

That one verse is about skin disease many others are not they include diseases such as leprosy and others that are observable. I don't know why you would think they are ceremonial practices, God didn't give them as ceremony any more than He did laws about theft, or what should be done if someone's animal kills someone.

With this disease one can't always know that they are sick, neither can they know if someone else is sick. Do you think that the President or Herman Cain knew that the person who gave them coVid was sick? Did Benson Carson know that the person he was hanging out with was sick, did the spreader themself know at the time that they were sick and could give to Dr. Carson, the President, or Herman Cain? They had to have caught it from someone else...and every one of those people caught it from someone else.
God was for stopping the spread of disease.

Any law in the old testament that focuses on the imperfections of mankind that are unrelated to sin are ceremonial in nature. If you are going to argue that the Levitical verse in question is applicable today then you must also argue that women on their period shouldn't be allowed out of the house because they too are unclean according to the ceremonial law.

I have been asking all along, what happens when the vaccine doesn't work? Shall we forever hide in our homes? Shall we never return to church? Being afraid of the unknown and demanding everyone else cater to fear of the unknown is outrageous. As Christians, we should be the ones leading the way to reopen by worshipping in public. We know that not only do we need to be fed spiritually, the rest of the nation does as well. That most churches are in hiding right now shows us the spiritual impotence of the church. The godless seculars have won.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Who said not worship, in 2020 you can do it from home with technology. I don't think he consider worship so important that you send some of your church to see him out of neglegence.

Technology is nonsense. Corporate worship isn't a television show or podcast meant to be consumed on a screen. It is coming face to face with the Lord in his courts, the church. No, not the building but the practice of singing, praying, hearing the word and expounding of the word with other believers together in one place as God so commands.

 

[WolfGate]

Constitutionally, I think the Supreme Court ruling is correct. What one can do and what one should do are not the same thing. I'm fine with churches that meet while requiring proper social distancing and masks, etc. - dependent on their specific size, location and situation. Churches that just go back to services like it is 2019 are unwise and irresponsible and IMHO more focused on having been constitutionally right that doing what is right.

 

[hislegacy]

Observation: Open Casino's - no one complains, Open Bars and strip clubs - no one complains, march en masse - no one complains, riot, destroy property, harass people, not one concern about spreading covid. Stand in line for black Friday deals - no complaints, pack out Walmart - no complaints

Open a church for services and the complaints come out of the walls!

 

[loveofourlord]

Do you even know what argument you're making any more? Businesses have bankrupted and closed due to shutdowns and hysterical politicians wanting them closed. Not from those who would like to see the economy still functioning and let businesses remain open. Businesses except for Amazon and other online providers. They're making a killing because of Corona, funny that.

Also, don't be hysterical and suggest that Churches are killing people. They aren't.

I do understand it, apparently, you don't. Many businesses couldn't stay afloat with reduced capacity wether from government, or the fact that most people aren't going to risk covid to buy a new shirt in store when they can buy it online and many other things. What could have happened is the government pay them to stay closed until things were under control. Instead you guys forced them to remain open, and they couldn't afford it. Simple as that.

 

[loveofourlord]

Observation: Open Casino's - no one complains, Open Bars and strip clubs - no one complains, march en masse - no one complains, riot, destroy property, harass people, not one concern about spreading covid. Stand in line for black Friday deals - no complaints, pack out Walmart - no complaints

Open a church for services and the complaints come out of the walls!

what planet are you on? Everyone complains about them opening things too early.

 

[hislegacy]

what planet are you on? Everyone complains about them opening things too early.

Perhaps everyone in your circle does, but no one on CF has opened a thread complaining. There is nothing about rioters being 'mass spreaders of covid', there is nothing about the mass spreading of covid at casinos, or bars and strip clubs. There is nothing complaining about the lines forming for Black Friday sales.

That is the reality of the planet I live on.

 

[Hank77]

If you are going to argue that the Levitical verse in question is applicable today

Nowhere did I say the law was applicable today. Sheesh!
But I think we can get an idea of how God would approve of us dealing with an infectious disease. Wearing masks, social distancing, washing our hands, testing and contact tracing, and isolating when we have come in contact with an infected person.

 

[loveofourlord]

Perhaps everyone in your circle does, but no one on CF has opened a thread complaining. There is nothing about rioters being 'mass spreaders of covid', there is nothing about the mass spreading of covid at casinos, or bars and strip clubs. There is nothing complaining about the lines forming for Black Friday sales.

That is the reality of the planet I live on.

you must not been here long yes there have been posts complaining, I should know I was in many of them. But after 4-5 months you get tired of arguing the same thing with people like you over and over gain. Heck this very conversation happened back in april/may with many complaining about Florida ignoring stuff.

Now it's 200k+ infections and 2k+ deaths a day going into holidays.

 

[hislegacy]

you must not been here long yes there have been posts complaining, I should know I was in many of them. But after 4-5 months you get tired of arguing the same thing with people like you over and over gain. Heck this very conversation happened back in april/may with many complaining about Florida ignoring stuff.

Now it's 200k+ infections and 2k+ deaths a day going into holidays.

You are right, I have only been here since 2006.

Did you read the link?

The judge ruled that the restrictions were overly harsh on places of worship.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Nowhere did I say the law was applicable today. Sheesh!
But I think we can get an idea of how God would approve of us dealing with an infectious disease. Wearing masks, social distancing, washing our hands, testing and contact tracing, and isolating when we have come in contact with an infected person.

There is zero Biblical evidence that God approves of any of those things. Everything you cite, the masks, distancing and contact tracing are matters of Christian liberty. If you want to do those things have at it but you have no business judging me for exercising my liberty differently from you. What none of us should tolerate is the government shutting down our houses of worship.

 

[loveofourlord]

You are right, I have only been here since 2006.

Did you read the link?

The judge ruled that the restrictions were overly harsh on places of worship.

yeah I saw they were imbecilles, comparing church to liquor stores, they shouldn't be allowed on the bench if they don't have 4th grade level comprehension skills. It's just activism from the bench wanting to create a theocracy rather then actually uphold intelligent debate.

 

[hislegacy]

yeah I saw they were imbecilles, comparing church to liquor stores, they shouldn't be allowed on the bench if they don't have 4th grade level comprehension skills. It's just activism from the bench wanting to create a theocracy rather then actually uphold intelligent debate.

How does applying the law equally create a theocracy?

 

[loveofourlord]

How does applying the law equally create a theocracy?

It's not applied equally. A liquor store and a church are not the same thing, they don't spread the virus the same way they are not the same problem. Equally means treated the same way as other things that are equal. This is like Christians wanting special privileges to ignore anti-discrimination laws, rather they expect that their religious views should put them above the rest of society.

 

[hislegacy]

It's not applied equally. A liquor store and a church are not the same thing, they don't spread the virus the same way they are not the same problem. Equally means treated the same way as other things that are equal. This is like Christians wanting special privileges to ignore anti-discrimination laws, rather they expect that their religious views should put them above the rest of society.

I believe it would do your rebuttal well if you would at least read the ruling before making accusations.

quote from the Supreme Court Justices:
G

The majority noted that New York had singled out houses of worship for more severe restrictions than businesses deemed “essential” by the governor.

“While attendance at houses of worship is limited to 25 persons, even non-essential businesses may decide for themselves how many persons to admit,” the majority wrote.

“Stemming the spread of COVID–19 is unquestionably a compelling interest, but it is hard to see how the challenged regulations can be regarded as ‘narrowly tailored,’” the majority continued. “They are far more restrictive than any COVID–related regulations that have previously come before the Court, much tighter than those adopted by many other jurisdictions hard-hit by the pandemic, and far more severe than has been shown to be required to prevent the spread of the virus at the applicants’ services.”
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