Support for the death penalty

VirOptimus

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9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

Jesus was also killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony he maintained. It is the abuse of human governments in rebellion against God, against His word and against His testimony that causes this seal to be opened.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

This earthquake is very hard to imagine. [The biggest earthquake I can think of in Earth's history is from five super volcanos on earth, if any one of them exploded you would have a great earthquake, the ash in the sky would surely cause the sun to turn black, and I suppose over the course of a month you would see the moon blood red due to the ash. I don't know what they mean by stars falling from the sky unless a meteorite striking the Earth is the cause of the earthquake. As for every mountain and island being removed from its place that apparently happens when we have a large earthquake (they have noted that the Earth's rate of rotation and other motions will be affected, even slightly). I suppose if a super volcano erupts every single plate on Earth's surface will be moved if just slightly. So a meteorite striking Earth and causing a super volcano to erupt is the closest analogy I could see to what is being described here.]

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I believe that this "great day of their wrath" is due to the souls that had been slain due to the word of God and their testimony. This began with Abel, continued with the babies in Egypt, was seen again with the children killed at the time of Jesus birth, was fully confirmed with Jesus death, and has been going on for the last 2,000 years. What precipitates the "great day of their wrath" against Kings, princes, generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else? Abuse of power in killing those who you disagree with. So on the one hand God gave governments the authority to wield the sword, but on the other the misuse of this authority provokes the great day of His wrath.

Now you are just preaching.
 
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ZNP

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Now you are just preaching.
Yes, repent and believe in the Lord and you shall be saved, both you and your household.

When it comes to the death penalty even those who strongly oppose it admit that in certain circumstances whether they use Hitler or Dahmer, or whatever, that the don't oppose it. The problem everyone has with it is that innocent people are executed. That is the issue, the Bible recognizes it, and lets you know that it is a major reason for the judgement on human society at the end of the age.
 
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VirOptimus

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Yes, repent and believe in the Lord and you shall be saved, both you and your household.

When it comes to the death penalty even those who strongly oppose it admit that in certain circumstances whether they use Hitler or Dahmer, or whatever, that the don't oppose it. The problem everyone has with it is that innocent people are executed. That is the issue, the Bible recognizes it, and lets you know that it is a major reason for the judgement on human society at the end of the age.

No I oppose it for everybody. Executing innocent isnt why I object.

Neither is that why most people here oppose it.

You really should do your homework.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I have been against the death penalty for 50+ years, but I am no doubt in the minority on CF. My view is that capital punishment is not consistent with the spirit of the Gospels, though it is definitely consistent with the Old Testament and possibly with Paul's writings, though that it not certain.

God is for the death penalty, not eternal life in torment. We should take a lesson.
 
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ZNP

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God is for the death penalty, not eternal life in torment. We should take a lesson.
Great point. For a murderer the death penalty can take 25 years to carry out, giving this person a chance to repent of their sins and receive the Lord by faith.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Great point. For a murderer the death penalty can take 25 years to carry out, giving this person a chance to repent of their sins and receive the Lord by faith.

My point is that life in prison is like eternal life; not part of God's plan for the unrepentant. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment.
 
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ZNP

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My point is that life in prison is like eternal life; not part of God's plan for the unrepentant. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment.
I get that, but I also see that repenting for your sins and receiving Christ is far more important in the light of eternity. People who are so focused on the horror of executing a prisoner are not valuing the horror of not receiving the Lord and not being forgiven of your sins. The death penalty can therefore be seen as merciful since it gives the murderer the greatest opportunity to repent of their sins.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I get that, but I also see that repenting for your sins and receiving Christ is far more important in the light of eternity. People who are so focused on the horror of executing a prisoner are not valuing the horror of not receiving the Lord and not being forgiven of your sins. The death penalty can therefore be seen as merciful since it gives the murderer the greatest opportunity to repent of their sins.

It would be better for all if a murderer is executed, trusting that he/she will come up in the second resurrection and have a very good chance for eternal life.
 
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ZNP

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Executing people for god(s)? Sounds barbaric.
We are holding people accountable for their sins and we are letting them know these sins are serious. It seems to me what is truly typical of a barbaric people is not holding people accountable for murder and not taking murder seriously.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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We are holding people accountable for their sins and we are letting them know these sins are serious. It seems to me what is truly typical of a barbaric people is not holding people accountable for murder and not taking murder seriously.

Actually we don't hold very many accountable for their crimes. Instead we victimize the law abiding public on their behalf. If you look at the penalty for various types of crimes they bear no relationship whatsoever.
 
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ZNP

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Actually we don't hold very many accountable for their crimes. Instead we victimize the law abiding public on their behalf. If you look at the penalty for various types of crimes they bear no relationship whatsoever.
Can you give an example of what you are talking about? This is a little too vague to respond to.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Can you give an example of what you are talking about? This is a little too vague to respond to.

Sure. Someone steals from another. The perp gets free room and board, healthcare etc. while the victim not only suffers loss but has to pay for the perp's expenses.

My daughter's car was stolen and crashed by a 'joyrider'. A judgment for $2800 was entered against him. His family paid my daughter $200. That was three years ago. She will never see another penny.

Many cases involving property damage and restitution judgments are never enforced. As a landlord I have several judgments against tenants who skipped out on rent. There is no legal mechanism for recovering those losses.

Fines for various felonies and misdemeanors are kept by the state. The victims get nothing. There are no state mandated work/restitution programs to make victims whole.
 
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ZNP

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Sure. Someone steals from another. The perp gets free room and board, healthcare etc. while the victim not only suffers loss but has to pay for the perp's expenses.

My daughter's car was stolen and crashed by a 'joyrider'. A judgment for $2800 was entered against him. His family paid my daughter $200. That was three years ago. She will never see another penny.

Many cases involving property damage and restitution judgments are never enforced. As a landlord I have several judgments against tenants who skipped out on rent. There is no legal mechanism for recovering those losses.

Fines for various felonies and misdemeanors are kept by the state. The victims get nothing. There are no state mandated work/restitution programs to make victims whole.
I think the Bible does a much better job with these kind of crimes. If the police catch a thief they have to repay 5 fold, if they turn themselves in they have to pay 2xs. Also, if they have nothing with which to pay they sell their labor as a slave. So if they owed your daughter 2800 they would have to work, probably for a month for someone. The money paid for that month would go to pay off your loss. No taxpayers pay for prison. Likewise the thief is gainfully employed for a month though they don't see any of that money and it could give them a whole new perspective on their life of crime.

Perhaps we could change the title of the thread to "support for Biblical justice"
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I think the Bible does a much better job with these kind of crimes. If the police catch a thief they have to repay 5 fold, if they turn themselves in they have to pay 2xs. Also, if they have nothing with which to pay they sell their labor as a slave. So if they owed your daughter 2800 they would have to work, probably for a month for someone. The money paid for that month would go to pay off your loss. No taxpayers pay for prison. Likewise the thief is gainfully employed for a month though they don't see any of that money and it could give them a whole new perspective on their life of crime.

Perhaps we could change the title of the thread to "support for Biblical justice"

The liberals would resist any work/restitution programs insisting that the State would simply arrest people, mainly minorities, just to get free labor. They view it as a form of slavery.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Executing people for god(s)? Sounds barbaric.

What is little known by the public in general are the horrific details of some murders. The family is thus spared of even more pain. If these details were known it is likely that attitudes concerning the death penalty would change.
 
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ZNP

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The liberals would resist any work/restitution programs insisting that the State would simply arrest people, mainly minorities, just to get free labor. They view it as a form of slavery.
Then the NFL is also a form of slavery. If you are convicted for owing someone $2,000 how is it not justice that you repay the $2,000. Locking you up in an expensive prison is simply a way for politicians to create a very expensive government program, this in turn gives them power over the contracts which motivates the contractors to donate to campaigns.
 
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