Support for the death penalty

[ZNP]

This is so stupid.

Thats like saying that because of the research done on human subjects in concentration camp could be used in medicine concentration camps are good.

I agree, comparing the death penalty administered by a court of law to concentration camps is stupid. Who made this comparison?

 

[VirOptimus]

Yes I know there is a lot of research and this post was far too brief to be comprehensive. But I also know that it is a valid hypothesis that improving the criminal justices ability to catch and convict the actual perpetrator of a violent crime can explain the drop in the rate of violent crime.

Nope, its an unsuported statement.

you also seem ignorant on the justice system, sociology, psychology and statistics.

 

[VirOptimus]

I agree, comparing the death penalty administered by a court of law to concentration camps is stupid. Who made this comparison?

So you get that your argument is stupid? Good.

 

[ZNP]

So you get that your argument is stupid? Good.

Yes, arguing with an atheist who is against any evidence that supports the Bible is stupid. But I started this thread, hard to just ignore your posts at this point.

 

[VirOptimus]

Yes, arguing with an atheist who is against any evidence that supports the Bible is stupid. But I started this thread, hard to just ignore your posts at this point.

Holy non sequitur batman!

 

[ZNP]

"Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man."

This is the covenant God made with Noah -- the formation of human government.

Now there is a very solid handhold for appeal -- if you cannot prove that this is the person who shed the blood of man. So any reasonable doubt should be a fair reason to argue against the death penalty being imposed.

There are two reasons given for the death penalty. First, the person that this person killed was valuable. They were made in the image of God and you have to show proper appreciation for the person who was murdered. Second, the muderer is also in the image of God. Since God is righteous and pays in full for His actions this person also must pay in full.

Once again, I realize there are those who don't believe in God and do not see the Bible as a compelling argument. But, if they can say that then those who do believe in God and do see the Bible as a compelling argument also get to express their opinion. That is what a democracy is all about.

Now the NT displays the unrighteous use of the death penalty in great detail, every Christian should be aware of the government wielding the sword in an unrighteous manner. At the same time Paul lets us know in clear, black and white language, that the government has the authority, from God, to wield the sword. So I can certainly appreciate a Christian who comes down on either side of this debate.

Yes, innocent people are killed when you have a death penalty and yes, having the death penalty causes your justice system to be held to a higher standard resulting in more justice, not less.

 

[holo]

Well you can pick parts that you like from the law given to Israel if you want, but you'd be hard pressed to argue for things like an eye for an eye or stoning people for adultery to be Christian values, even though there's no debate that they were indeed commanded by God according to the bible.

And yes, the death penalty may indirectly have contributed to advances in forensics. The question is if it's morally right or defensible. We could probably motivate scientists to make great advances in medicine if we, say, strangled one puppy for each day they failed to come up with a cure for cancer, but that wouldn't be an argument for why strangling puppies would be a good thing.

 

[VirOptimus]

-snip-

... having the death penalty causes your justice system to be held to a higher standard resulting in more justice, not less.

The data seem to suggest that countries with the death penalty has sub-par justice systems.

So you are in error yet again.

 

[ZNP]

The data seem to suggest that countries with the death penalty has sub-par justice systems.

So you are in error yet again.

The data also suggests that China no longer has an issue with Covid, or that North Korea does not have anyone infected, etc. That claim is far too vague to have any meaning at all.

I compare the US with the US over the last 100 years and see significant improvement in crimes committed, and estimates of how many innocent people are incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit.

I see no valid basis to compare the US with China or the UK or Germany unless we are looking at improvement for each country over the same time frame.

So seeing improvement worldwide as use of fingerprints became common or the use of DNA, that is a valid comparison. In the US we compared a decrease in crime in NYC with other cities to determine how much was due to policies and how much was due to a decrease in the crack epidemic.

What is really important is keeping honest, valid statistics and then holding the government accountable to improve the safety and security of people. You don't have to have a death penalty to do that and this will cause the system to improve and adopt effective techniques. The reason the death penalty was effective for the last 4,000 years is because the people administering it have a conscience and that has motivated many (not all, but many) to be sure that there is no doubt.

Once again the situation has changed from Noah to Jesus to today. At the time of Noah government was charged with dealing with murder in a responsible way. At the time of Jesus we were all made very aware that governments can be corrupt and wield the sword in an unrighteous way. Today we have the capability of using technology and statistics to really put the justice system under a spotlight.

 

[VirOptimus]

The data also suggests that China no longer has an issue with Covid, or that North Korea does not have anyone infected, etc. That claim is far too vague to have any meaning at all.

I compare the US with the US over the last 100 years and see significant improvement in crimes committed, and estimates of how many innocent people are incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit.

I see no valid basis to compare the US with China or the UK or Germany unless we are looking at improvement for each country over the same time frame.

So seeing improvement worldwide as use of fingerprints became common or the use of DNA, that is a valid comparison. In the US we compared a decrease in crime in NYC with other cities to determine how much was due to policies and how much was due to a decrease in the crack epidemic.

What is really important is keeping honest, valid statistics and then holding the government accountable to improve the safety and security of people. You don't have to have a death penalty to do that and this will cause the system to improve and adopt effective techniques. The reason the death penalty was effective for the last 4,000 years is because the people administering it have a conscience and that has motivated many (not all, but many) to be sure that there is no doubt.

You have a conclusion you like and cherrypick the data to fit. Thats inane.

And the argument is still crap.

 

[jayem]

I can understand how capital punishment could be supported. Crimes of such enormity have been committed that execution would seem to be demanded simply as a matter of justice. Suppose Hitler had been captured, tried at Nuremberg, and convicted of crimes against humanity. What would be an appropriate sentence?

But that’s thinking emotionally. If you think about it logically, isn’t a lifetime in prison with no chance of parole a death sentence of sorts? And consider what the worst of the worst (like Ted Kaczynski, Ramzi Yousef, and Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph) experience in a place like the ultra-high security Colorado Supermax. Solitary confinement 23 hrs/day in a 7 x 12 concrete cell, with only a tiny window at ceiling height for natural light. 1 hour a day for solitary exercise. All meals eaten alone in the cell. A small TV built into the cell wall with limited stations. Viewing permitted as a privilege and only for limited times. The only human contact allowed is with clergy, or attorney. Imagine this is the rest of your life. Some things are worse than death.

 

[ZNP]

I can understand how capital punishment could be supported. Crimes of such enormity have been committed that execution would seem to be demanded simply as a matter of justice. Suppose Hitler had been captured, tried at Nuremberg, and convicted of crimes against humanity. What would be an appropriate sentence?

But that’s thinking emotionally. If you think about it logically, isn’t a lifetime in prison with no chance of parole a death sentence of sorts? And consider what the worst of the worst (like Ted Kaczynski, Ramzi Yousef, and Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph) experience in a place like the ultra-high security Colorado Supermax. Solitary confinement 23 hrs/day in a 7 x 12 concrete cell, with only a tiny window at ceiling height for natural light. 1 hour a day for solitary exercise. A small TV built into the cell wall with limited stations. Viewing permitted as a privilege and only for limited times. The only human contact allowed is with clergy, or attorney. Imagine this is the rest of your life. Some things are worse than death.

I agree. If I had a relative killed in the Nazi concentration camps I don't think that I would care between life in prison vs death penalty.

But, at Noah's time did they have the resources to put people in prison under maximum security for life? I don't know how practical this would be for the time of Noah, but certainly for our day today it is plausible. Again, in a debate these are relevant points and I think the Bible clearly shows that the debate changes with the times and circumstances. Again, what is plausible in the US might not be plausible in a third world country.

 

[jayem]

I agree. If I had a relative killed in the Nazi concentration camps I don't think that I would care between life in prison vs death penalty.

Yeah. And how about this as a sentence for Hitler? He’s shipped off to Israel when it became an independent country. He’d be imprisoned there in total solitary confinement except for several hours every week. When under heavy guard, he’d be made to clean toilets in synagogues. He’d be the Fuhrer of the urinals for the rest of his life. That’s making the punishment fit the crime.

 

[ZNP]

Yeah. And how about this as a sentence for Hitler? He’s shipped off to Israel when it became an independent country. He’d be imprisoned there in total solitary confinement except for several hours every week. When under heavy guard, he’d be made to clean toilets in synagogues. He’d be the Fuhrer of the urinals for the rest of his life. That’s making the punishment fit the crime.

I place my faith in the Lord's word -- vengeance is mine saith the Lord.

Nothing I could come up with would be better than the Lord.

 

[ZNP]

I place my faith in the Lord's word -- vengeance is mine saith the Lord.

Nothing I could come up with would be better than the Lord.

Please note, I don't see "vengeance" as an argument supporting the death penalty.

 

[durangodawood]

....Also, things like fingerprints and DNA have helped to dramatically reduce the number of innocent people in prison from just 100 years ago......

Thousands of convictions have been overturned due to lab fraud.

How would that help the wrongly convicted if theyre dead?

 

[ZNP]

Thousands of convictions have been overturned due to lab fraud.

How would that help the wrongly convicted if theyre dead?

The benefit to those on death row is a greater number of appeals and many people willing to offer their help pro bono.

Once an innocent person is executed due to fraud or corruption it wouldn't help. However, overturning convictions with DNA evidence is one of the non profits that specifically operate to help those on death row. The benefit here is that the spotlight shines brighter on the criminal justice system and those caught in fraud can be prosecuted.

Please note there is no evidence that fraud and corruption would decrease with life in prison, what will decrease is the average prisoners ability to fight the conviction.

 

[durangodawood]

The benefit to those on death row is a greater number of appeals and many people willing to offer their help pro bono.

Once an innocent person is executed due to fraud or corruption it wouldn't help. However, overturning convictions with DNA evidence is one of the non profits that specifically operate to help those on death row. The benefit here is that the spotlight shines brighter on the criminal justice system and those caught in fraud can be prosecuted.

Please note there is no evidence that fraud and corruption would decrease with life in prison, what will decrease is the average prisoners ability to fight the conviction.

We could provide all these benefits by just providing these benefits, rather than attaching the death penalty to the whole thing.

 

[ZNP]

We could provide all these benefits by just providing these benefits, rather than attaching the death penalty to the whole thing.

Yes, we could, but Noah couldn't. The death penalty was instituted when human government first began. Later in the Bible we see a very corrupt government misuse this and then get judged by God, first the Jews then the Romans. Paul wrote to the Christians who were a small sect enduring persecution that they needed to respect the government's use of the sword as God given, that doesn't mean you can't vote against it when given that right. It is not reasonable to judge the Bible for a word given 4,000 years ago based on what human society can do today. Finally, I would point out that this abuse of the death penalty is what the 5th seal in Revelation is all about.

 

[ZNP]

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

Jesus was also killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony he maintained. It is the abuse of human governments in rebellion against God, against His word and against His testimony that causes this seal to be opened.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

This earthquake is very hard to imagine. [The biggest earthquake I can think of in Earth's history is from five super volcanos on earth, if any one of them exploded you would have a great earthquake, the ash in the sky would surely cause the sun to turn black, and I suppose over the course of a month you would see the moon blood red due to the ash. I don't know what they mean by stars falling from the sky unless a meteorite striking the Earth is the cause of the earthquake. As for every mountain and island being removed from its place that apparently happens when we have a large earthquake (they have noted that the Earth's rate of rotation and other motions will be affected, even slightly). I suppose if a super volcano erupts every single plate on Earth's surface will be moved if just slightly. So a meteorite striking Earth and causing a super volcano to erupt is the closest analogy I could see to what is being described here.]

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I believe that this "great day of their wrath" is due to the souls that had been slain due to the word of God and their testimony. This began with Abel, continued with the babies in Egypt, was seen again with the children killed at the time of Jesus birth, was fully confirmed with Jesus death, and has been going on for the last 2,000 years. What precipitates the "great day of their wrath" against Kings, princes, generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else? Abuse of power in killing those who you disagree with. So on the one hand God gave governments the authority to wield the sword, but on the other the misuse of this authority provokes the great day of His wrath.