Supersessionism and Antisemitism

[ToBeLoved]

It's a GENERALIZATION that I've seen repeated in many different places over the course of my life. For example, the Catholic Church changed it's entire attitude towards Jews during Vatican II with the document Nostra Aetate--the dominos are still falling from that! Much of what I've read is not online but in books, such as Mark Kinzer's history of Supersessionism. Supersessionism does still exist, but it doesn't hold the stranglehold that it once did. For example, many Christians today believe that God had a hand in Israel becoming a state, and in the victory of the six day war--among Evangelicals these things are even seen as a fulfillment of Prophecy. They believe that Israel will play a large part in the Last Days. IOW, God is NOT "done with Israel." The idea that the Jews as a People are "cursed" and doomed to wander the face of the earth unloved by God is also mostly left behind today. The popularity of such books as "The Hiding Place," where Opa Ten Boom declares that the Jews are "the apple of God's eyes" tends to be the modern Christian view of the People of Israel.

I'm a Jew who is a Christian. It is absurd to accuse me of not wanting peace between Jews and Christians. Ridiculous.

Well you know those generalizations can go both ways. The Old Testament is full of text where God talks about the Hebrew people and how they did not obey God and God scattered the Jews all around the world because of their disobedience.

So if you think it's ok to use the Holocaust as a timeline marker, just speaking generally than I see no problem with using the entire Old Testament as a testimony of Jewish behavior throughout the ages.

The Jews were suppose to be a lamp for God to the world, but that never happened and from what I read it is God who is keeping His promises to the patriarch's such as Abraham and many blessing flow to the Jewish people through him, not because the current people are the apple of His eye. They are His chosen people who did not accomplish the task they were given.

I'm not sure if you have memorized a few verses and that is what you have built your entire theology on or what. But anyone can see the Jewish people have not been the light God has intended.

I do think you like to put the Jewish people in a victim situation, ie using the word Holocaust, it's obviously to put people in a certain mind set. Those references don't just pop out of nowhere and I think it is pretty bad that you make references to Christians with this word in the same post.

I have heard you say that Christian hate the Jewish people, so there is some agenda to this. This is not just an 'ooops'. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth on how the Jewish people see others and themselves relating to others.

 

[Open Heart]

Well you know those generalizations can go both ways. The Old Testament is full of text where God talks about the Hebrew people and how they did not obey God and God scattered the Jews all around the world because of their disobedience.

As I have said from the beginning of this conversation, although the right to ownership of the Promised Land is without condition and is perpetual, the right to LIVE ON THE LAND is conditional upon the obedience of Israel. When Israel became stubbornly idolatrous without repentance, God exiled her.

 

[Open Heart]

The Jews were suppose to be a lamp for God to the world, but that never happened

Actually, by the days of the Pharisees, Judaism had completely and permanently repented of idolatry. It was agressively proselytizing the Gentile world, setting up synagogues in every city (as the book of Acts notes). There was a time in history where a full 10% of the Roman Empire had become Jews, and an even greater minority were Gentile "God-fearers" (like Cornelius) -- meaning they believed in the teachings of the Torah and Prophets, but had not been circumcised and taken on the 613 commandments of the Torah (become Jews). Jesus even states in the gospels that the Pharisees would "compass sea and land to make a Proselyte."

For centuries after Christ, Judaism and Christianity competed for converts, until Christianity became the State religion and outlawed Judaism making converts. For most of the next couple millenia, spreading God and Torah were too dangerous because of Christian persecution.

 

[Open Heart]

I do think you like to put the Jewish people in a victim situation, ie using the word Holocaust

Man, it's not just the Holocaust. It's all of our history. Even before the Church. The Egyptians. The Amelekites. The Philistines. The Assyrians. The Babylonians. The Persians. The Greeks. The Romans. The Church for 2000 years. The Fascists. Now it's Islam and the Left. Don't you see it? Most of our Holy Days are "They tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat." LOL It's obviously only by the will of God that we are still on the face of the Earth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Man, it's not just the Holocaust. It's all of our history. Even before the Church. The Egyptians. The Amelekites. The Philistines. The Assyrians. The Babylonians. The Persians. The Greeks. The Romans. The Church for 2000 years. The Fascists. Now it's Islam and the Left. Don't you see it? Most of our Holy Days are "They tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat." LOL It's obviously only by the will of God that we are still on the face of the Earth.

God still protects Israel.

 

[Open Heart]

God still protects Israel.

Even from the Church.

 

[BobRyan]

God still protects Israel.

God protects all mankind -- Revelation 7:1-3

 

[Open Heart]

God protects all mankind -- Revelation 7:1-3

It's not the same. As Opa TenBoom used to say, Israel is the apple of God's eye. Other peoples are here today and gone tomorrow. Where are the Egyptians? The Assyrians? The Canaanites? The Philistines? The Romans? Did God not care for them? Yet he allowed them to die off as peoples; they are no more.

You can say, But they sinned and God simply punished them. But Israel sinned as well. Half the Bible is filled with accounts of Israel's unfaithfulness to God. And God did punish her. And yet, here she is today. Still thriving, despite figurative Amalekites in every generation seeking to destroy her.

Opa TenBoom is right.

 

[BobRyan]

As I have said from the beginning of this conversation, although the right to ownership of the Promised Land is without condition and is perpetual, .

Not according to God - which is why they got captured so often including by Babylon and Rome.

and of course Jeremiah 18 does apply

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6 “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’

Matthew 23
. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

 

[BobRyan]

It's not the same. As Opa TenBoom used to say, Israel is the apple of God's eye. Other peoples are here today and gone tomorrow. Where are the Egyptians? The Assyrians? The Canaanites? The Philistines? The Romans? Did God not care for them? Yet he allowed them to die off as peoples; they are no more.

Indeed those great world empires fell.

Do you view the history of Israel over the past 2400 years as being that of "a great world empire" that has outlasted them all??

Jesus' statement "your house is left unto you desolate" has very specific reference to a prophetic statement by Solomon at the dedication of his temple.

so now we are not talking about the fact that God loves them and wants to save them - just as he does you and me.

Now we are talking about their historic fall from the path of being a great world empire.

Jews in Christ's day would have loved the notion of being a great world empire all the while rejecting Jesus as Messiah -- simply for the sake of being a great world empire. I think they were fully ready then - 2000 years ago for such an agenda.

 

[Open Heart]

Indeed those great world empires fell.

I wasn't thinking of them in terms of emprires, but peoples. The Amalekites were a Tribe is what I was saying. A tribe that is NO MORE. Most Peoples don't last more than several hundred years. Yet Israel has lasted for several thousand.

 

[BobRyan]

I wasn't thinking of them in terms of emprires, but peoples. The Amalekites were a Tribe is what I was saying. A tribe that is NO MORE. Most Peoples don't last more than several hundred years. Yet Israel has lasted for several thousand.

We are all the descendants of Noah.

 

[Open Heart]

We are all the descendants of Noah.

But God took those descendents of Noah who were part of the People of Israel, and set them apart, and covenanted with them, and gave them the Torah, which is not true for the rest of Noah's descendants. Any time the 613 conflict with the Noahide covenant, the 613 take precedence, as a New Covenant overrides an old one so long as both parties agree. So while refraining from shellfish is part of my heritage, it is not part of yours.

 

[BobRyan]

But God took those descendents of Noah who were part of the People of Israel, and set them apart, and covenanted with them, and gave them the Torah,

Now we all have the Bible. we all know that God created life on planet earth in 7 days and we all know about the flood, we all know about the fall of mankind, we all know about God's definition of marriage we all know about the predictions in Daniel for the first coming and the events following the first coming of Christ. We all know about the Day of Atonement and how God defines the doctrine on atonement etc.

But it is interesting that when you point to what makes Israel special - it gets back to having the Bible, and of course even in the OT God said He was the savior of the world.

 

[BobRyan]

Any time the 613 conflict with the Noahide covenant, the 613 take precedence, as a New Covenant overrides an old one so long as both parties agree.

both parties? who would that be?

So while refraining from shellfish is part of my heritage, it is not part of yours.

So you are saying that Noah was offering up shelfish and pork on the altars of Genesis 8??

20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.


Well we don't still have animal sacrifices - do we need to go back to them since Noah had them?

We do have pork - was Noah wrong about not offering pork on the altar?

What was the definition of "clean" animal as read by the contemporary readers of Moses? - as they read the story of Noah?

You can have any heritage you like - I choose to stick with the Bible itself.

Acts 17:11 - sola scriptura - and the "scriptura" in that case is the Hebrew Bible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But God took those descendents of Noah who were part of the People of Israel, and set them apart, and covenanted with them, and gave them the Torah, which is not true for the rest of Noah's descendants. Any time the 613 conflict with the Noahide covenant, the 613 take precedence, as a New Covenant overrides an old one so long as both parties agree. So while refraining from shellfish is part of my heritage, it is not part of yours.

Since Christ, God has covenanted through His Son to ALL people.

You just believe what you want about the Old Covenant, but it says flat out that Israel broke that covenant, while God was faithful.

So you lean onto the Old Covenant which get's you no forgiveness of sin, if you like.

 

[Open Heart]

Now we all have the Bible.

"Now that we have the Bible" we know that Israel was set apart."

 

[Open Heart]

both parties? who would that be?

God and Israel.

 

[Open Heart]

So you are saying that Noah was offering up shelfish and pork on the altars of Genesis 8??

I'm saying that for Noah, what was clean to sacrifice had NO RELATIONSHIP to what was clean to eat.

 

[Open Heart]

Since Christ, God has covenanted through His Son to ALL people.

There is more than one covenant. The Mosaic covenant was only to the People of Israel. Not to the whole world. The Noahide covenant, just as the New Covenant, is to the whole world.