Supersessionism and Antisemitism

[ToBeLoved]

3. The scepter will not depart from Shiloh comes. Christ will come and save Israel and he is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David Revelation 5:5.

I believe it is a remnant of Israel because it says in the Bible that not all who think they are Israel are Israel.

Otherwise I agree with the whole thing.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Since the Holocaust, churches have largely given up Supersessionism, since they have seen too closely where it led.

Show proof of that.

You bring up the most damaging things, I don't think you want peace between Jews and Christians, even Messianic Jews.

I don't think you really know what Supersessionism even is. What does it mean in your own words.

It is appalling some of the things you say.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus has only one bride. Even in Jewish customs a man cannot be married to two brides. The very thought that Christ has a bride called the new covenant church and tagging along is also a mistress that will be an up and coming bride, as the second wife is preposterous indeed.

I think if Christ brings the Jewish people unto Himself that is not another bride. He IS the Bridegroom. Think about it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I totally disagree. The burden of proof is on you. You need to show evidence. I wrote a post that has apostles agreeing with @BobRyan. I agree with him that the woman Israel is the church and she falls under the Kingly High Priest Jesus Christ. What other legitimate Israel as far as God is concerned is there, that is outside of the Monarchy of Christ.

God still has plans for Israel. Why must people think that the Church replaces another group. Yes, we are Christ's Church, but where is the replacement of the lines of the patriarch's?

Israel is mentioned all over the Bible, even Israel becoming a country and the people coming back to it. That's why Christians watch what is going on in Israel.

Also, Christ will eventually rule from Jerusalem. So your going to have a tough time excluding them.

 

[jerry kelso]

I am pretty sure that is a typo

It is supposed to be saints. Thanks. I was in a hurry. Jerry kelso

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. Christians agree with you that they are NC christians.

That's true - and in the actual Bible we find this is what the New Covenant teaches - according to God.


Heb 8
8“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.


Which works out pretty good - because of this

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Not all Christians agree with you that Christians are called the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

Indeed - they like the term "New Covenant" but in a few cases they reject the actual Bible texts that define it.

You were, are, and always will be wrong of your assessment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13.

What "assessment" did I give?

I prefer to simply let the text speak in context... sola scriptura

 

[BobRyan]

God still has plans for Israel. Why must people think that the Church replaces another group. Yes, we are Christ's Church, but where is the replacement of the lines of the patriarch's?

Israel is mentioned all over the Bible, even Israel becoming a country and the people coming back to it. That's why Christians watch what is going on in Israel.

Also, Christ will eventually rule from Jerusalem. So your going to have a tough time excluding them.

God wants Israel to be saved - just like everyone else.

But He no longer uses them as a nation-church of evangelists - as I am sure you admit

 

[BobRyan]

In order to viably challenge that a women is NOT a church, you have to show with clarity that John used the word women to identify a nationalistic kingdom on earth.

By contrast - in the actual Bible a pure woman is the church as Paul states - in 2Cor 11
2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.

And in the bible a church in compromise is an impure woman as James points out in James 4.
4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Bible symbols are explained in the Bible. John uses symbols his readers would already know - as Bible students

Notice you are already behind the eighth ball because John says there appeared a great wonder in heaven, so this pregnant women with the child has its origin from heaven, which means spiritual and coming from God, and her commission is tied at the birth and ascension of the child Jesus Christ.

In Rev 12 the woman (the nation-church of Israel) gives birth to Christ -
In John 4 - Christ said "Salvation is of the JEWS" since the messiah comes from the Jewish nation church.

The point remains.

 

[The Times]

I think if Christ brings the Jewish people unto Himself that is not another bride. He IS the Bridegroom. Think about it.

They have to be grafted to his Church. There is no other bride outside of the bride that is his church. The two olive trees, both Jews and Gentiles are his church, that are the 1st hour workmen that was the apostolic Jewish church all the way through the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 10th hour workmen that is the carry-on to the Gentiles, that is the fullness of the gentiles within Christ's church, until the 11th hour finall rally which will see the Jews come aboard Christ's fishing dragnet, his church to pickup the slack of the day as the 11th hour workmen.

There is only one bride his church and those who are within his church are the workmen. Those outside his church are not his bride.

 

[The Times]

God still has plans for Israel. Why must people think that the Church replaces another group. Yes, we are Christ's Church, but where is the replacement of the lines of the patriarch's?

Israel is mentioned all over the Bible, even Israel becoming a country and the people coming back to it. That's why Christians watch what is going on in Israel.

Also, Christ will eventually rule from Jerusalem. So your going to have a tough time excluding them.

There is only one bride his church. Peter was told to throw the net on the right side of the boat. Note Christ's fishing dragnet is a fisherman's basket that gathers all through the single boat, his church.

So if you have another boat claiming to be a church that has not yet come to Christ is another bride, which is supersession in terms of replacing Christ's one and only bride. To say that God has plans outside of his church for other fish is not scriptural and is in fact replacement theology that tries to replace Christ's legitimate bride with another.

Israel is an earthly nation as opposed to Christ's church which is his heavenly Kingdom. Daniel 2:44 places the establishment of the Kingdom of God and his Christ at the time of the kings within the the 1st century.

Christ established a spiritual Kingdom that has a migration protocol from this earthly temporal life to eternal life in his Father's house. Jesus said.....

2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.” (John 14:2-4)

God hasn't ruled them out as a peoples to come to work in his church as the 11th hour workmen, but as an earthly nation, they were ruled out 2000 years ago.

So the only vehicle of salvation for the Jewish people is through Christ's existing bride his church.

 

[The Times]

The Jews can and are most welcome to abandon their earthly ambitions and to join Christ's church/bride as the 11th hour workmen, since the fulness of the gentiles within the church has come, now its their time to enter the boat/church through Christ's dragnet.

Shiloh/Christ has come and is long gone almost 2000 years ago....

As Jesus said.....

2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

 

[BobRyan]

Most Christians today do NOT agree with you that Christians are the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Since the Holocaust, churches have largely given up Supersessionism, since they have seen too closely where it led.

The strained logic that claims "if God loves Jews the same way He loves you and me - well then that leads to antisemitism and holocaust" - is at best "illusive"

 

[BobRyan]

2. John wrote Revelation about 95 or 96 A.D.

That is true. Then he returned to Ephesus after being released from Patmos where the book of Revelation had been written

 

[BobRyan]

That is one opinion. Another scholarly view is that he wrote it prior to 70 AD and that it is about those events.

Which is false - but does exists as an "opinion" by some scholars - just as you say. Many scholars admit that John was in Patmos in the 90's and was released when the Emperor died that exiled him. What is more in Rev 12 after the church of God gives birth to the Christ - as it had been waiting to do for 4000 years - it went into the wilderness to flee persecution for the 1260 years of the dark ages.

 

[BobRyan]

Help in why the Jews will ignore the WORD of GOD when they set out to rebuildiing the temple and reinstating sacrifices when all have already been declared unclean?

Good point - God would not endorse such a thing.

The woman in Rev 12 - the pure woman - is the pure church of God.

A pure woman is the church as Paul states - in 2Cor 11
2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.

And in the bible a church in compromise is an impure woman as James points out in James 4.
4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God wants Israel to be saved - just like everyone else.

But He no longer uses them as a nation-church of evangelists - as I am sure you admit

We are talking about is there still a role for Israel, Biblically or has the Church under Christ become Israel. That is pretty much the argument.

I know God has a plan for a remnant of Israel and the Church did not take over Israel in God's plan.

 

[BobRyan]

We are talking about is there still a role for Israel, Biblically or has the Church under Christ become Israel. That is pretty much the argument. .

"Salvation is of the JEWs" John 4. That was their ministry -- a nation of priests. "God blesses us so that all the ends of the earth may fear Him" Psalms 67:7 because of course the fear of the Lord is the beginning of true wisdom.

"God so loved the WORLD that He gave..." - God's mission all along was "evangelism" -- not "godless-state-ism just for state-ism's sake."

In Daniel 9 Israel was given 490 years of probation - it took them to the coming of their Messiah - His ministry, death, resurrection and a 2 or 3 years after that (their stoning of Stephen - their final act of rebellion under probation).

Christ pronounced "the end" of their probation in Mattew 23 "behold your house is left unto you desolate" which is the curse of King Solomon that he pronounced at the inauguration of Solomon's temple. Christ said in Matthew 23 the nation would not be restored to Him until the 2nd coming - when too late they see Him coming in vengeance to take the saints and purify the earth.

The result is -- "God loves Jews the same way He loved and tries to save you and me".

In 1Thess 2 Paul said 'They do always fill up the measure of their guilt" - their probation had ended. Their cup was full back then.
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

Still "God loves Jews the same way He loved and tries to save you and me".

 

[The Times]

Jesus Christ is the SEED of promise who came, he is the Shiloh who came as scriptures stated below.....

10The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his. 11He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. (Genesis 49:10-11)

The Kingdom of God to come was never about an earthly nation, but is a priestly people from all nations who are gathered before the ruler/monarch Christ Jesus. So it was about people's being gathered onto Shiloh the ruler who would sit on the throne of David as the anointed most high. These people become joined to a heavenly nation called Israel, where the seed of promise Jesus becomes the Israel of God and those who are gathered by him, his Church is the Israel of God.

The Israel of God became separated from the earthly kingdom of man, when Shiloh took the sceptre and ascended up on high to prepare a place in his Father's house for the many peoples of his heavenly nation Israel.

In summary there is no other earthly nation outside of Christ's priestly heavenly nation that is called Israel as far as God is concerned, for all nations including Judah had been gathered onto him and then the Gentiles were joined to them as the gospel went from Judah, the 1st century apostolic Jewish church to the Gentiles and so the two olive trees became the choice vine in the singular, where Jesus Christ became the living vine of the heavenly nation Israel.

It is God who replaced the earthly nation of man called Israel with a heavenly priestly nation under his crowned monarch Christ Jesus, for all messianic prophesy pointed to Shiloh coming and possessing the sceptre as the rightful ruler of Israel. In this respect Jesus is Israel and those gathered onto him, his church is Israel.

Replacement theology is when people try to circumvent God's rule of law by calling an earthly nation Israel. The church of Christ, his bride cannot be superseded by an earthly nation of men, for Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against his heavenly nation Israel, his church.

That is why in Revelation 11:1 John is told to measure the inner court of the heavenly nation Israel, which is a priestly ministering nation, his church is the two olive trees before God, inclusive of Jews and Gentiles ministering/prophesying the gospel to the unbelieving world as the symbol of the two witnesses.

From Genesis 49:10-11 and Daniel 2:44 and

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

We immediately discern that Shiloh came and was anointed the most Holy, that is the Monarch was Crowned and the heavenly nation was established by blood.

Let me put this in bold, so that no one misses this point.....

The Monarch was Crowned and the heavenly nation was established by blood.

This happened 2000 years ago through the glorification and ascension of Christ into his heavenly Kingdom Israel and the gathering of nations began from the Jewish Apostles that were first gathered onto him as the Jewish remnant 1st century church, then the Gentiles followed in the gathering up to him in heaven.

Jesus isn't going to rule on terra forma, that is on the earth, for he is gathering the people's from all nations onto him to migrate from this temporal life to the eternal life to be with him in his Father's house, which is why he would say......

2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

That place that Jesus ascended up into was certainly not earthly, so we need to acknowledge that Jesus didn't come to rule on earth, as the Jews had originally believed and that is why when he as the Kingly high priest Melchizedek had washed his robe in blood as declared in Genesis 49:10-11, the Jews ruled him out as their King and continue to rule him out as their King to this day.

The only way for Jews as a people to enter the heavenly Kingdom of Israel is if they come through the church and declare blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord.

We need to acknowledge that there is only one nation called the Israel of God and any doctrine outside of this nation that teaches of another nation is in fact replacement theology to the Holy Bible in its entirety. The bride of Christ can not be superseded by an earthly nation that calls itself Israel. If it tries to do so, then this would be identified as the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, that is setting itself up as a replacement to God's true Israel under the crowned monarch Jesus Christ. This could only happen if Christians are forced to worship an earthly religious system, the image of the first beast, that is tied to an earthly nation that had the mortal head wound in 70AD, by installing a fake person posing as Messiah king from earthly Jerusalem, in succession to the six previous kings within the Harodean Dynasty.

If a seventh Harod comes in succession to pose as King, then we know that the end is near, watch out!

The Church is Israel because the Monarch had been crowned 2000 years ago, whether the disobedience of the Jews want to accept it or not, is inconsequential to God and a detriment to the unbelieving Jews. If Jews want to be saved, they must join Christ's church immediately before the closing of probation. I believe that they will much to God's joy and my joy.

 

[Open Heart]

Show proof of that.

You bring up the most damaging things, I don't think you want peace between Jews and Christians, even Messianic Jews.

I don't think you really know what Supersessionism even is. What does it mean in your own words.

It is appalling some of the things you say.

It's a GENERALIZATION that I've seen repeated in many different places over the course of my life. For example, the Catholic Church changed it's entire attitude towards Jews during Vatican II with the document Nostra Aetate--the dominos are still falling from that! Much of what I've read is not online but in books, such as Mark Kinzer's history of Supersessionism. Supersessionism does still exist, but it doesn't hold the stranglehold that it once did. For example, many Christians today believe that God had a hand in Israel becoming a state, and in the victory of the six day war--among Evangelicals these things are even seen as a fulfillment of Prophecy. They believe that Israel will play a large part in the Last Days. IOW, God is NOT "done with Israel." The idea that the Jews as a People are "cursed" and doomed to wander the face of the earth unloved by God is also mostly left behind today. The popularity of such books as "The Hiding Place," where Opa Ten Boom declares that the Jews are "the apple of God's eyes" tends to be the modern Christian view of the People of Israel.

I'm a Jew who is a Christian. It is absurd to accuse me of not wanting peace between Jews and Christians. Ridiculous.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But He no longer uses them as a nation-church of evangelists - as I am sure you admit

Yes. But that is not what Suppersessionism is about, whether or not they are evangelists. This subject goes deeper to the role of Israel in God's end-times plan.