Supernaturalism and science (please help)

David Gould

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Recently, I have been getting into discussions about scientific investigations of the paranormal.

A friend of mine believes that the paranormal can be studied and tested for using scientific methodology.

I have talked to him about falsifiability, but he has then responded by saying that it depends upon which hypothesis you are looking at falsifying.

For example, for the general statement, 'Ghosts exist' I said that it is impossible to falsify that. He then said, 'What about the statement, "Ghosts do not exist"?'

He has confused me at this point.

What is the problem with his argument?
 

h2whoa

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David Gould said:
Recently, I have been getting into discussions about scientific investigations of the paranormal.

A friend of mine believes that the paranormal can be studied and tested for using scientific methodology.

I have talked to him about falsifiability, but he has then responded by saying that it depends upon which hypothesis you are looking at falsifying.

For example, for the general statement, 'Ghosts exist' I said that it is impossible to falsify that. He then said, 'What about the statement, "Ghosts do not exist"?'

He has confused me at this point.

What is the problem with his argument?

The statement "Ghosts do not exist" is the exact opposite of the statement "Ghosts exist". As such the problem, scientifically speaking, is equally reversed in exactly the same way. Where "Ghosts exist" is essentially an unfalsifiable statement (speaking in generalities), "Ghosts do not exist" is an unproveable statement. Strictly speaking, you can't really prove a negative statement such as that. That is why the supernatural is essentially outside the realms of science. All you can say either way is "there is no evidence that ghosts exist" or "the balance of evidence is that ghosts don't exist".

So one statement is essentially non-scientific because it is not falsifiable, whereas the other statement is non-scientific because it is not proveable.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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David Gould said:
Recently, I have been getting into discussions about scientific investigations of the paranormal.

A friend of mine believes that the paranormal can be studied and tested for using scientific methodology.

I have talked to him about falsifiability, but he has then responded by saying that it depends upon which hypothesis you are looking at falsifying.

For example, for the general statement, 'Ghosts exist' I said that it is impossible to falsify that. He then said, 'What about the statement, "Ghosts do not exist"?'

He has confused me at this point.

What is the problem with his argument?



I guess it has to do with the lack of coherent demarkation between "natural" and "supernatural."

 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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David Gould said:
For example, for the general statement, 'Ghosts exist' I said that it is impossible to falsify that. He then said, 'What about the statement, "Ghosts do not exist"?'

He has confused me at this point.

What is the problem with his argument?
His argument actually has some merit. While it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to falsify the statement “Ghosts exist” it should be much easier to falsify the statement “Ghosts do not exist”. In the case of the former statement you should need access to every possible place a ghost may be found in order to falsify the statement. In the later all you have to do is find and scientifically document the existence of one ghost beyond a reasonable doubt and you’re done. Since the later has not been accomplished (which should be the easier one to accomplish) then it’s reasonable to provisionally accept the statement “ghosts do not exist” until such a time that the statement can be falsified.
 
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BVZ

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If you know the one, you automatically know the other.
A = 'Ghosts exist'.
B = 'Ghosts do not exist.'
IF A, then NOT B.
If B, then NOT A.
If A is falsifyable, then so is B.
If B is falsifyable, then so is A.
If A is NOT falsifyable, then so is B.
If B is NOT falsifyable, then so is A.

So basically, he just asked your question right back at you, even though the burden of proof rests on him.
 
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h2whoa

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BVZ said:
If you know the one, you automatically know the other.
A = 'Ghosts exist'.
B = 'Ghosts do not exist.'
IF A, then NOT B.
If B, then NOT A.
If A is falsifyable, then so is B.
If B is falsifyable, then so is A.
If A is NOT falsifyable, then so is B.
If B is NOT falsifyable, then so is A.

So basically, he just asked your question right back at you, even though the burden of proof rests on him.

You're not correct. A is not falsifiable but B is. B is not provable but A is.
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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h2whoa said:
You're not correct. A is not falsifiable but B is. B is not provable but A is.
I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one h2. They are both falsifiable. To falsify the statement “ghosts exist” is just much, much harder. You’d need access to everywhere a ghost could be simultaneously to prove that there are no ghosts there. In order to falsify “ghosts do not exist” all you have to do is find one. So while both are falsifiable it is infinitely more reasonable to try and falsify the later.
 
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h2whoa

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AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:
I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one h2. They are both falsifiable. To falsify the statement “ghosts exist” is just much, much harder. You’d need access to everywhere a ghost could be simultaneously to prove that there are no ghosts there. In order to falsify “ghosts do not exist” all you have to do is find one. So while both are falsifiable it is infinitely more reasonable to try and falsify the later.

No. I still disagree. It is impossible to prove a negative: to prove the hypothesis "ghosts do not exist" is not doable to 100% accuracy. Conversely the 100% falsification of "Ghosts exists" would be the exact same proof of the preceeding negative statement.
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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h2whoa said:
No. I still disagree. It is impossible to prove a negative: to prove the hypothesis "ghosts do not exist" is not doable to 100% accuracy. Conversely the 100% falsification of "Ghosts exists" would be the exact same proof of the preceeding negative statement.
While I would be inclined to agree with you as a matter of practicality (trying to falsify the statement “ghosts exist” is impossible for us to actually accomplish) the statement, from a purely logical perspective can be falsified. Here is a little document on it that says it better than I can:
Richard Carrier said:
I know the myth of "you can't prove a negative" circulates throughout the nontheist community, and it is good to dispel myths whenever we can. As it happens, there really isn't such a thing as a "purely" negative statement, because every negative entails a positive, and vice versa. Thus, "there are no crows in this box" entails "this box contains something other than crows" (in the sense that even "no things" is something, e.g. a vacuum). "Something" is here a set restricted only by excluding crows, such that for every set S there is a set Not-S, and vice versa, so every negative entails a positive and vice versa. And to test the negative proposition one merely has to look in the box: since crows being in the box (p) entails that we would see crows when we look in the box (q), if we find q false, we know that p is false. Thus, we have proved a negative. Of course, we could be mistaken about what we saw, or about what a crow is, or things could have changed after we looked, but within the limits of our knowing anything at all, and given a full understanding of what a proposition means and thus entails, we can easily prove a negative in such a case. This is not "proof" in the same sense as a mathematical proof, which establishes that something is inherent in the meaning of something else (and that therefore the conclusion is necessarily true), but it is proof in the scientific sense and in the sense used in law courts and in everyday life. So the example holds because when p entails q, it means that q is included in the very meaning of p. Whenever you assert p, you are also asserting q (and perhaps also r and s and t). In other words, q is nothing more than an element of p. Thus, all else being as we expect, "there are big green Martians in my bathtub" means if you look in your bathtub you will see big green Martians, so not seeing them means the negative of "there are big green Martians in my bathtub."

Negative statements often make claims that are hard to prove because they make predictions about things we are in practice unable to observe in a finite time. For instance, "there are no big green Martians" means "there are no big green Martians in this or any universe," and unlike your bathtub, it is not possible to look in every corner of every universe, thus we cannot completely test this proposition--we can just look around within the limits of our ability and our desire to expend time and resources on looking, and prove that, where we have looked so far, and within the limits of our knowing anything at all, there are no big green Martians. In such a case we have proved a negative, just not the negative of the sweeping proposition in question.

SOURCE: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html
 
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h2whoa

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AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:
While I would be inclined to agree with you as a matter of practicality (trying to falsify the statement “ghosts exist” is impossible for us to actually accomplish) the statement, from a purely logical perspective can be falsified. Here is a little document on it that says it better than I can...

Nice article which generally I agree with. However there is a fundamental difference between the example in the article and more general arguments that you try to apply it to. That difference is that the crows in the box example has been limited to include very definite parameters:

1)There must be a box
2)The box must be in the presence of the tester, hence the qulaifier "this box".
3)Within that box there must be no crows
4)Crows are a strictly defined variable (namely Corvus brachyrhynchos).

Any deviation from these variables affects the outcome of the predicition "In this box, there are no crows". As follows:

1)There is no box: the statement is invalid.
2)There is no specific box: the may be crows in a box somewhere in the world. The statement has been qualified by "this box" however. Therefore the statement becomes invalid.
3)There is at least 1 crow in the box. The statement is invalid.
4)The term crow is applied to any bird or subset: The statement loses specificity and becomes invalid.

Therefore, the statement has a number of variables which affect the outcome of proof or falsifiability.

If the statment was "there are no crows in a box, anywhere" it immediately has a major qualifier removed. It becomes, to all intents and purposes impossible to prove.

Now the problem with ghosts can be examined as such: "Ghosts do not exist".

1)What is a ghost? Is there a strict definition? Would you classify a non-sentient apparition as a ghost? Is a ghost visible? Is a poltergeist a ghost? And so on.

2)Where is the qualifying parameter of where they do not exist? In a box? In a house? Anywhere on Earth? Anywhere in the Universe? Anywhere in a hypothesised Multiverse? Anywhere on some spiritual plane (we're dealing with ghosts afterall?).

These massive variables make it impossible to prove the statement "Ghosts do not exist".

This all said, I would like to state for the record, that I don't believe that they do!
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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h2whoa said:
…These massive variables make it impossible to prove the statement "Ghosts do not exist".
Which is why I will agree with you as a matter of practicality. It is impossible for us to create the conditions under which the statement “ghosts exist” can be falsified. However, there are theoretically a set of conditions under which the statement can be falsified so, from a purely logical standpoint, it is possible.

In the OP David Gould’s friend proposed falsifying the statement “Ghosts do not exist”. As this is the far more reasonable statement to falsify it is my opinion that his friend has a valid point. Now all anyone has to do to falsify the statement “ghosts do not exist” is find and scientifically document one single ghost beyond a reasonable doubt. Until then it is reasonable to accept the statement “ghosts do not exist” as true until it is falsified.

h2whoa said:
This all said, I would like to state for the record, that I don't believe that they do!
Ditto. :thumbsup:
 
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h2whoa said:
The statement "Ghosts do not exist" is the exact opposite of the statement "Ghosts exist". As such the problem, scientifically speaking, is equally reversed in exactly the same way. Where "Ghosts exist" is essentially an unfalsifiable statement (speaking in generalities), "Ghosts do not exist" is an unproveable statement. Strictly speaking, you can't really prove a negative statement such as that. That is why the supernatural is essentially outside the realms of science. All you can say either way is "there is no evidence that ghosts exist" or "the balance of evidence is that ghosts don't exist".

So one statement is essentially non-scientific because it is not falsifiable, whereas the other statement is non-scientific because it is not proveable.

I am not sure if this is a correction or a clarification, so let's leave it at my 2 cents worth.

To be a real hypothesis, a claim must make some connection to the real world. "Ghosts Exist" is not a hypothesis. Its a statement without any real connection to anything and as such is pretty much useless. No statement shoud be accepted just because someone makes it.

I work in the world of polymer chemistry: plastics. If I were to claim to my co-workers that "we always get sludge from this reaction" it may be a statement but it is not a hypothesis. If I say "we always get sludge because competing side reactions due to catalyst A reduce the yield of the desired product" we now have something to go on. It may or may not be true, but it is now testable.

So this friend needs to make a better hypothesis, something that is more than an empty statement. We need something more along the line of "ghosts exsist because...(claim a,b,c, etc)". In other words, ghosts are the explanation for these phenomema.

Lastly, I would disagree that the supernatural is outside of science. All proponents of the supernatural make claims regarding how their particular entity interacts with the physical world. With a bit of good thinking we can design experiments to test these claims. Yes, even the more esoteric ones.
 
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h2whoa

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DevotiontoBible said:
Because you haven't examined the correct data using the proper method.

This is another reason why it's not scientific. It's based on opinion. Because this your opinion. But my opinion is that you are incorrect.
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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DevotiontoBible said:
Because you haven't examined the correct data using the proper method.
The proper data is empirical data. The proper method is the scientific method. If you have that then I will consider the statement “ghosts do not exist” falsified.
 
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h2whoa

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AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:
Which is why I will agree with you as a matter of practicality. It is impossible for us to create the conditions under which the statement “ghosts exist” can be falsified. However, there are theoretically a set of conditions under which the statement can be falsified so, from a purely logical standpoint, it is possible.

Right. OK. I concede that theoretically a negative could be proven. If everything was known about everything in existance (whatever existance might be...) then yes. So I agree that we are talking practically when we see a negative can't be proven. It is not within our knowledge or ability to do that.

P.S. I do enjoy a good debate! I'm almost disappointed that we've reached a consensus!
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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h2whoa said:
P.S. I do enjoy a good debate! I'm almost disappointed that we've reached a consensus!
Me too. It is to be expected when two rational human beings disagree though. ;)
 
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DevotiontoBible

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h2whoa said:
This is another reason why it's not scientific. It's based on opinion. Because this your opinion. But my opinion is that you are incorrect.

Can you prove to me, scientifically, that the wind exists?
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:
The proper data is empirical data. The proper method is the scientific method. If you have that then I will consider the statement “ghosts do not exist” falsified.

Then prove to me the wind exists.
 
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