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Sunday Sabbath

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Apr 23, 2017.

  1. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any difference between the Christian compilers of the Didache being witnesses to the Apostles' teachings, to the authors of the gospels being witnesses to Yeshua's teachings.
     
  2. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to figure out if he is contrasting a strict observance of the Shabbat with a Sabbath-lite.
     
  3. Henaynei

    Henaynei Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

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    As that may be, I clearly do - the writers of Yeshua's teachings were witnesses or are documented in those writings as being at least disciples of those witnesses. And, their names are firmly attached to those writings.
    The writers of the Didache are totally unknown. Neither their names nor their credentials are known. Additionally what they are teaching about Jews and Jewish believers is in direct conflict with scripture. That alone discounts their veracity in my estimation.
     
  4. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Dissident

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    The same could be said about the author of Hebrews. Also plenty would argue the New Testament in general is against the Old Testament. The didache is an important document for telling us how the early Christians of the late first to mid second centuries perhaps operated in their liturgical lives and what they believed. It actually has a very Jewish character in the way it describes the two ways and seems to rely on Matthew's Gospel for what it says.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
  5. Henaynei

    Henaynei Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

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    if any extra-biblical source conflicts with scripture then it is to be discounted... and this teaching in the Didache conflicts with scripture. Nowhere in scripture did the disciples change the Shabbat to Sunday.
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    What is a "Sabbath-lite"?
     
  7. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    The disciples gathered daily (Act 2:46), not just on the first day of the week. In John 20:26, they were gathering on the third day of the week (Tuesday).

    As for collecting money, 1 Cor.16:2 does not refer to collecting offerings during a Sunday service? If you check Acts 11:27-30 & Romans 15:25-28 you will see that there was a great famine that especially caused hardship for the brethren in Judea and Jerusalem. Paul requested offerings from the Galatian, Corinthian, Macedonian, and Achaian brethren. He told them to gather the goods (food, clothing, etc.) prior to his arrival. He did not want to have to wait for the offerings to be gathered when he came. He then took all the relief items to Jerusalem to disperse to the needy saints. There is nothing in these verses to indicate a typical Sunday collection. It was a one time special collection because of the famine. And it was done on Sunday because of the tremendous amount of work involved in loading all the goods, something they would never have done on Sabbath.

    You are correct that Sunday is not the Sabbath, but "something different". It is a man-made tradition that is exalted in place of YHWH's commanded 7th day Sabbath. It certainly is not wrong to worship on Sunday, but not to the neglect of worshiping on Sabbath as commanded or to the extent of trampling on the Sabbath by doing all manner of forbidden work on YHWH's holy day.
     
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    It was on first fruits/wave sheaf He rose keeping fulfilling the spring feasts with His first coming.
     
  9. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    A non-strict keeping of the Sabbath.
     
  10. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Sabbath is to be kept strictly as Scripture dictates, but not to the extent the Jews kept it in Yeshua's day.
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Then you don't keep Deuteronmy 17:8-13?
     
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I follow Yeshua. He went against the man-made rules of the Jews/judges/priests. They said it was unlawful to heal on the Sabbath and Yeshua went against their rules and healed people on the Sabbath. We do not have to obey unrighteous man-made rules.
     
  13. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I just want to verify: by saying this, you MEAN that you are throwing away the Torah, or at least parts of the Torah such as Deut 17:8-13??? Please provide a clear answer; it is important that we understand each other.

    It was NEVER unlawful to heal on the Sabbath via prayer. There was disagreement on this issue among the Pharisees. Bet Hillel said it was okay. Bet Shammai said not. Jesus was a Pharisee of Bet Hillel, who argued with Bet Shammai.
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Scripture is not specific. How do you determine exactly what "work" is? Is cooking work? How about washing the dishes? What if you water all your plants? Mow the lawn? Can you pay the kids 25 cents to make their beds?

    What about the prohibition against kindling a flame? Some say this is a ceremonial law that no longer applies. Who determines what kindling a flame is? Are you allowed to turn on a stove? How about a microwave?

    The point is, you can't obey Torah without interpretation. For that you need Deut 17:8-13 -- the rulings of the Judges/Pharisees/Rabbis.
     
  15. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I am not throwing away Torah or any part of it. I am rightly assessing, as Yeshua did. If a Jewish judge told you to worship an idol, would you obey him? The judges added to Torah. They had no right to. Their job was to teach and apply Torah. By adding all sorts of commands to the Sabbath, they made it a burden to the people. YHWH never intended Shabbat to be a burden.

    If the Pharisees thought it was OK to heal on the Sabbath via prayer, then why were they so mad at Yeshua in Luke 6:11? In Luke 14:5, he taught the people to work, if necessary, to save life and health. The Jews did as much by helping their animals, but Yeshua was teaching them to help their fellow man as well even if it was the Sabbath.
     
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I'm not sure if you want me to literally answer each of those questions. If so, I will. I apply what Scripture says with what I hear the Spirit saying to me. I do not need an unbeliever that does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to tell me how to obey YHWH's commandments.

    When a Jewish judge decides I can't carry a handkerchief on Sabbath to blow my nose unless it is attached to my garment or adorns me, I need not obey him.
     
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  17. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    But then you have chaos: Judges 21:25 "everyone did what was right in their own eyes." When we follow Torah, we follow Torah as God's people, not as individuals. Israel followed Torah as Israel, and when Achan hid the gold under his tent, God said "ISRAEL has sinned," not Achan has sinned. It is a communal deal -- everyone has the same understanding what is right and wrong, and we support each other. How awful it would be if I decided I was not to watch TV on Shabbat, and then went over to the Rabbi's house to visit, and they had the TV on!
     
  18. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Let's not be ridiculous. What the judges did was put a fence around the Torah, so that those who tended to be tempted wouldn't come too close to breaking a commandment.
     
  19. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Our understanding of what is right and wrong comes from Torah itself, not from man's false interpretation of it. If you want to subject yourself to all the man made laws in the Talmud, go right ahead. I am free from that.
     
  20. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    So when does the fence become too far from the original command?
     
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