Suicide - What does the Bible say?

[Grace2022]

Consider what it says at this link, read the whole thing: What the Bible Says about Suicide - Prayer Against Depression

Hi Dave,
yes I have read this and it is excellent. It confirs my own thinking. Thank you very much. X

 

[Oldmantook]

In your eschatology the mark of the beast is future. In my eschatology the mark of the beast was agreeing to worship the emperor once a year, and happened at the time Revelation was written.

It really doesn't matter what your eschatology is - or mine for that matter. The fact is the saints "were" - or "will be" present at the mark of the beast. If you bother to read Rev 14:12, the saints are referenced in this context and are admonished to endure, obey and remain faithful to Jesus rather than worship the beast and accept the mark. So if the saints at that time didn't remain faithful to Jesus and instead worshiped the emperor as you believe, they suffer eternal torment. Your belief in eternal security is refuted by the text irrespective of your eschatology.

 

[Dave G.]

Sorry but a nuanced reply evades my simple question. Repentance is required for forgiveness even after one is saved. That's why Paul in Romans warned that grace is not a license do sin. That is why suicide is not forgiveable because the dead person can't repent. Your view is rather simple to disprove. Since you believe that "you are safe in the hands of Jesus" then see what happens when you or any other Christian takes the mark of the beast. Does the Bible say you will be safe then?

This a point of contention for me too Oldmantook, regardless of the belief out there in baptist and non denom etc. It seems clear to me that even saved people need to be confessed up to date. However, it's questionable as to effect salvation ( white throne judgement) vs where we stand in heaven ( Judgement seat of Christ ). These are clearly two different judgements, one to the believer judged for good and bad, the other for everyone even the sea gives up it's dead and land in the lake of fire. Clearly a difference, So I'm not seeing this as simple and certainly worth deeper study..

 

[Oldmantook]

This a point of contention for me too Oldmantook, regardless of the belief out there in baptist and non denom etc. It seems clear to me that even saved people need to be confessed up to date. However, it's questionable as to effect salvation ( white throne judgement) vs where we stand in heaven ( Judgement seat of Christ ). These are clearly two different judgements, one to the believer judged for good and bad, the other for everyone even the sea gives up it's dead and land in the lake of fire. Clearly a difference, So I'm not seeing this as simple and certainly worth deeper study..

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that for the Christian, confession of sin, or lack thereof my affect either their salvific status or perhaps their rewards. I believe it is the former. In the context of Rev 14:9-12 if a saint or any other person takes the mark, he/she "drinks the wine of God's fury" (v.10) and "tormented with burning sulphur" (v.10). Their "torment rises forever and ever" (v.11) and "there is no rest" (v.11). This passage is descriptive of the lake of fire rather than simply loss of reward for the believer.
In Rom 8:13 Paul warns the brethren in Rome that IF they live according to the flesh, they will die but IF they live according to the Spirit, they will live. Paul cannot be referring to physical death here because everyone physically dies no matter if they live according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. Paul is stating that if a brother lives according to the flesh manifested by a life of disobedience, he will spiritually die and thus lose his salvation. He has a choice as indicated by the word IF which is also conditional as salvation is conditional - not unconditional as many Christians are taught and believe. Paul's warning cannot be construed as to apply to nonbelievers as they are unregenerated by the Spirit and as sinners they have no choice but to sin. If is not a matter of if they sin, they will sin. Only believers have the choice whether to be sinning or not.
Lastly, notice Jude v.12 refers to those men who are "twice dead." We know that this cannot refer to physical death because a man is appointed to death once, and after that to face judgment (Heb 9:27). Twice dead therefore can only refer to spiritual death. How does someone become spiritually dead twice? The only way is for a person who is spiritually dead (unsaved) to become a saved Christian and be made alive in Christ. That Christian then lives according to the flesh which Paul warned against in Rom 8:13 and is made spiritually dead. Unless he repents and turns around, he is now "twice-dead."

 

[Dave G.]

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that for the Christian, confession of sin, or lack thereof my affect either their salvific status or perhaps their rewards. I believe it is the former. In the context of Rev 14:9-12 if a saint or any other person takes the mark, he/she "drinks the wine of God's fury" (v.10) and "tormented with burning sulphur" (v.10). Their "torment rises forever and ever" (v.11) and "there is no rest" (v.11). This passage is descriptive of the lake of fire rather than simply loss of reward for the believer.
In Rom 8:13 Paul warns the brethren in Rome that IF they live according to the flesh, they will die but IF they live according to the Spirit, they will live. Paul cannot be referring to physical death here because everyone physically dies no matter if they live according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. Paul is stating that if a brother lives according to the flesh manifested by a life of disobedience, he will spiritually die and thus lose his salvation. He has a choice as indicated by the word IF which is also conditional as salvation is conditional - not unconditional as many Christians are taught and believe. Paul's warning cannot be construed as to apply to nonbelievers as they are unregenerated by the Spirit and as sinners they have no choice but to sin. If is not a matter of if they sin, they will sin. Only believers have the choice whether to be sinning or not.
Lastly, notice Jude v.12 refers to those men who are "twice dead." We know that this cannot refer to physical death because a man is appointed to death once, and after that to face judgment (Heb 9:27). Twice dead therefore can only refer to spiritual death. How does someone become spiritually dead twice? The only way is for a person who is spiritually dead (unsaved) to become a saved Christian and be made alive in Christ. That Christian then lives according to the flesh which Paul warned against in Rom 8:13 and is made spiritually dead. Unless he repents and turns around, he is now "twice-dead."

Well as I said not so simple.

But it's impossible for common man, even in believers to not be sinners except through Jesus. God is perfection, we are imperfection, which is why He sent His Son. Your scenario is like giving someone a fighting chance and then tying their hands and feet up together. We can't do it . It has to be the blood of Christ. We sin we repent through Him, it might be repeated. The concept is we turn from known sin, I don't know about you but I knew perfectly well what the big sins were when I came to Jesus. And I turned from them and moved on , I might say too, a changed man big time. But the little ones I might never know, those were forgiven as well. But repeating them might be an unknown to me.

If you believe Paul then Jesus fulfilled the Law. Romans 10:4 English Standard Version
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

 

[Oldmantook]

Well as I said not so simple.

But it's impossible for common man, even in believers to not be sinners except through Jesus. God is perfection, we are imperfection, which is why He sent His Son. Your scenario is like giving someone a fighting chance and then tying their hands and feet up together. We can't do it . It has to be the blood of Christ. We sin we repent through Him, it might be repeated. The concept is we turn from known sin, I don't know about you but I knew perfectly well what the big sins were when I came to Jesus. And I turned from them and moved on , I might say too, a changed man big time. But the little ones I might never know, those were forgiven as well. But repeating them might be an unknown to me.

If you believe Paul then Jesus fulfilled the Law. Romans 10:4 English Standard Version
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

If you know how to find out the Greek verb tenses, then I would encourage you to do so as this is critical. Many scriptures promising eternal life have verb/participle tenses in the Greek present tense -which denote ongoing action. So for example in Jn 3:16, the Greek word translated for "believe" is in the present tense so pisteuo is more accurately translated as "believing". As long as a Christian is believing or continuing to believe, he has eternal life. If he for any reason, ceases to believe then eternal life is no longer his. Same thing with Heb 5:9 as it states that eternal life is given to all who "obey" Him. This verb is in the present tense so all believers must continue to obey Christ in order to keep on having eternal life. If one ceases in obeying, then eternal life is no longer possessed.
It is true that no one obeys perfectly as no one is without sin as the scriptures make it clear that we all sin. However, the scriptures distinguish between occasional sin and habitual sin. The former is forgiveable while the latter is not. So for example, if you or I have the habit of viewing inappropriate contentography which is habitual sin, there is no guarantee that we are still saved. That is why Paul wrote in Rom 8:13 that if you LIVE ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, YOU WILL DIE. "Live" in this verse is from the Greek word zēte which is a present tense verb accurately translated as "living." If one is presently LIVING a life of sinning (i.e. inappropriate contentography or any other habitual sin) and disobedience to God then YOU WILL DIE spiritually according to Paul.
The cleansing blood of Jesus is only applied to those Christians who "walk in the light" according to 1 Jn 1:7. IF we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin. Note that this verse states "if" which indicates both a condition and a possibility - not certainty. Not all Christians choose to walk in the light so when they sin, the blood of Jesus cannot be applied to them. However, if a Christian chooses to walk in the light in obedience, when when he occasionally sins, upon repentance Jesus' blood purifies him from sin.
As you have already repented from your big known sins, God in the ongoing sanctification process will continue to bring to your remembrance those sins that you may be unaware of as you continue to grow in your likeness to Him who is able.

 

[Dave G.]

If you know how to find out the Greek verb tenses, then I would encourage you to do so as this is critical. Many scriptures promising eternal life have verb/participle tenses in the Greek present tense -which denote ongoing action. So for example in Jn 3:16, the Greek word translated for "believe" is in the present tense so pisteuo is more accurately translated as "believing". As long as a Christian is believing or continuing to believe, he has eternal life. If he for any reason, ceases to believe then eternal life is no longer his. Same thing with Heb 5:9 as it states that eternal life is given to all who "obey" Him. This verb is in the present tense so all believers must continue to obey Christ in order to keep on having eternal life. If one ceases in obeying, then eternal life is no longer possessed.
It is true that no one obeys perfectly as no one is without sin as the scriptures make it clear that we all sin. However, the scriptures distinguish between occasional sin and habitual sin. The former is forgiveable while the latter is not. So for example, if you or I have the habit of viewing inappropriate contentography which is habitual sin, there is no guarantee that we are still saved. That is why Paul wrote in Rom 8:13 that if you LIVE ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, YOU WILL DIE. "Live" in this verse is from the Greek word zēte which is a present tense verb accurately translated as "living." If one is presently LIVING a life of sinning (i.e. inappropriate contentography or any other habitual sin) and disobedience to God then YOU WILL DIE spiritually according to Paul.
The cleansing blood of Jesus is only applied to those Christians who "walk in the light" according to 1 Jn 1:7. IF we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin. Note that this verse states "if" which indicates both a condition and a possibility - not certainty. Not all Christians choose to walk in the light so when they sin, the blood of Jesus cannot be applied to them. However, if a Christian chooses to walk in the light in obedience, when when he occasionally sins, upon repentance Jesus' blood purifies him from sin.
As you have already repented from your big known sins, God in the ongoing sanctification process will continue to bring to your remembrance those sins that you may be unaware of as you continue to grow in your likeness to Him who is able.

Yes in another thread I mentioned to someone how it isn't such an easy cross from Greek or Hebrew to English and all we have are translations. Sometimes there are two or three English words that could be used from the original. He uses E Sword software, I use books, one of my pastors also uses E Sword and from his teaching believes we are saved unconditionally. If you don't mind, what English version are you reading from?

Incidentally I've quoted from 8:13 in the past at bible study and no one flinched from eternally saved but you could fall from fellowship with the spirit till restored.. And actually when I get fleshy I can feel that fall. I've always been restored. None the less I will investigate deeper what you have written.

I'm an advocate of regularly confessing and if something should happen to be going on in me I pray for the help to get clear of it. In my experience as well,is things He really doesn't want in our lives or mine at least, He arranges for removal, sometimes uncomfortably !

 

[Hieronymus]

I believe the soul of one who takes their own life is in eternal torment. That person will not go to heaven. Am I right? Or wrong? It's just my understanding.[/quote[Sounds more like an assumption than an understanding.

I want to know what the scriptures say.

So do i.
But a.f.a.i.k. it says nothing about suicide.

I have an atheist friend who says how can God, if he exists, and who is a loving God, possibly condemn a person to eternal damnation because they were in such pain they chose suicide?

And i think your atheist friend is right.
By the way, eternal damnation or everlasting punishment is not the same as everlasting punishING.
Eternal (conscious) life is conditional: John 3:16

I replied that the person condemned themselves. God does not punish, people punish themselves. Am I right?

That's an often used excuse used to be able to blame the unsaved for eternal conscious torment.
But do you think they torture themselves?
Why would they do that?
No, the eternal torment / torture (practically synonymous) is inflicted upon them.
Apparently God facilitates this, if it were true.
Now where's the justice in that?
It's infinitely disproportionate to the mere 80 years in the flesh where they didn't 'hear the Word'.
Also, justice is never done when the punishing lasts eternally.

So, to settle the argument, what is the teaching of the Bible on suicide and the fate of said souls please?

I just replied to your OP, i'll be reading this topic hoping for an answer too.

 

[Hieronymus]

It is wrong to encourage people to commit suicide, yes. But even if the Bible doesn't teach that suicide leads to hell, we should also teach people what it means to have a meaningful relationship with God. I know, because I've struggled with suicide and pursuing Jesus in my life has cured me of that. I live for Him because I know He has a plan for my life, as He does for everyone else who struggles with suicide.

This belief and me not wanting to die before my mother dies is what keeps me going on in this life.
But also the fear of the consequences of suicide, which is an unknown.
But i struggle with suicidal thoughts and (obviously) depression too.
I'm waiting for God to do something in my life, but maybe He is waiting for me to do something, but i have no clue as to what to do....

 

[Dave G.]

This belief and me not wanting to die before my mother dies is what keeps me going on in this life.
But also the fear of the consequences of suicide, which is an unknown.
But i struggle with suicidal thoughts and (obviously) depression too.
I'm waiting for God to do something in my life, but maybe He is waiting for me to do something, but i have no clue as to what to do....

Sometimes, regardless of what the thing is, we have to make the first step, then Jesus meets us in the midst of it. Course He is just to guide us, be that for or against the thing. In the case of suicide he obviously would not lead you towards it but might help you on a guided path away from it once you show a willing step.

 

[Hieronymus]

So although you acknowledge that "we shouldn't do any of the sins, including suicide" - but instead if we choose to do them, does that mean we're still saved? Isn't that what Paul preached against in Romans when he stated that grace is not a license to sin? One can always genuinely repent after sinning and thus receive mercy. The problem with suicide though is that repentance is not possible since one is already dead.

It is however a total 'turning from the flesh'. And the flesh must die, musn't it?
Still, i don't think suicide is 'okay' though.
It seems to me it is a lack of faith in God actually, because He promises to look after us, so we should endure life.
But what if you're convinced God does nothing in / with your life on earth?

 

[Hieronymus]

Sorry but a nuanced reply evades my simple question. Repentance is required for forgiveness even after one is saved. That's why Paul in Romans warned that grace is not a license do sin. That is why suicide is not forgiveable because the dead person can't repent.

Hmm... There is only one unforgivable sin, and suicide is not it.
And what if the suicider did repent already?

 

[Dave G.]

But what if you're convinced God does nothing in / with your life on earth?

Seems to me that if someone is convinced of that then they don't really have the faith. He works in our lives because of our faith. And what is faith but believing without seeing. Trust in the Lord with all your heart mind and soul/strength Proverbs 3:5, He then is just to work in us and in our lives.

Another verse I like is "Draw nearer to Him and He will draw nearer to you"
James 4:8 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

 

[Dave G.]

Hmm... There is only one unforgivable sin, and suicide is not it.
And what if the suicider did repent already?

Repent in advance , then do it anyway ? Kind of an oxymoron isn't it ?

 

[Hieronymus]

Repent in advance , then do it anyway ? Kind of an oxymoron isn't it ?

Repentance of sins and the flesh, yet finding life unbearable and choosing to end it in desparation.

 

[Dave G.]

Repentance of sins and the flesh, yet finding life unbearable and choosing to end it in desparation.

He can help you move your mind elsewhere but you must approach Him in faith.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes in another thread I mentioned to someone how it isn't such an easy cross from Greek or Hebrew to English and all we have are translations. Sometimes there are two or three English words that could be used from the original. He uses E Sword software, I use books, one of my pastors also uses E Sword and from his teaching believes we are saved unconditionally. If you don't mind, what English version are you reading from?

Incidentally I've quoted from 8:13 in the past at bible study and no one flinched from eternally saved but you could fall from fellowship with the spirit till restored.. And actually when I get fleshy I can feel that fall. I've always been restored. None the less I will investigate deeper what you have written.

I'm an advocate of regularly confessing and if something should happen to be going on in me I pray for the help to get clear of it. In my experience as well,is things He really doesn't want in our lives or mine at least, He arranges for removal, sometimes uncomfortably !

I read from a few versions when I'm studying so I can compare. I also refer to a Greek interlinear for parsing verbs. In terms of English Bibles, the Berean Literal Bible and Young's Literal Translation do a better job that most in accurately translating the Greek verbs. Also in the KJV, the "th" endings are the equivalent of "ing" in modern English.

Yes, I've found that most Christians believe in unconditional salvation which in my opinion is tragic. My seminary professors who were Reformed in their theology taught eternal security so that is what I believed for a long time. Only after several years of my own study, was I forced to change my view from unconditional to conditional security.
Since your pastor believes in unconditional security, propose this to him: If he were forced to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast, would he take it? That seems like a ridiculous question but I think it highlights the weakness of his view. The options are:
Yes, he would take it because as a believer he is secure in his salvation and can never lose it. This option however goes against what Scripture teaches happens to anyone who accepts the mark.
No, don't take it because of the consequences spelled out in Rev 14. This option nullifies his belief that a regenerate believer can never lose his salvation.
Yes, take it but it would simply mean that he was never a believer in the first place. This option calls into question his present salvific status which I imagine would be unsettling to him as I'm sure he considers himself to be a believer.
And if he answers that the question is irrelevant by claiming that the saints aren't around on the earth at that time because they are all raptured to heaven, do not neglect to notice Rev 14:12 "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." Whether these are the church-age saints or the tribulation saints is subject to another debate but the fact remains the saints are referenced in this context and are admonished to endure, obey and remain faithful to Jesus rather than worship the beast and accept the mark.

Out of respect for the OP, I don't want to get further off topic so if you would want to discuss further, feel free to message me anytime.

 

[Oldmantook]

Hmm... There is only one unforgivable sin, and suicide is not it.
And what if the suicider did repent already?

How can you repent if you did not yet sin? One can repent after one has already sinned. Obviously with suicide, that is impossible.

 

[Hieronymus]

How can you repent if you did not yet sin? One can repent after one has already sinned. Obviously with suicide, that is impossible.

I explained what i meant earlier.
Suicide - What does the Bible say?

 

[Oldmantook]

I explained what i meant earlier.
Suicide - What does the Bible say?

Sorry, but that is not the biblical definition of repentance as ending one's life in desparation is by no means descriptive of repentance. You can choose to believe it is but Scripture dictates otherwise. Repentance means a change of mind toward sin and behavior which corresponds to a changed mind. One cannot change one's mind after one has committed suicide.