Suicide - Fatal Sin?

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I know this is from a OSAS site...

http://christiananswers.net/q-dml/suicide-and-heaven.html

...but I was wondering what you all think about this topic. If someone kills themselves, they don't have a chance to repent, so they go to Hell?

Thoughts?

Excerpt:

Augustine argued in the fifth century that suicide was a violation of the sixth commandment, "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Later, Thomas Aquinas, being catholic and believing that confession of sin must be made prior to departure from the world to the next, taught that suicide was the most fatal of all sins because the victim could not repent of it. The problem with his view is that it represents a gross misunderstanding of eternal security, which Scripture clearly teaches. We are saved by the grace of God, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and nothing can separate a Christian from the love of God (Romans 8:37-39).
Other verses that clearly teach assurance of salvation for the believer are:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
-John 5:24

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."
-John 10:27-29

"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."
-1 John 5:11-13
 

KC Catholic

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The souls of all the departed go to the merciful hands of God for judgment. The very best thing we can do is to pray in hope and trust in God. In particular, prayers offered through the mass are an especially excellent way to be of real assistance to the dead.
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by s0uljah
Later, Thomas Aquinas, being catholic and believing that confession of sin must be made prior to departure from the world to the next, taught that suicide was the most fatal of all sins because the victim could not repent of it. The problem with his view is that it represents a gross misunderstanding of eternal security, which Scripture clearly teaches.

St. Thomas' view is only a gross misunderstanding of eternal security because eternal security itself is a gross misunderstanding of the Scriptures. What they've said in that article is nothing but polemic and blatantly ignores verses which clearly show that there is no such thing as "eternal security" (I guess eternal security can be found in the Bible if said person sticks their head in the sand in regards to other Scripture verses).

Do those who commit suicide go to hell? I'd say we don't know, nor should we try to know. The Church has never stated that any individual is in Hell (not even Judas). Rather, the Church is more than willing to allow judgement to be placed on individuals by God and God alone.

If I was pressed for an answer, I'd say you'd have to take it on a case by case basis.
 
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pax

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Of course offering masses up for the dead only help the Holy Souls in Purgatory. Once a soul is condemned to Hell it stayes there forever.

s0uljah, the Catholic Church teaches that faith and works are necessary for salvation:

James 2:14-26

14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


The Catholic viewpoint is that if someone were to die in a state of Mortal sin and did not repent Catholics believe that soul is condemned. I would say suicide constitutes a grave offense, but more than that is necessary for mortal sin. In the end only God knows what exactly caused the tragic event to happen. If one dies with venial sins on the soul, that soul will go to Heaven, but takes a detour and stops at Purgatory for a period of time, then is admitted into heaven.

Here's the Catechism on Suicide:

Suicide


2280
Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.


2281
Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.


2282
If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.


2283
We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
 
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VOW

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To Souljah:

The majority of people who commit suicide are deeply troubled, suffering from extreme depression. Oftentimes, if there is a successful intervention, the person will later express true regret at the THOUGHT of suicide, and be grateful for the interruption.

God certainly understands our pain. We trust in His almighty mercy and justice. The family members who are left after someone kills him/herself are grieved beyond words. They feel so helpless and of course are buried under "what if" scenarios. It is heaping misery upon misery to even consider that their loved one is eternally damned.

Years and years ago, suicides were not even permitted to be buried in a consecrated cemetery. Fortunately, the Church takes a much more compassionate stand now.

The ONLY suicides I would consider to be under the jeopardy of Hell would be the terrorist suicide bombers, who are willing to die for their "cause."


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by VOW
Years and years ago, suicides were not even permitted to be buried in a consecrated cemetery. Fortunately, the Church takes a much more compassionate stand now.

Thanks Vow.

I thought the Church didn't change its teachings? Or was it not the Pope changing his mind??
 
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LilyLamb

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My personal experience has been that those I know who have committed or attempted to commit suicide were on some form of medication and were not in their right mind to make a rational decision about anything. As VOW said, if they are helped they usually repent of the "thought". Unfortunately one gentleman from a church I use to attend did commit suicide - this man, if you could hear his solos you would know how much he loved the Lord - the medication he was led to his suicide. A dear friend of mine attempted suicide but was successfully revived - when she had that "feeling" again she immediately had herself committed to the hospital.

Last month I was coming off of a prescription and my body was so aggitated and in the worse pain/torment I have ever been through that the "thought" very strongely occured to me - I immediately threw the rest of the pills away (was suppose to go off of it gradually) and endured the remainer of the week - I spent a great deal of time in prayer and had others praying for me - it was my "saving grace".


I thought I would share that with you as an example of why we should not judge the soul of another person.
 
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Originally posted by JeTmAn
Hmm...this is unclear to me. What does the Catholic church teach about salvation? Once you become saved, are you always saved or can something undo your salvation? I know Protestant churches teach that salvation is permanent.

You can lose your salvation.
 
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Originally posted by aggie03
I have two questions:

First, where in the Bible does it say that there is a difference between the types of sins that we commit?

It doesn't, but not everything about God is in the Bible. The "bible" is actually a collection of writings that the early Catholic church put together. But the other part of the Catholic teachings comes from what is called "tradition," as well as divine insight granted to the Pope.


Originally posted by aggie03
Second, where in the Bible does it say that our salvation in unconditional? [/B]

It doesn't. The idea of unconditional salvation is a distortion of some of the scripture, and is taught by the Protestant churches.
 
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VOW

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Actually, the Bible DOES differentiate between types of sins. In 1 John 5: 16-17, John talks of deadly sin and non-deadly sin. In Galatians, Paul LISTS sins which can cause you to lose the Kingdom of God.

And Jetman: not ALL Protestant Churches teach "Once Saved, Always Saved." In fact, a recent decision by the Assembly of God officials states that salvation can be jeopardized.

I think the OSAS school of thought is an offshoot of Martin Luther's "Sola Fide."


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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kern

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Originally posted by aggie03
I have two questions:

First, where in the Bible does it say that there is a difference between the types of sins that we commit?

Try the Old Testament, where different sins required different levels of punishment and reconciliation. If all sins were the same then every sin would have had the same punishment.

Also, look at John 19:11. Jesus speaks of "the greater sin", which wouldn't make sense if all sins were the same.

-Chris
 
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JeTmAn

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The vast majority of Protestant churches teach eternal salvation. I was generalizing about Protestant churches because nearly all of them take that stance. This is certainly not a "sad" stance, in my opinion, since it seems to me that a salvation that can be lost is solely based on works. I don't want to get into a debate about it, but my position on it is that if you can keep losing and regaining your salvation based on what you DO, that's a works-based religion and not Biblical. That's what I believe, anyway.
 
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pax

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Originally posted by JeTmAn
... that's a works-based religion and not Biblical....

Actually I believe that the bible teaches faith and works are necessary.

James 2:14-26

14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Matthew 25:31-36
31
14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44
18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

In the above verses Jesus seems to divide the nations based on their works not by faith. The goats did not do works of charity towards their neighbor and were punished for it.
 
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JeTmAn

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Originally posted by pax


Actually I believe that the bible teaches faith and works are necessary.

James 2:14-26



Matthew 25:31-36


In the above verses Jesus seems to divide the nations based on their works not by faith. The goats did not do works of charity towards their neighbor and were punished for it.

I never said works weren't important. Of course they are. But determining your salvation BASED only on your works is not Biblical, imo. If a person has true faith, their fruit will show and their works will be evident. If their works are not evident, they never HAD true faith, they didn't lose it. That's what I believe.
 
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VOW

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To Jetman:

But determining your salvation BASED only on your works is not Biblical

Salvation in the Catholic Church has NEVER been based "only" on one's own works.

Salvation is by faith through grace.



Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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