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Suicide - Fatal Sin?

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Chris†opher Paul, Jun 12, 2002.

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  1. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    I know this is from a OSAS site...

    http://christiananswers.net/q-dml/suicide-and-heaven.html

    ...but I was wondering what you all think about this topic. If someone kills themselves, they don't have a chance to repent, so they go to Hell?

    Thoughts?

    Excerpt:

    Augustine argued in the fifth century that suicide was a violation of the sixth commandment, "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Later, Thomas Aquinas, being catholic and believing that confession of sin must be made prior to departure from the world to the next, taught that suicide was the most fatal of all sins because the victim could not repent of it. The problem with his view is that it represents a gross misunderstanding of eternal security, which Scripture clearly teaches. We are saved by the grace of God, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and nothing can separate a Christian from the love of God (Romans 8:37-39).
    Other verses that clearly teach assurance of salvation for the believer are:

    "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
    -John 5:24

    "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."
    -John 10:27-29

    "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."
    -1 John 5:11-13
     
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  2. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

    +76
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    The souls of all the departed go to the merciful hands of God for judgment. The very best thing we can do is to pray in hope and trust in God. In particular, prayers offered through the mass are an especially excellent way to be of real assistance to the dead.
     
  3. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,247
    Catholic
    St. Thomas' view is only a gross misunderstanding of eternal security because eternal security itself is a gross misunderstanding of the Scriptures. What they've said in that article is nothing but polemic and blatantly ignores verses which clearly show that there is no such thing as "eternal security" (I guess eternal security can be found in the Bible if said person sticks their head in the sand in regards to other Scripture verses).

    Do those who commit suicide go to hell? I'd say we don't know, nor should we try to know. The Church has never stated that any individual is in Hell (not even Judas). Rather, the Church is more than willing to allow judgement to be placed on individuals by God and God alone.

    If I was pressed for an answer, I'd say you'd have to take it on a case by case basis.
     
  4. pax

    pax Veteran

    +94
    Catholic
    Single
    Of course offering masses up for the dead only help the Holy Souls in Purgatory. Once a soul is condemned to Hell it stayes there forever.

    s0uljah, the Catholic Church teaches that faith and works are necessary for salvation:


    The Catholic viewpoint is that if someone were to die in a state of Mortal sin and did not repent Catholics believe that soul is condemned. I would say suicide constitutes a grave offense, but more than that is necessary for mortal sin. In the end only God knows what exactly caused the tragic event to happen. If one dies with venial sins on the soul, that soul will go to Heaven, but takes a detour and stops at Purgatory for a period of time, then is admitted into heaven.

    Here's the Catechism on Suicide:

     
  5. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Thanks
     
  6. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Souljah:

    The majority of people who commit suicide are deeply troubled, suffering from extreme depression. Oftentimes, if there is a successful intervention, the person will later express true regret at the THOUGHT of suicide, and be grateful for the interruption.

    God certainly understands our pain. We trust in His almighty mercy and justice. The family members who are left after someone kills him/herself are grieved beyond words. They feel so helpless and of course are buried under "what if" scenarios. It is heaping misery upon misery to even consider that their loved one is eternally damned.

    Years and years ago, suicides were not even permitted to be buried in a consecrated cemetery. Fortunately, the Church takes a much more compassionate stand now.

    The ONLY suicides I would consider to be under the jeopardy of Hell would be the terrorist suicide bombers, who are willing to die for their "cause."


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  7. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Thanks Vow.

    I thought the Church didn't change its teachings? Or was it not the Pope changing his mind??
     
  8. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Souljah:

    I think it was a change from a better understanding of mental illness.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  9. LilyLamb

    LilyLamb The Lord is My Shepherd

    588
    +1
    My personal experience has been that those I know who have committed or attempted to commit suicide were on some form of medication and were not in their right mind to make a rational decision about anything. As VOW said, if they are helped they usually repent of the "thought". Unfortunately one gentleman from a church I use to attend did commit suicide - this man, if you could hear his solos you would know how much he loved the Lord - the medication he was led to his suicide. A dear friend of mine attempted suicide but was successfully revived - when she had that "feeling" again she immediately had herself committed to the hospital.

    Last month I was coming off of a prescription and my body was so aggitated and in the worse pain/torment I have ever been through that the "thought" very strongely occured to me - I immediately threw the rest of the pills away (was suppose to go off of it gradually) and endured the remainer of the week - I spent a great deal of time in prayer and had others praying for me - it was my "saving grace".


    I thought I would share that with you as an example of why we should not judge the soul of another person.
     
  10. JeTmAn

    JeTmAn Guitar Geek

    117
    +0
    Hmm...this is unclear to me. What does the Catholic church teach about salvation? Once you become saved, are you always saved or can something undo your salvation? I know Protestant churches teach that salvation is permanent.
     
  11. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    I have two questions:

    First, where in the Bible does it say that there is a difference between the types of sins that we commit?

    Second, where in the Bible does it say that our salvation in unconditional?
     
  12. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    You can lose your salvation.
     
  13. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    It doesn't, but not everything about God is in the Bible. The "bible" is actually a collection of writings that the early Catholic church put together. But the other part of the Catholic teachings comes from what is called "tradition," as well as divine insight granted to the Pope.


    It doesn't. The idea of unconditional salvation is a distortion of some of the scripture, and is taught by the Protestant churches.
     
  14. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    Actually, the Bible DOES differentiate between types of sins. In 1 John 5: 16-17, John talks of deadly sin and non-deadly sin. In Galatians, Paul LISTS sins which can cause you to lose the Kingdom of God.

    And Jetman: not ALL Protestant Churches teach "Once Saved, Always Saved." In fact, a recent decision by the Assembly of God officials states that salvation can be jeopardized.

    I think the OSAS school of thought is an offshoot of Martin Luther's "Sola Fide."


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  15. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Try the Old Testament, where different sins required different levels of punishment and reconciliation. If all sins were the same then every sin would have had the same punishment.

    Also, look at John 19:11. Jesus speaks of "the greater sin", which wouldn't make sense if all sins were the same.

    -Chris
     
  16. Miss Shelby

    Miss Shelby Legend

    +2,966
    Catholic
    Private

    Not all of them, JeTmAn, but sadly enough most of them.

    Michelle
     
  17. JeTmAn

    JeTmAn Guitar Geek

    117
    +0
    The vast majority of Protestant churches teach eternal salvation. I was generalizing about Protestant churches because nearly all of them take that stance. This is certainly not a "sad" stance, in my opinion, since it seems to me that a salvation that can be lost is solely based on works. I don't want to get into a debate about it, but my position on it is that if you can keep losing and regaining your salvation based on what you DO, that's a works-based religion and not Biblical. That's what I believe, anyway.
     
  18. pax

    pax Veteran

    +94
    Catholic
    Single
    Actually I believe that the bible teaches faith and works are necessary.

    James 2:14-26

    Matthew 25:31-36
    In the above verses Jesus seems to divide the nations based on their works not by faith. The goats did not do works of charity towards their neighbor and were punished for it.
     
  19. JeTmAn

    JeTmAn Guitar Geek

    117
    +0
    I never said works weren't important. Of course they are. But determining your salvation BASED only on your works is not Biblical, imo. If a person has true faith, their fruit will show and their works will be evident. If their works are not evident, they never HAD true faith, they didn't lose it. That's what I believe.
     
  20. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Jetman:

    Salvation in the Catholic Church has NEVER been based "only" on one's own works.

    Salvation is by faith through grace.



    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
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