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Halbhh

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A station that will cover both sides equally, so that you see all that is said, instead of only part, as some networks would give.

Instead, the whole, without censoring.

For that, I recommend a sure thing: PBS, which often will have more than 1 channel available, and here it's on the 2nd PBS channel.

Here's a link to the national PBS stream for those that want it by streaming:
WATCH LIVE: Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump | January 23
 
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steve78

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A station that will cover both sides equally, so that you see all that is said, instead of only part, as some networks would give.

Instead, the whole, without censoring.

For that, I recommend a sure thing: PBS, which often will have more than 1 channel available, and here it's on the 2nd PBS channel.

Here's a link to the national PBS stream for those that want it by streaming:
WATCH LIVE: Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump | January 23

All i care about is him being impeached and removed from office. A climate change denier makes him the most dangerous man in the world at the moment.
 
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HTacianas

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A station that will cover both sides equally, so that you see all that is said, instead of only part, as some networks would give.

Instead, the whole, without censoring.

For that, I recommend a sure thing: PBS, which often will have more than 1 channel available, and here it's on the 2nd PBS channel.

Here's a link to the national PBS stream for those that want it by streaming:
WATCH LIVE: Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump | January 23

I'm watching it now. I was keenly interested in Nadler's saying that he would give an analysis of "the law". But so far he has not alleged any violation of the law. If there were a violation of the law he would quote what law was violated. He hasn't.
 
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DavidPT

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All i care about is him being impeached and removed from office. A climate change denier makes him the most dangerous man in the world at the moment.


All I care about is these first 3 days of the prosecution's case getting over with so that we can get back to someone not talking nonsense nonstop all day long for 3 full days.
 
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Halbhh

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All I care about is these first 3 days of the prosecution's case getting over with so that we can get back to someone not talking nonsense nonstop all day long for 3 full days.
So, you're not learning anything new?

That's your own choice. They've presented pertinent information, relevant and useful to the case.

For instance: Biden had a corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor removed, which other nations also agreed should be removed.

That's relevant, because it (with other presented details) disproves the political talking point floated by some that Biden wanted that Ukrainian prosecutor removed to help allow corruption -- removed a good prosecutor for bad reasons.
Instead, it was that the prosecutor was widely seen as corrupt that justified his removal.
 
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Hank77

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A station that will cover both sides equally, so that you see all that is said, instead of only part, as some networks would give.

Instead, the whole, without censoring.

For that, I recommend a sure thing: PBS, which often will have more than 1 channel available, and here it's on the 2nd PBS channel.

Here's a link to the national PBS stream for those that want it by streaming:
WATCH LIVE: Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump | January 23
I'm watching on C-SPAN at this link.

 
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Hank77

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I'm watching it now. I was keenly interested in Nadler's saying that he would give an analysis of "the law". But so far he has not alleged any violation of the law. If there were a violation of the law he would quote what law was violated. He hasn't.
Nadler proved that there doesn't need to be a statutory crime in order to impeach a President or anyone else that is subject to impeachment.
Dershowitz didn't think so either when Clinton was impeached.

 
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DavidPT

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So, you're not learning anything new?

That's your own choice. They've presented pertinent information, relevant and useful to the case.

For instance: Biden had a corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor removed, which other nations also agreed should be removed.

That's relevant, because it (with other presented details) disproves the political talking point floated by some that Biden wanted that Ukrainian prosecutor removed to help allow corruption -- removed a good prosecutor for bad reasons.
Instead, it was that the prosecutor was widely seen as corrupt that justified his removal.


Learning anything new? I already heard what the House Democrats had to say via their House investigations, though I did tune out a lot of their ramblings on occasion. I still heard enough to know what they were trying to allege. What could they possibly tell us now that most of us didn't already know?
 
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HTacianas

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Nadler proved that there doesn't need to be a statutory crime in order to impeach a President or anyone else that is subject to impeachment.
Dershowitz didn't think so either when Clinton was impeached.


"The notion that common law offenses could be enforced in federal courts was found to be unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court in United States v. Hudson and Goodwin, 11 U.S. 32 (1812). Some have argued that they are inconsistent with the prohibition of ex post facto laws."

Common law offence - Wikipedia

Nadler is arguing statutory offenses without mentioning statutes to confuse the issue.
 
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DavidPT

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Nadler proved that there doesn't need to be a statutory crime in order to impeach a President or anyone else that is subject to impeachment.
Dershowitz didn't think so either when Clinton was impeached.


He hasn't proved anything as of yet if Trump's defense is able to debunk that theory.
 
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Halbhh

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Learning anything new? I already heard what the House Democrats had to say via their House investigations, though I did tune out a lot of their ramblings on occasion. I still heard enough to know what they were trying to allege. What could they possibly tell us now that most of us didn't already know?
You already knew Biden had that Ukrainian prosecutor removed because he was widely seen as a corrupt prosecutor?
 
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DavidPT

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You already knew Biden had that Ukrainian prosecutor removed because he was widely seen as a corrupt prosecutor?

That hasn't been proven though. Senator Graham, unless he's lying, and I wouldn't put it past him if he was, indicated today that these things about the Bidens need to be looked into further, and that he was planning on doing that post this impeachment trial. The claim is that these things concerning the Bidens and Ukraine have already been debunked. Graham indicated that he has never seen any evidence that it has. Or least that's what I seem to recall him saying.
 
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Halbhh

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That hasn't been proven though. Senator Graham, unless he's lying, and I wouldn't put it past him if he was, indicated today that these things about the Bidens need to be looked into further, and that he was planning on doing that post this impeachment trial. The claim is that these things concerning the Bidens and Ukraine have already been debunked. Graham indicated that he has never seen any evidence that it has. Or least that's what I seem to recall him saying.
The real picture is complex and interesting! Here's a great article laying out all of the pieces that are known facts, and there are quite a few:
(I think if needed you can register email to get like 4 free articles a month)
What Joe Biden Actually Did in Ukraine
 
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Greengardener

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All i care about is him being impeached and removed from office. A climate change denier makes him the most dangerous man in the world at the moment.
Not to hijack the thread, but only to comment to you, Steve: You might be right, but in weighing out a very difficult choice last election, one consideration for people I've talked with was that supporting the rights of the vulnerable unborn made him the most noble of all the candidates we had to choose from. Climate change may have solid science behind it, but the proof of that remains in the future. How one treats unborn humans speaks volumes here and now. I had a hard time disagreeing with them. May we find an answer to both those problems and the plethora of other problems. As far as I can see, those many problems all seem to stem from some form of, well, sin.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I don't see this one going anywhere...while it may be comical to watch everyone on both sides get their undies in a bunch about it, the outcome is more than predictable as neither party has shown any sincere effort to take the institution/process seriously.

Basically, the house democrats are doing it due to a hatred of Trump, and are going on a fishing expedition to come up with something of substance to make a case for it...and on the senate side, you have a republican majority who have shown that, even if their were something of substance to be uncovered, they have no intention of taking it seriously or listening to anything they don't want to hear as made clear by the way they voted right down party lines with regards to establishing the rules for the process.

Look at the proposed amendments:
The first, which would allow the Senate to subpoena White House records, was defeated along party lines, 53-47. A second, to subpoena State Department documents related to the charges against the president, was also defeated along party lines, 53-47. Schumer immediately proposed a third amendment, to subpoena documents from the White House Office of Management and Budget, which also failed.

Schumer proposed a fourth amendment, to subpoena acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, a key figure in events like the unusual freeze on millions of dollars in military aid to Ukraine, which prompted House Democrats to launch an impeachment inquiry. Again, the amendment failed, 53-47.

Schumer agreed to postpone the rest of his amendments until Wednesday, but after a brief negotiation, he introduced a fifth amendment, to subpoena certain Defense Department documents and records. It, too, was defeated, 53-47.

Schumer introduced his sixth amendment, sending the first day of the impeachment trial late into the night. He moved to subpoena the testimony of Robert Blair, a senior adviser to Mulvaney, and Michael Duffey, the associate director of national security at the Office of Management and Budget, who oversees the process for approving and releasing U.S. assistance to foreign countries. And like the five before it, the amendment was tabled on a vote of 53-47.



So to recap, Democratic position: "Let's dig into everything we can to find something of substance we can use against him"

Republican position: "We don't even want the remote chance of something to be uncovered that may make Trump look bad or expose anything, so we're going to block any and all subpoenas for evidence and witnesses"

Democrats want to fish for evidence, Republicans don't want any remote chance of evidence being uncovered so that 2 months from now, they can say "The Dems had no evidence"

The whole thing is an embarrassment and a joke.
 
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Halbhh

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Basically, the house democrats are doing it due to a hatred of Trump, and are going on a fishing expedition to come up with something of substance to make a case for it...
I can at least see that view (and incidentally I'm an independent and tend to vote for both parties, by looking at individual candidates instead of party). I read an op-ed in the NYTimes today saying that the 'abuse of power' actions don't rise up to the level needed for impeachment.

Ok, perhaps that's so, it's not really obvious one way or the other.

But...The Constitution gives Congress the authority and power of oversight of the executive carrying out the programs Congress has funded.

That's just fact -- the Supreme Court has explicitly said in the past Congress has the authority and power to call witnesses, and require them, in its Constitutional authority and duty of oversight.

So, since Trump actually did do a blanket order to the government to not comply with subpoenas from Congress....

Right there, he disobeyed the Constitutional separation of powers, when against the Constitution.

That alone, is grave, and of overwhelming importance.

We do not want a dictator or strong man. We want a constitutional president.

By itself, that's reason enough to remove him. Unless Trump reversed and yielded, he should be removed.

Because the Constitution -- our Constitution -- is more important than any one president.

Even if you like some things he's done, as I do (some, not all!).
 
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Hank77

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That hasn't been proven though. Senator Graham, unless he's lying, and I wouldn't put it past him if he was, indicated today that these things about the Bidens need to be looked into further, and that he was planning on doing that post this impeachment trial. The claim is that these things concerning the Bidens and Ukraine have already been debunked. Graham indicated that he has never seen any evidence that it has. Or least that's what I seem to recall him saying.
Lindsey Graham is being very careful in the way he worded that statement. He's saying that there may be something else to know about what the Bidens were doing.

But as far as Joe Biden insisting that Shokin be fired Lindsey knows that was all above board, everybody knew about it and agreed with it, including Lindsey.
The DOD has to certify that the country receiving Congress appropriated aid is eligible to receive it. In Ukraine's case, they have to show that they are making progress in fighting corruption. Under Shokin they weren't so if they wanted the loan guarantees from the US they had to get working on the corruption cases. The IMF and the EU which also give aid to Ukraine were unhappy with Shokin and the lack of progress that was being made.
Lindsey knows all this, the Congress knows this, so don't let him confuse the issues.

In the spring of 2019, Trump temporarily held back a portion of the aid to the Northern Triangle countries. He did it openly with the knowledge of the DOD and Congress.

Why did he hide the hold on the Ukraine aid?
 
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Hank77

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I don't see this one going anywhere...while it may be comical to watch everyone on both sides get their undies in a bunch about it, the outcome is more than predictable as neither party has shown any sincere effort to take the institution/process seriously.

Basically, the house democrats are doing it due to a hatred of Trump, and are going on a fishing expedition to come up with something of substance to make a case for it...and on the senate side, you have a republican majority who have shown that, even if their were something of substance to be uncovered, they have no intention of taking it seriously or listening to anything they don't want to hear as made clear by the way they voted right down party lines with regards to establishing the rules for the process.

Look at the proposed amendments:
The first, which would allow the Senate to subpoena White House records, was defeated along party lines, 53-47. A second, to subpoena State Department documents related to the charges against the president, was also defeated along party lines, 53-47. Schumer immediately proposed a third amendment, to subpoena documents from the White House Office of Management and Budget, which also failed.

Schumer proposed a fourth amendment, to subpoena acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, a key figure in events like the unusual freeze on millions of dollars in military aid to Ukraine, which prompted House Democrats to launch an impeachment inquiry. Again, the amendment failed, 53-47.

Schumer agreed to postpone the rest of his amendments until Wednesday, but after a brief negotiation, he introduced a fifth amendment, to subpoena certain Defense Department documents and records. It, too, was defeated, 53-47.

Schumer introduced his sixth amendment, sending the first day of the impeachment trial late into the night. He moved to subpoena the testimony of Robert Blair, a senior adviser to Mulvaney, and Michael Duffey, the associate director of national security at the Office of Management and Budget, who oversees the process for approving and releasing U.S. assistance to foreign countries. And like the five before it, the amendment was tabled on a vote of 53-47.



So to recap, Democratic position: "Let's dig into everything we can to find something of substance we can use against him"

Republican position: "We don't even want the remote chance of something to be uncovered that may make Trump look bad or expose anything, so we're going to block any and all subpoenas for evidence and witnesses"

Democrats want to fish for evidence, Republicans don't want any remote chance of evidence being uncovered so that 2 months from now, they can say "The Dems had no evidence"

The whole thing is an embarrassment and a joke.
Yes, he'll be acquitted and probably reelected but it won't be because no one tried to stop him.
So if he does something that really hurts this country, my kids and grandkids, your families we'll know who is responsible.
 
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steve78

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Not to hijack the thread, but only to comment to you, Steve: You might be right, but in weighing out a very difficult choice last election, one consideration for people I've talked with was that supporting the rights of the vulnerable unborn made him the most noble of all the candidates we had to choose from. Climate change may have solid science behind it, but the proof of that remains in the future. How one treats unborn humans speaks volumes here and now. I had a hard time disagreeing with them. May we find an answer to both those problems and the plethora of other problems. As far as I can see, those many problems all seem to stem from some form of, well, sin.

There won't be a world for unborn humans to live on if things don't change. This is God's world, we should look after it.

People like trump are destroying the future of future generations and for what, one of the worst sins on gods earth, Greed.
 
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