SUFFERING

Carl Emerson

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The question is, did God create the heaven which satan dwelt earlier, with sin?
God does not create sin.
In view of Genesis 20:6, do you now understand that none necessarily sins in earth apart from God's eternal plan & purpose & so your apparent claim of "there is boasting on earth necessarily & so God doesn't give salvation based on human works" is false?
Please point me to which post # you refer to.
Hebrews 11:9,10 says Abraham believed God for the eternal reward in heaven. It was not given to him based on his works. In light of this, you agree your claim of "eternal rewards based on human works" is false?
I was making the distinction between Eternal salvation and Eternal rewards. The former is associated with God's election, the latter with personal obedience.
If God chose to create everything through & for His Son & thus glorified Himself only through His Son, why would He have healed naamam not based on His Son's works who was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelations 13:8)?
Whenever God is active so is Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Does Jesus who begin faith preserve it as well (Luke 22:32)?
Some have this grace for God's purpose - Peter, for example, did not have the grace to resist denying Jesus.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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God does not create sin.

But God does decide what sin is, and impute it to certain acts, attitudes, and behaviors. For example Lucifer wasn't in "rebellion" until God decided that she was.
 
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Si_monfaith

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God does not create sin.

Please point me to which post # you refer to.

I was making the distinction between Eternal salvation and Eternal rewards. The former is associated with God's election, the latter with personal obedience.

Whenever God is active so is Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Some have this grace for God's purpose - Peter, for example, did not have the grace to resist denying Jesus.

God does not create sin.

If so, why did satan commit the sin of boasting in heaven? If satan could commit sin in heaven why couldn't humans commit sin in heaven?

Did God stop abimelech from sinning in Genesis 20:6? Does it prove He could stop anyone from sinning? If yes, why do you claim He doesn't give salvation based on human works because there is sinning (boasting) in earth?

I was making the distinction between Eternal salvation and Eternal rewards. The former is associated with God's election, the latter with personal obedience.

Does Hebrew 11:9,10 say Abraham sought eternal rewards by his personal obedience? Didn't he instead exercise faith to receive eternal rewards?

Whenever God is active so is Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
You posted: Ultimately yes, but not all healing comes before death and resurrection.
Reply: Do you now agree that there was healing even before the physical event of Christ's death & resurrection but yet based only on His works?


Some have this grace for God's purpose - Peter,

So you don't believe you have the grace whereby your faith will be preserved just as Peter's was?
 
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Carl Emerson

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If so, why did satan commit the sin of boasting in heaven? If satan could commit sin in heaven why couldn't humans commit sin in heaven?

We are the first born of a new creation - in our resurrected body we will be perfect like Jesus and will not sin.

Did God stop abimelech from sinning in Genesis 20:6? Does it prove He could stop anyone from sinning? If yes, why do you claim He doesn't give salvation based on human works because there is sinning (boasting) in earth?

God blocked His intent for sin to be accomplished. The intent was there and in that sense there was sin there, but God stopped it from being followed through.

Does Hebrew 11:9,10 say Abraham sought eternal rewards by his personal obedience? Didn't he instead exercise faith to receive eternal rewards?

Faith comes from hearing, but then through obedience comes good works, or from unbelief sin.


You posted: Ultimately yes, but not all healing comes before death and resurrection.
Reply: Do you now agree that there was healing even before the physical event of Christ's death & resurrection but yet based only on His works?

No the cross is a timeless event, and its action and effect spans all of history.

So you don't believe you have the grace whereby your faith will be preserved just as Peter's was?

See responses inside your quote...

Faith for salvation yes... Faith for eternal reward no... as this depends on individual will and obedience.

Can you kindly now give me a break from questions.
 
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Blade

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Suffering.. what Christ suffered .. no man has. Want to talk about things in this world as a result of sin.. then we all do.. saved or not. And God does use it for His glory meaning.. turns it around for good every time. Never was from Him. All good things..not some good some bad..but ALL good things come from God.

So when things happen that God had not hand it.. I praise Him in the mist of it. It was not from Him.. many things test us. But way to many times some believers think GOD lets these happen to teach us. Yet the word makes it very clear why these things CAN happen. We did it.. what we do think say.. and then the enemy the god of this world has rights.. and will go after anything of God to hurt Him.
 
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hhodgson

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See responses inside your quote...

Faith for salvation yes... Faith for eternal reward no... as this depends on individual will and obedience.

Can you kindly now give me a break from questions.

Hi Carl… You mind if I also use your quote here for the rest of us? We can have a little fun, right?

Can you Si_ kindly now give us a break (also) from questions?


Word of Faith.gif
 
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Si_monfaith

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See responses inside your quote...

Faith for salvation yes... Faith for eternal reward no... as this depends on individual will and obedience.

Can you kindly now give me a break from questions.

See responses inside your quote...

Which makes quoting impossible.

Faith for salvation yes... Faith for eternal reward no... as this depends on individual will and obedience.

Does Heb 11:9,10 go contrary to your reply?

You posted: We are the first born of a new creation - in our resurrected body we will be perfect like Jesus and will not sin.
Reply:
1)Aren't we new creation already as per 2 Corinthians 5:17 to not be seen sinful?
2) Aren't we already perfect due to His sacrifice (Hebrews 10:14) to not be seen sinful?
3) Is there no freewill for humans to sin in heaven?
4) How did Adam and Eve suddenly know nakedness was sinful?


You posted: The intent was there and in that sense there was sin there, but God stopped it from being followed through.
Reply:
1)If God could stop anyone from sinning why doesn't He give salvation based on human works?
2)If humans could boast about their works in earth to earn eternal rewards for them in heaven, why does God give eternal rewards based on their works?


You posted: Faith comes from hearing, but then through obedience comes good works.
Reply: Where d
oes Hebrew 11:9,10 say Abraham sought eternal rewards by his personal obedience & good works?
You posted: No the cross is a timeless event, and its action and effect spans all of history.
Reply:
1)So now you agree naamam was healed only based on Christ's death & resurrection?
2)What do you mean by your statement, "
but not all healing comes before death and resurrection"?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Your responses are beginning to sound like infinite regress arguments. You seem to struggle with simple truths sadly.

You ask obvious questions like how come we can be partially healed now and fully healed at resurrection?

This would seem to be as obvious as the day is light.

Let's take a break - have a cool drink of water - and revisit in a week or so please.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Your responses are beginning to sound like infinite regress arguments. You seem to struggle with simple truths sadly.

You ask obvious questions like how come we can be partially healed now and fully healed at resurrection?

This would seem to be as obvious as the day is light.

Let's take a break - have a cool drink of water - and revisit in a week or so please.

You seem to struggle with simple truths sadly.

Are you struggling to find answers to my questions? Do you want more time to answer?

You ask obvious questions like how come we can be partially healed now and fully healed at resurrection?

What is partial healing & full healing?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Are you struggling to find answers to my questions? Do you want more time to answer?



What is partial healing & full healing?
I was prayed for by someone from the US at Ruth Heflin's meeting on the Mount of Olives in the mid eighties and my right hip was immediately healed. Since then I have had three hernia operations. Currently I have a damaged back and other issues common to an older age. In a few years time I will 'cross the Jordan' and be resurrected with a fully healed body. Hence partial and full healing.
 
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Si_monfaith

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I was prayed for by someone from the US at Ruth Heflin's meeting on the Mount of Olives in the mid eighties and my right hip was immediately healed. Since then I have had three hernia operations. Currently I have a damaged back and other issues common to an older age. In a few years time I will 'cross the Jordan' and be resurrected with a fully healed body. Hence partial and full healing.

and the discussion never ends..

Should the discussion end after truth is arrived at in the answers OR after answers which aren't coherent with Scripture?

I was prayed for by someone from the US at Ruth Heflin's meeting on the Mount of Olives in the mid eighties and my right hip was immediately healed.

So you visited the meeting for healing because you didn't have faith in Christ's death & resurrection to have already healed you 2000 years back?

In a few years time I will 'cross the Jordan' and be resurrected with a fully healed body.

"In order to have a fully healed body do you trust in "crossing the Jordan" OR Christ's death and resurrection?
 
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Carl Emerson

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So you visited the meeting for healing because you didn't have faith in Christ's death & resurrection to have already healed you 2000 years back?

No I was led to the meeting to be healed through what Jesus did for me 2000 years back...

Should the discussion end after truth is arrived at in the answers OR after answers which aren't coherent with Scripture?

In who's opinion?

You have a theological agenda that you choose not to disclose and call into judgement those who who don't comply by asking a string of inane questions that I have had the patience to put up with, whereas other posters have given up long ago.

I have walked the 'way' at quite some cost for over 45 years and seen Jesus bring healing and release to lives as He has moved. If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you talk to someone else, that will save you a lot of time being dissatisfied with my answers.

In the meantime please enjoy the Lord and see the fruit that endorses the theological position you hold (whatever that is)
 
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Si_monfaith

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No I was led to the meeting to be healed through what Jesus did for me 2000 years back...



In who's opinion?

You have a theological agenda that you choose not to disclose and call into judgement those who who don't comply by asking a string of inane questions that I have had the patience to put up with, whereas other posters have given up long ago.

I have walked the 'way' at quite some cost for over 45 years and seen Jesus bring healing and release to lives as He has moved. If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you talk to someone else, that will save you a lot of time being dissatisfied with my answers.

In the meantime please enjoy the Lord and see the fruit that endorses the theological position you hold (whatever that is)

No I was led to the meeting to be healed through what Jesus did for me 2000 years back...

1) Does one need to visit healing meetings even after having faith through the gospel which was earlier confirmed through healing miracles?
2) Did Jesus say "I prayed for you & that was why you were healed", to the woman who had the issue of blood for 12 years?
3) Do healing meetings cater only to those who haven't yet experienced healing miracles in order to confirm the gospel they heard (Mark 16:20)?

In who's opinion?

Without digressing, can you answer as to whether opinions ought to cohere with Scripture?
 
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Carl Emerson

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1) Does one need to visit healing meetings even after having faith through the gospel which was earlier confirmed through healing miracles?
2) Did Jesus say "I prayed for you & that was why you were healed", to the woman who had the issue of blood for 12 years?
3) Do healing meetings cater only to those who haven't yet experienced healing miracles in order to confirm the gospel they heard (Mark 16:20)?
(4.)Without digressing, can you answer as to whether opinions ought to cohere with Scripture?

1. I think we need to first define what faith is...
2. Did Jesus say confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed?
3. No. I had experienced many healings before going to the meeting.
4. Can you answer why on earth you felt the need to ask the question.

I think my time would be better spent responding to those who need help and are prepared to listen rather than those who like to play theological games.
 
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Si_monfaith

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1. I think we need to first define what faith is...
2. Did Jesus say confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed?
3. No. I had experienced many healings before going to the meeting.
4. Can you answer why on earth you felt the need to ask the question.

I think my time would be better spent responding to those who need help and are prepared to listen rather than those who like to play theological games.

Did Jesus say confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed?

1) Is the purpose of a healing miracle to confirm the gospel OR give complete healing?
2) Is the prayer of another person necessary in order to be healed? If yes, how was the woman in Mathew 9:22 healed without prayer?

No. I had experienced many healings before going to the meeting.

Earlier you said they were partial healings (miracles) not complete healings (abundance). So you agree prayers of others lead only to partial healings in order to confirm the gospel & not to be healed completely?

my time would be better spent responding to those who need help and

Is it better to respond to those in need after knowing truth better?
 
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Carl Emerson

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1) Is the purpose of a healing miracle to confirm the gospel OR give complete healing?
2) Is the prayer of another person necessary in order to be healed? If yes, how was the woman in Mathew 9:22 healed without prayer?



Earlier you said they were partial healings (miracles) not complete healings (abundance). So you agree prayers of others lead only to partial healings in order to confirm the gospel & not to be healed completely?



Is it better to respond to those in need after knowing truth better?

This thread has degenerated into complete nonsense.

You obviously did not understand what I meant by partial healing.

You are grossly mis-represening my position. and continue to ask inane questions.

What is your problem??

I can't believe your arrogance.

I don't need to know your 'truth' better.

I have tried to be patient with your weird questions but they keep coming to the point of abuse.

You relate to me as if I am a complete idiot when you have not walked in my shoes and seen lives touched as I have.

Please forgive me if I haven't represented my position as well as I might.

As the scripture warns us to avoid those who are contentious, I will bow out.

I will pray for you.
 
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hhodgson

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This thread has degenerated into complete nonsense.

Hey Carl... Your not alone, and I hope the "mods" don't shut us down because of this. We appreciate your friendship, along with Oscarr, and others that have came in and fellowshipped with us. We also appreciate anyone who is Word of Faith friendly. Our friend Si_ (Simon) has been asked to slow down with the hundreds of questions received so far, and still coming... especially, the ones loaded with reformed Calvinist thinking.

As he reads the (more recent) postings from us about this, I hope his post responses now will show more dialog, and just plain fellowshipping, and definitely... slow way down on the bombardment of questions.

Again, thanks Carl!


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