sudden destruction

[bibletruth469]

Will the rapture happen at the sudden destruction mentioned in 1 Thes 5:1-3,?"But of the times and seasons, brethren ye have no need I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the lord cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a women with child and they shall not escape ".

Compare the above verse to Matt 24:36-39, "But of that day and hour knowth no man but my father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be. For as the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day that Noah entered into the ark and knew not until the flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be".

Notice, the rapture is mentioned 1 Thes 4:16-18 and the same subject goes into chapter 5. Paul's subject is clearly still on the rapture in 1 Thes 5:1-3.' They shall not escape' is also mentioned in the above Matt 24 verses. I believe this is in reference to the unbelievers left on the earth after the rapture occurs.

Reading on in Thes 5:5-9, it says that we( believers) are children of the light and are watching. The day should not overtake us as a thief. In other words, the sudden destruction will come as a thief to an unbelieving world who are in darkness.

In cases of Noah and Lot, the destruction happened after the believer s were brought to safety. The same could be said of the church being brought to safety before the sudden destruction. Rev 3:10 states," Because thou hath kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell on the earth". Also look at Luke 21:36," watch ye therefore and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the son of man". Pray that you are a true believer and are not deceived and that the sudden destruction will not overtake you!

Welcoming your thoughts... Does the sudden destruction occur at the rapture?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Straightshot]

"Welcoming your thoughts... Does the sudden destruction occur at the rapture?"


I would comment if not on the same day, just before .... not much time between if any

The very first judgment of the tribulation will be this one [Revelation 8:6-12; 14:8; 18:1-21]

Here is the Lord's call to immortalize His true ecclesia living at the time [Revelation 18:4]

Here is another clue [Romans 11:25-27]

When the fullness of the Gentiles has been added .... then the Lord turns His attention to Israel [Jeremiah 30; Revelation 7:1-8]

And next is seen His true ecclesia transformed [Revelation 7:9-17] .... these are already in heaven before the tribulation begins [Revelation 8]

 

[Dave Watchman]

In other words, the sudden destruction will come as a thief to an unbelieving world who are in darkness.

Hi bibletruth,

I can agree with this. A short time prior to the "sudden destruction", something big should happen on a global scale that will alert all Christians. We will then be able to pickup where the chronology can be found in Revelation. I think there's 3 different earthquakes mentioned in 4 or 5 places.

I don't think this will be a very popular subject.

I think that the sudden destruction comes first, right at the start of the tribulation. I think there's going to be a strange earthquake and then a few days latter the world will calm down. Most will not understand that we've just experienced the first earthquake of Revelation but it will be more than enough for everyone around the world to stop whatever their doing. This will produce a side effect of temporary "peace and safety", like a calm before The Storm. Few will realize what comes after the quake from Revelation 8. They'll breathe a sigh of relief like every thing is fine but just when the coast seems clear again they'll say look now we have "peace and safety", then destruction will come suddenly.

The destruction that Paul's talking about is the beginning of sorrows/birth pangs. These are the first four trumpets and will become the catalyst for the mark of the beast and rise of Babylon. This destruction could not be "sudden" if it came at the middle or the end of the tribulation. This destruction will not be total as only one third is destroyed at a time. "Sudden" seems to be a word used to describe how God's actions or wrath broke out "suddenly" in the OT.

"Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know"

"I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass"

"Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment"

"Their widows are increased to me above the sand of the seas: I have brought upon them against the mother of the young men a spoiler at noonday: I have caused him to fall upon it suddenly, and terrors upon the city"​

When Jesus was talking about "the coming of the son of man", I'm sure that He wasn't talking about the "arrival" of the Son of Man like how we use the phrase "the second coming". He was talking about the first day of the tribulation when people are saying "peace and safety" just like in the days of Noah, just like in the days of Lott. The coming of the son of Man is a process. It's a procession of Apocalyptic events that culminate in the greatest Event in the history of mankind. When the tribulation begins everyone on Earth, even the wicked, will know Jesus is coming in a certain number of days. Remember 9.11, how many times did you hear "Oh God help us" or "Oh Dear Lord".

The rapture happens right at the end when the winter fruit is shaken by a gale, I'm sorry. I was talking to a person who thinks that the 6th seal is the beginning of the tribulation. I think that it's the end of a bit more than just the tribulation. Another person on the forum thinks that "Stars" are Angels, I think that she's right. But I think the rapture is in the 6th seal at the tribulation's completion.

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs (winter fruit),
when she is shaken of a mighty wind"- Rev. 6:13​

Stars of Heaven = Angels, one for each person saved, both the dead first and then we who remain alive and are left.
"And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds"

Fig Tree = The Commonwealth of Israel or the Israel of God, believers in our Glorious Lord Jesus.
"Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season"

Untimely figs = Everyone who ever died in Christ, plus a numberless multitude of the living.
"One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe"

Its Winter Fruit = Everyone who ever died in Christ, plus a numberless multitude of the living.
"the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"

She = His Bride has made herself ready.
"Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb"

Shaken of a Mighty Wind = The Second coming.
"And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind"

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The stars seen in Revelation 6:13 are Satan and his fallen angels .... and certainly not the Lord's angles

These rebellious angels are defined further in Revelation's unfolding

The Lord's call for His true ecclesia will have already taken place just before the tribulation begins

And it will be the Lord Himself who will resurrect and translate them to immortality .... angels cannot do this

Here is the sequence: the Lord will come unexpectedly, like a thief does ,,,, no warning

He will first call and immortalize His true ecclesia .... in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye

And then He will immediately proceed to bring His unprecedented judgment upon an unbelieving world .... they will not be expecting this

And they will not see Him in the process until He appears visibly upon the earth at the end of the tribulation 2550 days later .... the count: 2520 days of the 70th week decreed for Israel and 30 days for the battle of Armageddon .... then He will appear visibly just after and gather all of the mortal survivors of the tribulation and separate them

This gathering after the days of the tribulation is not a resurrection of anyone

Those mortal found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth .... those found in unbelief will be rejected

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Matthew Twentyfour]

It's just as Paul declared, the 1st Day of the Lord will occur when the Israelites declares "peace and safety" throughout Israel after the Antichrist confirms a peace agreement with them. Then sudden destruction strikes when the Antichrist breaks the agreement 3.5 years later. The woman in labor is Israel.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1 There is no need to write you, friends, about the times and occasions when these things will happen. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief comes at night. 3 When people say, “Everything is quiet and safe,” then suddenly destruction will hit them! It will come as suddenly as the pains that come upon a woman in labor, and people will not escape.

On the 1st Day of the Lord, the rapture happens, we go up, the two witnesses comes down and begin their testimony.

The 2nd Day of the Lord is at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns to earth. The two witnesses don't come in the 2nd Day of the Lord because you know they do not testify after the tribulation.

Malachi 4:4-5
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

No matter how many times I read Revelation, I cannot settle logically on pre, mid, or post tribulation. It's almost as if the book concludes all three.
I want to believe in post-tribulation. It just seems right; pre-tribulation quite frankly is just too convenient. By what right does one abandon their children or friends left behind? God would use you as a tool to bring them to the light before the world fades away, that is why I have a problem with a pre-tribulation rapture.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

It's pre-trib. It tells you right here.

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 NKJV
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Yeah, read a bit more past that. Then you'll see post-trib. And after that, mid-trib.
Revelation is the most cryptic work in the history of literature, and you know it. It leaves you to your own bias.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

Yeah, read a bit more past that. Then you'll see post-trib. And after that, mid-trib.
Revelation is the most cryptic work in the history of literature, and you know it. It leaves you to your own bias.

Show me.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I don't have to. You could conclude the Pale Horse as being Saint Constantine. You could see the harlot of Babylon as feminism.. you could see the end times as old news. At the same time, the churches are last mentioned very early in the book, supposing that the elect have ascended.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

I don't have to. You could conclude the Pale Horse as being Saint Constantine. You could see the harlot of Babylon as feminism.. you could see the end times as old news. At the same time, the churches are last mentioned very early in the book, supposing that the elect have ascended.

Ok, if you can't show me. I'll show you.

Here's all of Isaiah 27. There's no mentioning of a post tribulation rapture or mid tribulation rapture. Just the restoration of Israel after Christ defeats the Antichrist and begins the millennium.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 27&version=NKJV

Isaiah 27 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

The Restoration of Israel
2 In that day sing to her,
“A vineyard of red wine!
3 I, the Lord, keep it,
I water it every moment;
Lest any hurt it,
I keep it night and day.
4 Fury is not in Me.
Who would set briers and thorns
Against Me in battle?
I would go through them,
I would burn them together.
5 Or let him take hold of My strength,
That he may make peace with Me;
And he shall make peace with Me.”

6 Those who come He shall cause to take root in Jacob;
Israel shall blossom and bud,
And fill the face of the world with fruit.

7 Has He struck Israel as He struck those who struck him?
Or has He been slain according to the slaughter of those who were slain by Him?
8 In measure, by sending it away,
You contended with it.
He removes it by His rough wind
In the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered;
And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin:
When he makes all the stones of the altar
Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust,
Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand.
10 Yet the fortified city will be desolate,
The habitation forsaken and left like a wilderness;
There the calf will feed, and there it will lie down
And consume its branches.
11 When its boughs are withered, they will be broken off;
The women come and set them on fire.
For it is a people of no understanding;
Therefore He who made them will not have mercy on them,
And He who formed them will show them no favor.

12 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will thresh,
From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt;
And you will be gathered one by one,
O you children of Israel.

13 So it shall be in that day:
The great trumpet will be blown;
They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria,
And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt,
And shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


Please feel free to post any scripture you feel points to a post tribulation rapture.

 

[Straightshot]

"I want to believe in post-tribulation. It just seems right; pre-tribulation quite frankly is just too convenient. By what right does one abandon their children or friends left behind? God would use you as a tool to bring them to the light before the world fades away, that is why I have a problem with a pre-tribulation rapture."


You should, but this what the Lord has said .... human logic is always trumpet by His intention [Luke 14:26]

 

[Straightshot]

"Please feel free to post any scripture you feel points to a post tribulation rapture."

Yes ..... there are none

 

[vinsight4u]

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[yeshuasavedme]

No matter how many times I read Revelation, I cannot settle logically on pre, mid, or post tribulation. It's almost as if the book concludes all three.
I want to believe in post-tribulation. It just seems right; pre-tribulation quite frankly is just too convenient. By what right does one abandon their children or friends left behind? God would use you as a tool to bring them to the light before the world fades away, that is why I have a problem with a pre-tribulation rapture.

If you do not warn them to escape the wrath to come, now, then you are told by the LORD to; "Remember Lot's Wife".

Lot's wife did not look back because of the "life of luxury" which some have erroneously preached, but because she left daughters behind, whose husbands would not believe Lot's warning.

You can read the history of that in the history called "Book of the Upright":
http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/B01C019.htm
19:52, 53
And he overthrew these cities, all the plain and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground; and Ado the wife of Lot looked back to see the destruction of the cities, for her compassion was moved on account of her daughters who remained in Sodom, for they did not go with her
And when she looked back she became a pillar of salt, and it is yet in that place unto this day. .

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yeah, read a bit more past that. Then you'll see post-trib. And after that, mid-trib.
Revelation is the most cryptic work in the history of literature, and you know it. It leaves you to your own bias.

No, but you have to read the Word of God in context, and you must not believe any doctrine that is not in the "Teaching/Torah" about the Person and work of the Messiah who was to come, and is come, in flesh, and is returning in flesh, but who is coming in the air -heaven- to receive us unto Himself [Psalm 75:2,3, in Hebrew to English], before He pours out His wrath on the the earth below and and resets the pillars of it above, [with the raptured saints, in the heavens, ruling as priests in the heavenly priesthood as adpted sons of the Firstborn]
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...day-and-israels-time-for-restoration.7879917/

 

[bibletruth469]

I believe that the sudden destruction spoken of in 1 Thes 5:1-11 is not just about the nation of Israel, but will effect the entire world and will come without warning just like the text says. The Matt 24 verses 36-44 seem to fit the rapture and the sudden destruction mentioned in 1 Thes. However, Matt 24:15-22 clearly speaks of Israel and their fleeing to the mountains once the abomination of desolation occurs. This event happens at the mid point of the tribulation. A study of Daniel s 70 weeks and Revelation s 7 years divided up into the 3 1\2 years prove this fact.

I believe that the rapture and the sudden destruction happens before the tribulation. Please let me explain . I used to believe that all the seals have not been opened yet by our Lord,However this may not be the case. Let's compare the 1 St 4 seals with the birth pains of Matt 24 :5-9. If we look closely to both texts, vs 5 - false Christ's, 1 St seal, I believe stands for false Christ's and deception. Vs 6 war, 2nd seal, war.ect...In Matt 24, it mentions famines, pestilence and earthquake s in this order. It really seems to coincide with the seals of Revelation.

Notice, earthquake s are mentioned in Matt and at the sixth seal. I believe this is when the sudden destruction and the rapture will take place.notice in the text in Revelation soon after, it mentions a great numberless multitude found in heaven that seems to have come out of nowhere.Revelation 7:9-12.

Another indication that the sixth seal shows a pre trib' rapture is by this text. Look at Revelation 6:17," For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand". In other words, the tribulation will begin at this point.

I believe that the first 5 seals of Revelation have been opened by Jesus since he has accended after his resurrection .the birth pains of Matt 24 and the first 5 seals seem to have occurred since the 1st century and continue to this day. For example, the fifth seal speaks about the people who have died for their faith. They are anxiously awaiting the judgement of those people who killed them. They are told to wait a little longer. Could this possibly be the ' dead in Christ' awaiting glorified bodies since the first century till now?

The question remains: Does the sudden destruction happen at the pre trib' rapture , at the 6 th seal at the great earthquake? It may be a possibility.