Submission

[BahBahBritty86]

no offense but i hate this stupid submissive stuff. i don't think anyone should have to submit to anyone. yes i know its in the bible but i still don't agree with it. i would hate for my girlfriend to "submit" to me. i respect someone who can stand up for themselves.

Completely agree...reps for you!!!

 

[marciebaby]

What a lot of people forget is that Eph 5: 21 calls us ALL to submit to ONE ANOTHER. Most bible translations then have a handing subject heading separating v. 21 from 22. It actually reads like this: Submit yourselves to one another because of your reverence for Christ. Wives, to your husbands as to the Lord (translators added the word "submit" after "Wives." It's absent in the original Greek).

 

[KristianJ]

What a lot of people forget is that Eph 5: 21 calls us ALL to submit to ONE ANOTHER. Most bible translations then have a handing subject heading separating v. 21 from 22. It actually reads like this: Submit yourselves to one another because of your reverence for Christ. Wives, to your husbands as to the Lord (translators added the word "submit" after "Wives." It's absent in the original Greek).

Great post I was looking through my Bible software looking for what the Greek really says, and if that's true, then I think there's no reason not to take it firmly on board. That's one reason why the headings can be a bit erroneous and not quite capture the full implication of as piece of Scripture.

 

[MN John]

Eph 5: 21 Submit yourselves to one another because of your reverence for Christ. Wives, to your husbands as to the Lord
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

OK, this topic seems hot. I honor and respect my wife-to-be by listening to her opinions and resons and giving her full credit for being a wise woman of God and for knowing more about some things than I do. We make decisions together. I submit to her in that I put her needs ahead of my needs and her wants ahead of my wants (as Christ loved the church). She submits to me in that, on the rare occasion that we disagree and there isn't a clear answer to which option is better, the buck stops here and I will make the decision. That doesn't mean that I will always get my own way, sometimes I will go with my idea, sometimes hers.


Submit means to VOLUNTARILY place your will below someone else's. It is voluntarily because we do have a choice and nobody is naturally below anyone else. It is like yeilding the right-of-way when driving. You can't give something up unless you have it to start with. So only because we could put ourselves above our spouses do we have the opportunity to submit to them.

When you love and respect and trust your spouse, and both of you honor each other and submit to one another, you don't have concern about them manipulating you or misusng the authority that you give them. Sara is a wise and capable woman and has run a household alone for years. Just because she submits to me does not mean that I will lay down the law, on the contrary, it makes it easier to give up control when you don't have to work to get it.

This is complex, it's early in the morning. So I may not have said it all as well as I could have. But the main point I'm making is that if you love someone, submssion is not a difficult or negative thing.

 

[Marie D]

I think some people here are trying to turn a blind eye to bits of the Bible that don't necessary fit with modern political ideas, such as feminism. The Good Book teaches us that Man is Head of Woman as God is Head of Man, that we should obey and be meek, that we're our husbands' helpmeets... it goes on.

If you love your man, you should surely respect his views and want to follow his leadership.

Leanna asked what good there is in her submitting to her husband if they disagree about what colour to paint a spare room. I agree that the best way to decide what to do is by discussing it, but if husband and wife can't agree then either there is stalemate or one person backs down. If that person is the husband then his authority and stature are diminished, because God intended him to be the leader not the follower. If it keeps happening his wife may not respect or love him any more, because he becomes less of a man. Whereas if the wife backs down, she feels virtuous and her husband loves her more than ever for gladly accepting her God-given submissive role.

 

[f U z ! o N]

Leanna asked what good there is in her submitting to her husband if they disagree about what colour to paint a spare room. I agree that the best way to decide what to do is by discussing it, but if husband and wife can't agree then either there is stalemate or one person backs down. If that person is the husband then his authority and stature are diminished, because God intended him to be the leader not the follower. If it keeps happening his wife may not respect or love him any more, because he becomes less of a man. Whereas if the wife backs down, she feels virtuous and her husband loves her more than ever for gladly accepting her God-given submissive role.

becomes less of a man eh? sure whatever. if a wife loses love or respect because the man is not the leader than that is not love whatsoever. and the man loving the wife more because she backs down? so you don't think any woman should have any power at all not even in politics? God is leader over all. a man DOES NOT control a woman.

 

[KristianJ]

Nobody's saying that a man has the mandate to control a woman, f U z ! o N (well, not that I can see) There's a difference between a man accepting and acting out the responsibility that comes with being the male in a marriage relationship and being unhealthily dominating over his wife (which near enough amounts to suppression). Let's go back to what the Greek translation really tells us, in that voluntary submission is essentially a reciprocal thing. It does not give the license to either party to assert any sort of authority over the other, because that's not what a loving relationship is all about. If it has the key elements of trust, respect, etc. healthy and nurtured, then there should be no problem in the man and the woman being content to assume their Biblical roles.

 

[Leanna]

If that person is the husband then his authority and stature are diminished, because God intended him to be the leader not the follower. If it keeps happening his wife may not respect or love him any more, because he becomes less of a man. Whereas if the wife backs down, she feels virtuous and her husband loves her more than ever for gladly accepting her God-given submissive role.

I completely disagree with this. You have been pushed to think this way by your community, and so naturally you feel virtuous if you back down and you feel a loss of respect if the man backs down. I do not feel this way. I have higher respect for my husband because of the way we deal with our relationship, he does not feel the need to make all of the decisions.... I would lose a lot of respect for him if he took the "I am man, hear me roar" stance... so its all a matter of perspective. My perspective says that it is only less of a man who is unwilling to "back down" and thus I have little respect for men who control their women.

Its so much nicer to work as a team

 

[Leanna]

Nobody's saying that a man has the mandate to control a woman, f U z ! o N (well, not that I can see) There's a difference between a man accepting and acting out the responsibility that comes with being the male in a marriage relationship and being unhealthily dominating over his wife (which near enough amounts to suppression). Let's go back to what the Greek translation really tells us, in that voluntary submission is essentially a reciprocal thing. It does not give the license to either party to assert any sort of authority over the other, because that's not what a loving relationship is all about. If it has the key elements of trust, respect, etc. healthy and nurtured, then there should be no problem in the man and the woman being content to assume their Biblical roles.

This is very nicely written, the tricky part is in agreeing upon what women's Godly roles are. Some people believe that women have no part in the work place, etc. I like to think of myself as aiming to be a Proverbs 31 woman.... she worked hard, managed the home, and made her husband proud.

 

[KristianJ]

This is very nicely written, the tricky part is in agreeing upon what women's Godly roles are. Some people believe that women have no part in the work place, etc. I like to think of myself as aiming to be a Proverbs 31 woman.... she worked hard, managed the home, and made her husband proud.

Fair point... and I think aiming to be a Prov 31 woman is a great goal. Personally I believe women have every right to be involved in the workplace for whatever reason they have, because they are just as capable of being in positions that we're more accustomed to seeing men be in.

By the way, with regards to the Eph 5 passage, the NLT has a rather good way of putting it, with the "heading" in a much better place contextually before verse 21. However the way that the passage was written seems to be different from what I can find on Bible Gateway It was sort of a "For wives, this means" and "For husbands, this means" application of verse 21, which I thought expresses the meaning of the passage in a helpful manner

 

[KinderBee]

My main problem with submission is that some people think the only way to submit is to let your husband make the decisions when a agreement can't be made. My fiance and I will submit to each other when we get married and BOTH of us will make choices to back down at times and let the other person have their way. I personally could not be in a relationship where the man made the final decisions and all i could do was tell him how i felt but I understand how this type of relationship can work for some people. If a man has to rely on him making the decisions all the time to feel like like a man and respected then he has self esteem issues . It's terrible that so often as christians we are thaught that women should not be strong leaders.

 

[MN John]

My main problem with submission is that some people think the only way to submit is to let your husband make the decisions when a agreement can't be made. My fiance and I will submit to each other when we get married and BOTH of us will make choices to back down at times and let the other person have their way. I personally could not be in a relationship where the man made the final decisions and all I could do was tell him how I felt but I understand how this type of relationship can work for some people. If a man has to rely on him making the decisions all the time to feel like like a man and respected then he has self esteem issues . It's terrible that so often as Christians we are taught that women should not be strong leaders.

Although we will submit to one another, my wife-to-be plans to defer to me in those very rare occasions when we are advocating different solutions and cannot reach a conclusion that one option is better than the other. This means that I will have an opportunity and responsibility to make that final call. But that does not mean that I will always choose the option that I had been advocating. I know that there are areas where Sara is better trained, areas where she's smarter, and areas where she has better intuitive discernment than me. So when it come down to the line and we don't reach concensus, the call will be ine but I will allow our individual areas of expertise to wiegh heavily in that final call.

I think that your arrangement and ours will look very close to identical fromt eh outside. The main difference is the internal commitment to submission. I wil hold a position of higher authority by virtue of sara's voluntary submission and by virtue of her free choice to honor that authority.

This is a hard subject because it is difficult to describe how two people can be in a relationship where one has higher authority than the other but they are still treated as equals, not as master and servant. It's like electing a president in a club that has two members.

I'm probably not saying this very well, so I think I'll stop here.
God bless you.
John

 

[LynnMcG]

im not married but i have a problem with it because it makes the woman seem inferior and that she can't stand up for herself because the husband is the leader.

Actually, that's not true nor is it biblical. Submission requires both partners to submit. The bible tells us that a husband should love his wife, as Christ loved the church. God does not think I am inferior because I am a woman. But you do have to have one person ultimately in charge. That's why God places the husband as the head of the household. God gives my husband wisdom in situations that he does not give me. So when a couple comes to an impass, the husband's decision is final. Now, that sounds awful on paper. But in reality, it should always be done in love. And in a marriage operating on biblical principles, it probably doesn't happen often - if ever.

Now occassionally, you'll hear stories of Christians husbands who abuse the notion of being the head of the house. Don't be that husband. Love your wife, cherish her and in turn she will love and cherish you. And once in a while, read Song of Solomon. Good stuff.

 

[Inperfected]

Although we will submit to one another, my wife-to-be plans to defer to me in those very rare occasions when we are advocating different solutions and cannot reach a conclusion that one option is better than the other. This means that I will have an opportunity and responsibility to make that final call. But that does not mean that I will always choose the option that I had been advocating. I know that there are areas where Sara is better trained, areas where she's smarter, and areas where she has better intuitive discernment than me. So when it come down to the line and we don't reach concensus, the call will be ine but I will allow our individual areas of expertise to wiegh heavily in that final call.

I think that your arrangement and ours will look very close to identical fromt eh outside. The main difference is the internal commitment to submission. I wil hold a position of higher authority by virtue of sara's voluntary submission and by virtue of her free choice to honor that authority.

This is a hard subject because it is difficult to describe how two people can be in a relationship where one has higher authority than the other but they are still treated as equals, not as master and servant. It's like electing a president in a club that has two members.

I'm probably not saying this very well, so I think I'll stop here.
God bless you.
John

Yup, theres goes my exact opinion on the matter... Thanks John!

 

[FireOfGod]

well i still prefer the idea of submitting to each other not her submitting to me.
what if the husband is well pretty much an idiot or doesn't think maturely on some issues. does the wife just sit there and listen? no she better stand up for herself. men can and will be wrong at some points. i want my future wife to slap me in the face and bring me back to reality if need be not just sit there and "submit to me". yes we can love each other like Christ loves us but i prefer a 2 leader scenario and not a one leader scenario. plus, back then women were not allowed to have any power. today they are. is it wrong for a woman to be in power?

Not quite... The woman can and will slap her husband upside the head when something isn't right. Men will at times make stupid decisions, and be just plain dumb. It's not like there's is no discussion between the two when making decisions. They discuss, share ideas and opinions, if need be biblically back the decision up, and it'll be done with.

But a man is the man nonetheless... A man takes care of his household, and if he doesn't, he is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[Marie D]

Actually, that's not true nor is it biblical. Submission requires both partners to submit. The bible tells us that a husband should love his wife, as Christ loved the church. God does not think I am inferior because I am a woman. But you do have to have one person ultimately in charge. That's why God places the husband as the head of the household. God gives my husband wisdom in situations that he does not give me. So when a couple comes to an impass, the husband's decision is final. Now, that sounds awful on paper. But in reality, it should always be done in love. And in a marriage operating on biblical principles, it probably doesn't happen often - if ever.

Now occassionally, you'll hear stories of Christians husbands who abuse the notion of being the head of the house. Don't be that husband. Love your wife, cherish her and in turn she will love and cherish you. And once in a while, read Song of Solomon. Good stuff.

I like what you've written - I agree with you very much

 

[bliz]

It never s=ceases to amaze me how people ignore Ephesians 5:21 and pay so much attantion to 5:22. Both verses are Scripture!

 

[Leanna]

Not quite... The woman can and will slap her husband upside the head when something isn't right. Men will at times make stupid decisions, and be just plain dumb. It's not like there's is no discussion between the two when making decisions. They discuss, share ideas and opinions, if need be biblically back the decision up, and it'll be done with.

But a man is the man nonetheless... A man takes care of his household, and if he doesn't, he is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[FireOfGod]

???

 

[dusky_tresses]

"well i still prefer the idea of submitting to each other not her submitting to me.
what if the husband is well pretty much an idiot or doesn't think maturely on some issues. does the wife just sit there and listen? no she better stand up for herself. men can and will be wrong at some points. i want my future wife to slap me in the face and bring me back to reality if need be not just sit there and "submit to me"."

"Maybe this example is not preferred. I usually get this one.... "what if the man wants to move across the country, and the woman does not? What if you can't agree?" Well I feel that if it is a regular occurance that you can't come to a conclusion together that counseling would be a good approach. I think two adults should be mature enough to decide on things together and realize that not always do they get their way. I don't always get my way. We used to live in another state. There came a time when we were considering moving. I didn't want to, I had a good job that paid well and I loved the city. My husband wanted to move, he wanted to buy a house and be closer to our families.


We went with what he wanted to do after discussion. We agreed 100%. Although I cried as I moved, I didn't want to, I knew that it was the best thing and would accomplish our goals the best. People just need to line up the goals and decide what is best for the family and not the individual. It wasn't about me, it was about my husband AND me and what would be best for the future."


That last paragraph was great! that is totally what marriage is and should work out to be!