Study: Americans with Christian nationalist views more likely to flout COVID-19 precautions:

[grasping the after wind]

But murder and theft are not just Christians sins; they are acknowledged as wrong by people of all religions and none. On the other hand, that causing a zygote to fail to implant is capital murder meriting life imprisonment or death is not something widely acknowledged outside of Christianity.

What you suggest the opposition to abortion is advocating is a mischaracterization.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Who knows? But we're talking about here and now.

So was I. Pointing out that opposition to gay marriage is not a Christian thing at all but a universal position. China, an atheist country , does not allow gay marriage but it has required abortions. Look at the map and you will see that gay marriage is illegal in very many places where Christians have about zero influence but legal in places where Christians are supposedly repressing everyone else.

Countries Where Gay Marriage Is Legal 2020

 

[Caliban]

Christianity is a religion, not a nation. Thus, the idea of "Christian nationalism" doesn't make sense. Christ transcends all races, nationalities, and indeed all times.

Okay, talk to the Christians who define their politics in those terms then.

 

[Caliban]

It most certainly is. One does not use reason to decide by weighing the factual information whether to hate someone. One simply hates them because they are emotionally triggered by a person or group.

That is ridiculous. Strong emotions are a rational response to stimuli. If they were irrational, you couldn't predict or anticipate the reaction of others. This should be obvious to anyone.

 

[Caliban]

So was I. Pointing out that opposition to gay marriage is not a Christian thing at all but a universal position. China, an atheist country , does not allow gay marriage but it has required abortions. Look at the map and you will see that gay marriage is illegal in very many places where Christians have about zero influence but legal in places where Christians are supposedly repressing everyone else.

Countries Where Gay Marriage Is Legal 2020

That's a great way to make an argument; by that logic women should never vote and slavery should still be legal--everyone else did it. This is why we can't have nice things. At this this type of thinking is on the decline.

 

[Speedwell]

So was I. Pointing out that opposition to gay marriage is not a Christian thing at all but a universal position. China, an atheist country , does not allow gay marriage but it has required abortions. Look at the map and you will see that gay marriage is illegal in very many places where Christians have about zero influence but legal in places where Christians are supposedly repressing everyone else.

Countries Where Gay Marriage Is Legal 2020

And then we have this country, where opposition to gay marriage is largely a Christian thing and Christians are not repressing anyone else. That's what we are talking about now. What other countries and cultures have done is largely irrelevant.

 

[grasping the after wind]

That's a great way to make an argument; by that logic women should never vote and slavery should still be legal--everyone else did it. This is why we can't have nice things. At this this type of thinking is on the decline.

Making a reasonable rebuttal of a less than reasonable assertion does seem to be on the decline and jumping to unwarranted and unreasonable conclusions seem to be taking its place. The "logic used" I suppose was pointing out that since many non Christian cultures in the world both today and in the past were and are opposed to gay marriage being a legally acceptable institution, that is sure evidence that opposition to gay marriage being legal is not unique to Christianity. The less than reasonable assertion that it is a uniquely Christian thing was what I was attempting to rebut. How was presenting evidence that opposition to gay marriage is not unique to Christianity have anything to do women's suffrage and slavery?

 

[Speedwell]

Making a reasonable rebuttal of a less than reasonable assertion does seem to be on the decline and jumping to unwarranted and unreasonable conclusions seem to be taking its place. The "logic used" I suppose was pointing out that since many non Christian cultures in the world both today and in the past were and are opposed to gay marriage being a legally acceptable institution, that is sure evidence that opposition to gay marriage being legal is not unique to Christianity.

No one said so. But here and now in this country it is largely a Christian thing.

 

[Caliban]

Making a reasonable rebuttal of a less than reasonable assertion does seem to be on the decline and jumping to unwarranted and unreasonable conclusions seem to be taking its place. The "logic used" I suppose was pointing out that since many non Christian cultures in the world both today and in the past were and are opposed to gay marriage being a legally acceptable institution, that is sure evidence that opposition to gay marriage being legal is not unique to Christianity. The less than reasonable assertion that it is a uniquely Christian thing was what I was attempting to rebut. How was presenting evidence that opposition to gay marriage is not unique to Christianity have anything to do women's suffrage and slavery?

Because the strategy of pointing out the popularity of a thing is often used by groups to justify bigotry and bias. In the case of homophobia, it is true that Christians are not the only group to relish in hateful bigotry, and that fact is trotted out to exculpate the Christian from being unique in their prejudice. By pointing out their bias as a universal hatred of gays, fundamentalist types are able to recline in their homophobia as if it were a moral thing. Whatever your personal view, and whether or not you are dog whistling, the comment will be suspiciously read by those who know where such thinking ultimately leads.

 

[grasping the after wind]

And then we have this country, where opposition to gay marriage is largely a Christian thing and Christians are not repressing anyone else. That's what we are talking about now. What other countries and cultures have done is largely irrelevant.

And then we have this country where 65% of the populace identify as Christians and where gay marriage and abortion are both legal.
d we

 

[Caliban]

And then we have this country where 65% of the populace identify as Christians and where gay marriage and abortion are both legal.
d we

That's right, we are improving all the time. More freedom for everyone.

 

[grasping the after wind]

No one said so. But here and now in this country it is largely a Christian thing.

You do realize that it is legal in this county to marry a same sex partner do you not? So what is it that seems to bug you so about some Christians thinking that is a bad thing? Do you have some problem with people having an opposing views? Do you wish for them to lie to you and tell you they agree that same sex marriage is a plus for society when they do not believe that?
Why fixate upon opposition to something when the opposition cannot change the circumstances of legality of that something.

 

[Caliban]

You do realize that it is legal in this county to marry a same sex partner do you not? So what is it that seems to bug you so about some Christians thinking that is a bad thing? Do you have some problem with people having an opposing views? Do you wish for them to lie to you and tell you they agree that same sex marriage is a plus for society when they do not believe that?
Why fixate upon opposition to something when the opposition cannot change the circumstances of legality of that something.

Because I know that just because the Supreme Court upheld the Bergfeld case, there is every reason to think the Majority of Christians will overturn it if given the chance. Are Christians satisfied with the Roe decision. No, many actively try to overturn the Roe V Wade decision. What "bugs" me is that history shows us the fight isn't over. As long as people hold fast to a hateful ideology, I will be bugged by it and call it out.

 

[Speedwell]

You do realize that it is legal in this county to marry a same sex partner do you not? So what is it that seems to bug you so about some Christians thinking that is a bad thing? Do you have some problem with people having an opposing views? Do you wish for them to lie to you and tell you they agree that same sex marriage is a plus for society when they do not believe that?
Why fixate upon opposition to something when the opposition cannot change the circumstances of legality of that something.

You have missed the point entirely.

There are Christians in this country who oppose gay marriage and would like to see it outlawed. Whether they are right or wrong to do so is not at issue here. Do you deny that such Christians exist?
It is my observation that in this country at the present time opposition to gay marriage comes largely from these Christians. Do you have any evidence that this is not true?

My point--and my only point in this discussion--is that the desire by these particular Christians to outlaw gay marriage for all citizens constitutes a form of Christian nationalism.

It is possible to go further and say that some of these Christians justify their position on our putative Christian nationhood--and evidence can be provided for this--but it is beyond the scope of our present discussion.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Because the strategy of pointing out the popularity of a thing is often used by groups to justify bigotry and bias. In the case of homophobia, it is true that Christians are not the only group to relish in hateful bigotry, and that fact is trotted out to exculpate the Christian from being unique in their prejudice. By pointing out their bias as a universal hatred of gays, fundamentalist types are able to recline in their homophobia as if it were a moral thing. Whatever your personal view, and whether or not you are dog whistling, the comment will be suspiciously read by those who know where such thinking ultimately leads.

I don't think it is useful to try so desperately to make one whose opinion is in opposition to one's own seem to be a demon by inferring something that was not implied. An attempt at demonization often occurs when one has no argument that one is confident will be persuasive. Accusing Christians of engaging in hateful bigotry while engaging in hateful bigotry aimed at Christians.

 

[Caliban]

I don't think it is useful to try so desperately to make one whose opinion is in opposition to one's own seem to be a demon by inferring something that was not implied. An attempt at demonization often occurs when one has no argument that one is confident will be persuasive. Accusing Christians of engaging in hateful bigotry while engaging in hateful bigotry aimed at Christians.

Nice try. I am not engaging in the hateful bigotry of Christians. What I said must have resounded if you are falling back on the persecution narrative. No, my wife is a Christian, so are my parents and all of my family. I was one for most of my life--no hatred here.

When I defend a truly persecuted group, I am not reducing the freedoms of another, When gays are free to marry, a Christian's rights have not diminished one bit. Maybe there cultural privilege has though. That is not persecution.

 

[grasping the after wind]

You have missed the point entirely.

There are Christians in this country who oppose gay marriage and would like to see it outlawed. Whether they are right or wrong to do so is not at issue here. Do you deny that such Christians exist?
It is my observation that in this country at the present time opposition to gay marriage comes largely from these Christians. Do you have any evidence that this is not true?

In a population in which 65% comes form one specific demographic group I would expect the main opposition to anything might come from that group. What difference would it make. I think you might find that a large percentage of the support for gay marriage may well also come from that group. I don't see how pointing out someone's religion makes the case for persuaing opponents to begin supporting the policy one wants to be enforced.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Nice try. I am not engaging in the hateful bigotry of Christians. What I said must have resounded if you are falling back on the persecution narrative. No, my wife is a Christian, so are my parents and all of my family. I was one for most of my life--no hatred here.

When I defend a truly persecuted group, I am not reducing the freedoms of another, When gays are free to marry, a Christian's rights have not diminished one bit. Maybe there cultural privilege has though. That is not persecution.

Many of my best friends are Christian and not every one of them are hateful bigots wallowing in their homophobia. I am sure there are some few that don't practice wallowing while engaging in their hateful bigotry and cultural privilege.

 

[Caliban]

Many of my best friends are Christian and not every one of them are hateful bigots wallowing in their homophobia. I am sure there are some few that don't practice wallowing while engaging in their hateful bigotry and cultural privilege.

Maybe you know some decent people. Do they all support gay marriage?

 

[Speedwell]

In a population in which 65% comes form one specific demographic group I would expect the main opposition to anything might come from that group. What difference would it make. I think you might find that a large percentage of the support for gay marriage may well also come from that group. I don't see how pointing out someone's religion makes the case for persuaing opponents to begin supporting the policy one wants to be enforced.

I think you are being disingenuous about that 65%. You're not the only one, as I know full well from having lived in the Bible Belt as an Anglican (a so-called "Bible-hating, Christ-denying commie.")

No, I am not an Episcopalian. The branch of the Anglican Communion to which I belong is conservative and regards gay marriage as a sin, but there is no thought of making it illegal or promoting Christian Nationalism.