Struggling with our church....

[Kit Sigmon]

Forgive, ask the Lord to help you in walking that out each day.

As for your church, which sounds a lot like ours...we're in building mode
and also building maintenance as well and the funds be low now.

There was accountability and all kind of higher ups came and reviewed
the church's records, attendance/growth, assets, liabilities etc and they
gave the thumbs up...so last year's building project started.

So we been in the new expansion for just over a year and now there's
maintenance that needs to be done...expensive too and we're all
hearing sermons that be around or involving giving, being good steward etc.

(Me an my husband weren't in favor of the building project(s), due to
past experiences with other church building projects and them leading
to few volunteers that actually do the work....lots of enthusiasm but
workers?not so much...including my husband there was three men to
do the interior finishes and there was an on going call for volunteers...it
fell on deaf ears...an no, our church isn't small either.)


Now the church is cutting back on the lights and heat...and there's
talk of doing more cosmetic work on the interior so it matches up with the
newer addition... remember me saying that there were 3 guys who did the
interior finish work on the new addition? OK, well one of them moved away
recently.

Now me and my husband don't live in a too small of town but we do live in a retirement community since we're both retired now and living on fixed income and we can't give any more money because we living on half income as it is, but my
husband picks up a day or two work each week at a local farm and with that we're
able to make ends meet.
No moving for us or changing churches, not doable due to family situations.
So we live where we're planted, we may not like our church carrying a
really hefty mortgage but I firmly believe they going to learn a hard lesson
about being up to their eyeballs in debt.
The weight of the debt is hindering and the leadership at church know it now,
since me and my husband be involved in ministry there, we know how things stand.

So I say this to you, let the Lord deal with the matter, He will bring you through this hardship and the leadership/higher ups and the members will learn they lessons the hard way about being good stewards.

Read Micah 6:8 and live it out each day.

Also, we are connected with another ministry that's not head over hills in debt
and it's been a blessing to be connected with a ministry that's able
to do outreach programs for those who are in need and it's nice not to be hearing
so many talks on giving, raising funds for the maintenance and cosmetic
improvements all the time(like it's been going on at our church).

 

[gym_class_hero]

are people coming to Christ and are lives being changed thru this church? If the church is doing those things and you can afford it, I would support it to the best of my ability. Sounds like something you need to be in prayer over. Are the facilities large enough to handle the amount of people that attend? I think that would also be a factor in a decision I would make.

 

[Archivist]

Apparently your church operates differently than my church. In my church the pastor is responsible for the spiritual lives of the congregation so the youth group would largely fall into his (or her--we have had both) bailiwick. However church property and finances are the responsibility of the church council so a building campaign is council's responsibility, not the pastor's.

 

[petunia72]

Forgive, ask the Lord to help you in walking that out each day.

As for your church, which sounds a lot like ours...we're in building mode
and also building maintenance as well and the funds be low now.

There was accountability and all kind of higher ups came and reviewed
the church's records, attendance/growth, assets, liabilities etc and they
gave the thumbs up...so last year's building project started.

So we been in the new expansion for just over a year and now there's
maintenance that needs to be done...expensive too and we're all
hearing sermons that be around or involving giving, being good steward etc.

(Me an my husband weren't in favor of the building project(s), due to
past experiences with other church building projects and them leading
to few volunteers that actually do the work....lots of enthusiasm but
workers?not so much...including my husband there was three men to
do the interior finishes and there was an on going call for volunteers...it
fell on deaf ears...an no, our church isn't small either.)


Now the church is cutting back on the lights and heat...and there's
talk of doing more cosmetic work on the interior so it matches up with the
newer addition... remember me saying that there were 3 guys who did the
interior finish work on the new addition? OK, well one of them moved away
recently.

Now me and my husband don't live in a too small of town but we do live in a retirement community since we're both retired now and living on fixed income and we can't give any more money because we living on half income as it is, but my
husband picks up a day or two work each week at a local farm and with that we're
able to make ends meet.
No moving for us or changing churches, not doable due to family situations.
So we live where we're planted, we may not like our church carrying a
really hefty mortgage but I firmly believe they going to learn a hard lesson
about being up to their eyeballs in debt.
The weight of the debt is hindering and the leadership at church know it now,
since me and my husband be involved in ministry there, we know how things stand.

So I say this to you, let the Lord deal with the matter, He will bring you through this hardship and the leadership/higher ups and the members will learn they lessons the hard way about being good stewards.

Read Micah 6:8 and live it out each day.

Also, we are connected with another ministry that's not head over hills in debt
and it's been a blessing to be connected with a ministry that's able
to do outreach programs for those who are in need and it's nice not to be hearing
so many talks on giving, raising funds for the maintenance and cosmetic
improvements all the time(like it's been going on at our church).

Thank you for your experience and that verse.

 

[salt-n-light]

I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?

So your pastor wants growth.
Your pastor puts so much effort in growth of numbers.
You pastor put so much focus on it that it is causing conflict financially among the brethren.
The growth of numbers is being a hindrance on being truly edifying to the saints, both young and old.
All this, and you prayed and yet....you haven't gone to a planned meeting?

Have you tried bringing it up with your pastor? Have you given him ideas on better ways to deal with such things? Have you scheduled time before?

 

[com7fy8]

So we been in the new expansion for just over a year and now there's
maintenance that needs to be done...expensive too and we're all
hearing sermons that be around or involving giving, being good steward etc.

I think if we read the Bible, we can see how much attention financial giving gets in comparison with other things, and what is the main subject and purpose of the New Testament. Does the ministry feed you thoroughly about our calling to submit to how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us in His own peace, and all which is involved in this which is part of our basic Christian calling? >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

We are "called" to this; so yes this is part of our calling in Christ, for all "in one body".

And our Apostle Paul says for us to walk worthy of our calling >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

And there is plenty more about how to relate with one another and minister to one another (including Ephesians 4:14-16) as God's family.

And with obeying our basic calling comes the giving which God guides us to do. But if ones are calling for giving for what is not God's will . . . that giving is not good stewardship. And possibly Kit is giving an example of this >

leadership/higher ups and the members will learn they lessons the hard way about being good stewards.

By the way - - I was told, that if you are a member of a church where I am, you are legally liable for the debts of that church. So, if I knew my church leadership was not obeying God and was getting in trouble and not even giving me any say, at all, about it . . . I possibly would discontinue legal association with that church.

And a really Christian family is likely busy with helping people personally, so that they might not have time to be serving a building; and their funds are busy with helping people they know personally with much more real needs than building cosmetics.

So, does he preach about how we need to be good stewards, by using our resources in personal loving of people we know?

Are the facilities large enough to handle the amount of people that attend? I think that would also be a factor in a decision I would make.

I suppose you could have more than one service, and have Saturday evening or even day services for people who have to work on Sunday, and for other reasons. This could split up the number, and produce churches more personally sharing.

And does the ministry of your church produce maturing members who become able to pastor? You can birth another church, using a building or a home location. People have used barns, even. How much do you use home groups for ministering more personally? If it's all on the pastor and mainly or only about the pastor >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

A successful example leader will produce others who also minister effectively for us to mature in Jesus in our basic calling, including Colossians 3:15 and Ephesians 4:1-2, and all else.

However church property and finances are the responsibility of the church council so a building campaign is council's responsibility, not the pastor's.

I think of how Peter and the other apostles knew they should not be distracted with material management, but give themselves "'to prayer and to the ministry of the word.'" (see Acts 6:1-7) And they ordained deacons to handle distribution of resources.

By the way, their material management, was mainly about caring for the needs of Christians, not for buildings.

And they did things with agreement and one accord > Acts 6:5, Acts 2:1-3, Acts 15:24-26.

So, possibly you and your husband can pray until God has you clear and in agreement, and find out who also is being prayerful and in agreement, and do what works out with these people who are maturing in Jesus and obviously helping you to grow in Christ and in God's word.

You do not have to control what your church does, but we do need to obey God and do His will, ourselves. And Hebrews 13:17 says we must obey those who rule over us. This means leaders who are doing God's will, whom God approves. So, we do not have the option of staying with a church and pastor which is not obeying God.

But it takes prayer and honesty to become able to know who is a real and approved pastor; because we will be required to obey how a real pastor pastors us, especially by following the pastor's genuine example > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

But yes we will have impossible and stubborn people to deal with, and what do you suppose God uses to help such people?

1 Peter 3:1-4 gives us an example of how example can be used by God.

God can use your example to help anyone. But this does not mean only your acting and how you tone your voice, but in us our example in the sight of God. How we really are can spread to make others the same way, including our children. So, we do not want to be excuse-making people but examples.

 

[petunia72]

So your pastor wants growth.
Your pastor puts so much effort in growth of numbers.
You pastor put so much focus on it that it is causing conflict financially among the brethren.
The growth of numbers is being a hindrance on being truly edifying to the saints, both young and old.
All this, and you prayed and yet....you haven't gone to a planned meeting?

Have you tried bringing it up with your pastor? Have you given him ideas on better ways to deal with such things? Have you scheduled time before?

No, I haven't brought it up with him. I haven't gone to one of the meetings, because we are expected to write down a financial commitment, and I'm not ready for that.

 

[com7fy8]

I haven't gone to one of the meetings, because we are expected to write down a financial commitment, and I'm not ready for that.

That can be a basic method of fundraising . . . that if you are not going to commit to giving money, then they do not want to hear your opinion about financial decisions. Even so, Petunia . . . you can talk privately with people who are involved in financial matters, giving input without going to the meetings. And they will answer to God, about what you say and if they need to consider anything you offer.

In my case, Petunia, I trust our leaders; so I give what I do, help with church hospitality, and I don't pay much attention to what they do with money. I need to give attention to doing what God has me do.

Attention in the right place can do more than any amount of money in the wrong place.

If you do not trust your pastor . . . I think we should be with a pastor whom we trust and we know God approves that person.

However, as ones of us have indicated, the reason we don't trust someone could be because of our own unforgiveness and bitterness making us unable to tell the difference between whom to trust and whom not to trust. Only with God can we have honest perception. So, we have no excuse not to find out who is trustworthy . . . whom God trusts.

But any leader can be wrong, at times; and God expects us to test everything and hold to what is good > 1 Thessalonians 5:21. We are not excused, then, to go along with what is wrong. And with God we can be reliable to test what God Himself knows is good.

So, we can pray and trust God to correct us and to personally enlighten us and guide us. In His peace ruling in our hearts (Colossians 3:15), we are clear and satisfied (Matthew 11:28-30) while guided with Him according to all which He knows is true . . . not depending only on what we can see > John 7:24.

So, in ourselves we need to know who is Jesus and who is not Jesus in our feelings and emotions and thinking. Unforgiveness and bitterness clearly are not Jesus! And there is arguing and complaining which can help to keep us the wrong way, so we are not able to know God's will > Philippians 2:13-16.

As we get rid of anti-love things, we can discover how we can be and share in God's love. And in our Creator's love, Petunia, we discover His creativity being shared with us, so we do what is beneficial, in spite of however impossible people are going the wrong way

So, this is worth the investment better than a financial commitment

 

[Root of Jesse]

I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?

I would really look at the pastor's demeanor and how he lives. How much does he make? Does he wear $1000 suits? What does he drive and where does he live?
All that said, I appreciate that a pastor needs to make a living, have a home and a car, and have something decent to wear. He needs insurance, medical care, school for his children, etc. But at what level?
I'm Catholic, and have been in parishes where they are always wanting more money, to the detriment of whatever message there was. We voted with our feet, and never looked back. We believe that all our gifts, all we earn, all we have, is God's, and try to live frugally to the point we can give substantially, but most of what we give does not go to our parish. It goes to other groups. I also believe that some of our gifts are our talents, and should also be given as part of our generosity.

 

[RisenInJesus]

No, I haven't brought it up with him. I haven't gone to one of the meetings, because we are expected to write down a financial commitment, and I'm not ready for that.

You could try going to the meetings and simply say that you are not ready and have not been led by the Holy Spirit at this point to write down a financial commitment. If the pastor objects or has anything negative to say about that and is not willing to respect God's leading for you in this matter... then something is wrong.

 

[Dave G.]

No, I haven't brought it up with him. I haven't gone to one of the meetings, because we are expected to write down a financial commitment, and I'm not ready for that.

I wouldn't be ready for that either . I might add, Ever.

 

[Barney]

I disagree with people advising a new church. Our church should be like our family, and you don't bail on your family for anything that's not huge. And, this isn't huge.

I also think the annoyance factor here outstrips the pastor's offense. Every pastor wants to grow his church, and that often includes dreams of a new building. Maybe he's overly obsessed with this. I would just talk to him and gently suggest that the congregation isn't ready for what he wants. If that fails, just don't be a party to his efforts, nor feel guilty about not being a party to it.

Are the kids not learning about the Bible? Is he even responsible for how the youth group operates? Many churches today are mostly about entertaining the adults with church candy, and not giving adults meat to grow on. Entertaining youth has become a standard practice in churches, too.

Sometimes you need to be a missionary to your church.

 

[petunia72]

That can be a basic method of fundraising . . . that if you are not going to commit to giving money, then they do not want to hear your opinion about financial decisions. Even so, Petunia . . . you can talk privately with people who are involved in financial matters, giving input without going to the meetings. And they will answer to God, about what you say and if they need to consider anything you offer.

In my case, Petunia, I trust our leaders; so I give what I do, help with church hospitality, and I don't pay much attention to what they do with money. I need to give attention to doing what God has me do.

Attention in the right place can do more than any amount of money in the wrong place.

If you do not trust your pastor . . . I think we should be with a pastor whom we trust and we know God approves that person.

However, as ones of us have indicated, the reason we don't trust someone could be because of our own unforgiveness and bitterness making us unable to tell the difference between whom to trust and whom not to trust. Only with God can we have honest perception. So, we have no excuse not to find out who is trustworthy . . . whom God trusts.

Yes, this is something that I'm working on. I know I've gotten bitter about some things in my life, and it has definitely seeped into other areas. I've been in a very lonely stage of life for a few years now, and I want to come out on the other side a changed person. But the loneliness has a way of making a person bitter..

 

[petunia72]

I disagree with people advising a new church. Our church should be like our family, and you don't bail on your family for anything that's not huge. And, this isn't huge.

I also think the annoyance factor here outstrips the pastor's offense. Every pastor wants to grow his church, and that often includes dreams of a new building. Maybe he's overly obsessed with this. I would just talk to him and gently suggest that the congregation isn't ready for what he wants. If that fails, just don't be a party to his efforts, nor feel guilty about not being a party to it.

Are the kids not learning about the Bible? Is he even responsible for how the youth group operates? Many churches today are mostly about entertaining the adults with church candy, and not giving adults meat to grow on. Entertaining youth has become a standard practice in churches, too.

Sometimes you need to be a missionary to your church.

My 14 y.o. has pretty much stopped going to youth group, because it's become basically the same as public school. Popularity rules. My 6 y.o. goes to the little kids youth group. My 2 in college went to youth group all throughout middle and high school, and loved it. But it was much different then. They were also part of the "popular" group, according to the youth pastors, so of course their experience was great. We felt convicted about 5 years ago to pull all our children out of public school and homeschool them, and while we feel that God has blessed us through that, it's also been really difficult. Our church is extremely pro-public school, and is basically the reason why our town had enough "yes" votes to build a new 20-million elementary school. People in my church basically bullied people. Even my husband and I were confronted during church one day that if we weren't voting yes, that we should stay home and not vote.
So, to answer your questions "Are the kids not learning about the Bible?" They most definitely are, but they're learning about it from me.

 

[tansy]

He had tried selling it, but couldn't. He was desperate, just as he is now, to have a new church. So he asked my husband to buy it. At the time, I was bothered because it isn't something that my husband and I heard from God about, but rather were pressured by our pastor.

Why does he want to build a new church? I mean, I don't know what your church set-up is and how these things work in America, but if the church is actually growing in numbers, perhaps there's another way around it? I f there are too many congregants to meet in a service, perhaps the pastor could do two services, if necessary getting the assistant pastor to lead one of them.
It certainly seems to me that if he is asking people for money and commitments for the next three years etc, that those considering donating, should know exactly the whys and wherefores and what is happening with the money. At my church, they used to publish account and so forth, and we could certainly question the leaders about projects that were going on.
I would suggest (though, only my opinion) that you don't rush in and give blindly - obviously pray, but perhaps wait and see.

 

[Barney]

People in my church basically bullied people. Even my husband and I were confronted during church one day that if we weren't voting yes, that we should stay home and not vote.

It baffles me why many Christians are strong supporters of public schools, given that public schools have become an enemy of the Christian faith.

 

[tansy]

My 14 y.o. has pretty much stopped going to youth group, because it's become basically the same as public school. Popularity rules. My 6 y.o. goes to the little kids youth group. My 2 in college went to youth group all throughout middle and high school, and loved it. But it was much different then. They were also part of the "popular" group, according to the youth pastors, so of course their experience was great. We felt convicted about 5 years ago to pull all our children out of public school and homeschool them, and while we feel that God has blessed us through that, it's also been really difficult. Our church is extremely pro-public school, and is basically the reason why our town had enough "yes" votes to build a new 20-million elementary school. People in my church basically bullied people. Even my husband and I were confronted during church one day that if we weren't voting yes, that we should stay home and not vote.
So, to answer your questions "Are the kids not learning about the Bible?" They most definitely are, but they're learning about it from me.

Good grief! Not saying that churches (or people in churches) are perfect, but some of what's been said, sounds terrible. . Sometime things can go quite badly wrong in churches

 

[Blade]

To pray about this is wise...but this "PASTOR" is not here. Just look and read what others say about someone they NEVER heard of or heard preach. Point? What if this was YOU someone was talking about. All you hear is how so and so feels. This can lead to busy bodies.

Take this to the pastor. Tell him everything..how you feel. .. we speak that which is good to the use of edifying that it may minister grace to the hearers.

 

[LoveNature]

I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?

My church used to do that too, my brother and I didn't like going to the teenage class because we never learnt anything, it was just a massive discussion about irrelevant things :/ I always preferred the adults church because their spirits were actually being fed. If anything , churches need to put even more effort into young people than adults because they are more easily influenced and young people these days are just running a mock.

Is there no way you can maybe mention your uncomfortability with paying to your pastor?

 

[ToBeLoved]

To pray about this is wise...but this "PASTOR" is not here. Just look and read what others say about someone they NEVER heard of or heard preach. Point? What if this was YOU someone was talking about. All you hear is how so and so feels. This can lead to busy bodies.

Take this to the pastor. Tell him everything..how you feel. .. we speak that which is good to the use of edifying that it may minister grace to the hearers.

You think a church this influenced in politics she should speak out?

When church is too into politics I think that is bad. Very bad.

Jesus said to Pilot, that if His Kingdom were of this earth, His disciples would fight to keep Him here. But it is not, so His disciples did not fight.

Second example is the Pharisees who used religion to help control politics. Jesus wasn’t happy. See Matthew 23

My advice is not to speak to the pastor unless she really trusts him. Why should she have a target on her. If this is the pastors thord time trying to push this through, then he wants it to happen. Period.