Struggling to grasp.....

[bmjackson]

the difference between the patristic theological system, and the western ones who had their beginings in the changes Augustine made, which l have read, incorporated ancient Greek philosophical ideas like, death is a good thing. He also began a new interpretation of Romans 7, unknown till then, which said that man will sin all of his life.

Fr John Romanised has been helpful here, (please don't get into calling him a heretic) but without theological training myself, is tough going.

I believe in the three stages to perfection, and glorification in this life, which seems to have lost support in modern day Orthodoxy it which l feel is vital in these days to survive so it is in an apologetic sense that l am searching. Thank you.

 

[HTacianas]

the difference between the patristic theological system, and the western ones who had their beginings in the changes Augustine made, which l have read, incorporated ancient Greek philosophical ideas like, death is a good thing. He also began a new interpretation of Romans 7, unknown till then, which said that man will sin all of his life.

Fr John Romanised has been helpful here, (please don't get into calling him a heretic) but without theological training myself, is tough going.

I believe in the three stages to perfection, and glorification in this life, which seems to have lost support in modern day Orthodoxy it which l feel is vital in these days to survive so it is in an apologetic sense that l am searching. Thank you.

I had heard of Fr. John in the past but honestly never knew anything about him until I just now googled him. At first glance I'm beginning to like him. He said of Augustine's ideas:

"they appear to be the result of philosophical or logical speculation and conjecture..."

John Romanides - Wikipedia

I feel the same way about Augustine and Western thought in general. It always struck me that Western theologians were seeking complex answers to simple problems. They relied on reason -not in itself a bad thing at all- to work through problems and then sought out to write everything down in the minutest detail. It seems to me that that level of detail can lead to error. And when a minute error is repeated it eventually becomes dogma. I prefer the Eastern method of speaking in somewhat broad generalities but when it comes to those minute details there is no shame in saying "I don't know".

As to glorification in this life, I see it as something very few ever obtain. The Great Deception makes it even harder. It causes some to give up and fall into condemnation, some to ignore it and continue on to perfection, but then many who are distracted by it rather than deceived so they never find their full potential.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the differences are first and foremost from approach. St Augustine was the first Christian writer who really gained steam by speculating about God. the more ancient approach (going back to the ancient Israelites) is to experience God, and then articulate that experience as best you can knowing human limitation.

 

[bmjackson]

I had heard of Fr. John in the past but honestly never knew anything about him until I just now googled him. At first glance I'm beginning to like him. He said of Augustine's ideas:

"they appear to be the result of philosophical or logical speculation and conjecture..."

John Romanides - Wikipedia

I feel the same way about Augustine and Western thought in general. It always struck me that Western theologians were seeking complex answers to simple problems. They relied on reason -not in itself a bad thing at all- to work through problems and then sought out to write everything down in the minutest detail. It seems to me that that level of detail can lead to error. And when a minute error is repeated it eventually becomes dogma. I prefer the Eastern method of speaking in somewhat broad generalities but when it comes to those minute details there is no shame in saying "I don't know".

As to glorification in this life, I see it as something very few ever obtain. The Great Deception makes it even harder. It causes some to give up and fall into condemnation, some to ignore it and continue on to perfection, but then many who are distracted by it rather than deceived so they never find their full potential.

Hi HTacianas, thank you, I really liked your post.

"It always struck me that Western theologians were seeking complex answers to simple problems."

Yes that's a good way of seeing it.

My understanding so far is that patristic theology is based on direct revelation, and to those who have at least reached the stage of Illumination, and preferably theosis. The west do as you quoted from Fr John:

"they appear to be the result of philosophical or logical speculation and conjecture..."

The problem it seems is that as time went on, less and less of the theologians who were qualified to theologise were around.

"As to glorification in this life, I see it as something very few ever obtain. The Great Deception makes it even harder. It causes some to give up and fall into condemnation, some to ignore it and continue on to perfection, but then many who are distracted by it rather than deceived so they never find their full potential."

Yes indeed and very few indeed these days. It is surely a crisis situation and no doubt in my mind the reason why the world is in such a state. Only those who have a pure heart and clean hands are heard by God in intervention though He is so gracious as to make exemptions.

Thanks again, we seem to be on the same page

Brenda

 

[bmjackson]

the differences are first and foremost from approach. St Augustine was the first Christian writer who really gained steam by speculating about God. the more ancient approach (going back to the ancient Israelites) is to experience God, and then articulate that experience as best you can knowing human limitation.

Thanks ArmyMatt. I think that I was saying on direct revelation. The only denomination in the west that I have found is the early Quakers whose did not accept sola scriptura and whose spirituality was near the patristic one.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks ArmyMatt. I think that I was saying on direct revelation. The only denomination in the west that I have found is the early Quakers whose did not accept sola scriptura and whose spirituality was near the patristic one.

no problem. early Methodists are close too.

 

[bmjackson]

Well they were Protestants, whereas early Quakers said they were not, and their theology was similar just with entire sanctification added on.

Early Quakers did not believe that scripture is our primary authority. The Holy Spirit through direct revelation is which I believe is tradition in EO terms, with scripture being confirmation.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Did he, though? St. Augustine seemed to be experiencing God when the Lord inspired him to take up and read the Scriptures through the voice of a child next door. If I recall correctly, the child was repeating "Take up and read!" and Augustine heard the pristine voice of the little child and felt it was the call of God Himself. He thought back to St. Anthony in a similar manner and felt that God would guide him to the correct place to read. St. Augustine opened the Scriptures and read Romans about not living in the flesh and carnal lust, etc. Augustine felt this was God admonishing and guiding him to the precise sin with which he struggled. Isn't this an experience of God?

I don't think most of the Fathers had this continual Moses at the Burning Bush experience where God was constantly speaking to them in that way outright in solitude audibly. I always felt it was some of that, and some of the inspiration if not much of it was in their hearts and minds and prayers?

the differences are first and foremost from approach. St Augustine was the first Christian writer who really gained steam by speculating about God. the more ancient approach (going back to the ancient Israelites) is to experience God, and then articulate that experience as best you can knowing human limitation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Did he, though? St. Augustine seemed to be experiencing God when the Lord inspired him to take up and read the Scriptures through the voice of a child next door. If I recall correctly, the child was repeating "Take up and read!" and Augustine heard the pristine voice of the little child and felt it was the call of God Himself. He thought back to St. Anthony in a similar manner and felt that God would guide him to the correct place to read. St. Augustine opened the Scriptures and read Romans about not living in the flesh and carnal lust, etc. Augustine felt this was God admonishing and guiding him to the precise sin with which he struggled. Isn't this an experience of God?

I don't think most of the Fathers had this continual Moses at the Burning Bush experience where God was constantly speaking to them in that way outright in solitude audibly. I always felt it was some of that, and some of the inspiration if not much of it was in their hearts and minds and prayers?

yes, he did. and that isn’t to say he didn’t have legit experiences. and while it’s true, many of the Fathers didn’t have a Moses like experience, many did. our theology is based on those who did or those who rearticulated those who did.

 

[bmjackson]

Did he, though? St. Augustine seemed to be experiencing God when the Lord inspired him to take up and read the Scriptures through the voice of a child next door. If I recall correctly, the child was repeating "Take up and read!" and Augustine heard the pristine voice of the little child and felt it was the call of God Himself. He thought back to St. Anthony in a similar manner and felt that God would guide him to the correct place to read. St. Augustine opened the Scriptures and read Romans about not living in the flesh and carnal lust, etc. Augustine felt this was God admonishing and guiding him to the precise sin with which he struggled. Isn't this an experience of God?

I don't think most of the Fathers had this continual Moses at the Burning Bush experience where God was constantly speaking to them in that way outright in solitude audibly. I always felt it was some of that, and some of the inspiration if not much of it was in their hearts and minds and prayers?

Augustine may have begun well, being guided by the Spirit but I believe he soon floundered and went against the teaching of the patristic theologians and especially their understanding of Romans 7 and the way to have victory over the sin nature and not just individual sins - unsaved ex alcoholics do that. You do know that his interpretation is that Paul is describing the normal Christian life?

Walking in the Spirit does not entail burning bushes, just clear guidance by the Spirit once one has obtained a pure heart. Without a pure heart, it only happens now and again not constantly.

 

[Not David]

Augustine may have begun well, being guided by the Spirit but I believe he soon floundered and went against the teaching of the patristic theologians and especially their understanding of Romans 7 and the way to have victory over the sin nature and not just individual sins - unsaved ex alcoholics do that. You do know that his interpretation is that Paul is describing the normal Christian life?

Walking in the Spirit does not entail burning bushes, just clear guidance by the Spirit once one has obtained a pure heart. Without a pure heart, it only happens now and again not constantly.

St Augustine had some good stuff and other that needed careful understanding. What's annoying is that some people try to take away his sainthood because of those mistakes.

 

[ArmyMatt]

St Augustine had some good stuff and other that needed careful understanding. What's annoying is that some people try to take away his sainthood because of those mistakes.

plus Constantinople III calls him a saint so….

 

[bmjackson]

St Augustine had some good stuff and other that needed careful understanding. What's annoying is that some people try to take away his sainthood because of those mistakes.

What is a saint? According to patristic theology it is one who has obtained theosis, unity with Christ, the end of the passions. Augustine did not believe the Christian could be without passions and went against the Tradition handed down in just about anything.

He blinded people with his literary skills and philosophy and ruined the spirituality of the whole west who followed him. A man led by the Holy Spirit corrects his few mistakes (not sins)

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is a saint? According to patristic theology it is one who has obtained theosis, unity with Christ, the end of the passions. Augustine did not believe the Christian could be without passions and went against the Tradition handed down in just about anything.

He blinded people with his literary skills and philosophy and ruined the spirituality of the whole west who followed him. A man led by the Holy Spirit corrects his few mistakes (not sins)

again, the 6th Ecumenical Council calls him a saint.

 

[bmjackson]

"Eastern Orthodox theologians John Romanides and George Papademetriou say that some of Augustine's teachings were actually condemned as those of Barlaam the Calabrian at the Hesychast or Fifth Council of Constantinople 1351.[15][16][17] It is the vision or revelation of God (theoria) that gives one knowledge of God.[note 6] Theoria, contemplatio in Latin, as indicated by John Cassian,[19] meaning vision of God, is closely connected with theosis (divinization).[note 7]

John Romanides reports that Augustinian theology is generally ignored in the Eastern Orthodox church.[note 8] Romanides states that the Roman Catholic Church, starting with Augustine, has removed the mystical experience (revelation) of God (theoria) from Christianity and replaced it with the conceptualization of revelation through the philosophical speculation of metaphysics.[20][21][note 9] Romanides does not consider the metaphysics of Augustine to be Orthodox but Pagan mysticism.[note 10] Romanides states that Augustine's Platonic mysticism was condemned by the Eastern Orthodox within the church condemnation of Barlaam of Calabria at the Hesychast councils in Constantinople.[note 11]"

Wiki.

 

[ArmyMatt]

"Eastern Orthodox theologians John Romanides and George Papademetriou say that some of Augustine's teachings were actually condemned as those of Barlaam the Calabrian at the Hesychast or Fifth Council of Constantinople 1351.[15][16][17] It is the vision or revelation of God (theoria) that gives one knowledge of God.[note 6] Theoria, contemplatio in Latin, as indicated by John Cassian,[19] meaning vision of God, is closely connected with theosis (divinization).[note 7]

John Romanides reports that Augustinian theology is generally ignored in the Eastern Orthodox church.[note 8] Romanides states that the Roman Catholic Church, starting with Augustine, has removed the mystical experience (revelation) of God (theoria) from Christianity and replaced it with the conceptualization of revelation through the philosophical speculation of metaphysics.[20][21][note 9] Romanides does not consider the metaphysics of Augustine to be Orthodox but Pagan mysticism.[note 10] Romanides states that Augustine's Platonic mysticism was condemned by the Eastern Orthodox within the church condemnation of Barlaam of Calabria at the Hesychast councils in Constantinople.[note 11]"

Wiki.

Wikipedia quoting modern academics isn’t near the same level of authority as an Ecumenical Council.

plus, there is a difference between condemning some of the teachings of a person, and condemning the person.

 

[bmjackson]

I saw Fr John Romanides writing somewhere, the reason why the 6th Ecumenical Council classed him a saint - it was lack of important information to the contrary. That would explain why his teachings were later condemned. Will post if I find it - not in a hurry today having covid.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I saw Fr John Romanides writing somewhere, the reason why the 6th Ecumenical Council classed him a saint - it was lack of important information to the contrary. That would explain why his teachings were later condemned. Will post if I find it - not in a hurry today having covid.

that assumes the Holy Spirit didn’t actually guide the Council.

 

[bmjackson]

That presupposes that the majority there were at least in the state of Illumination for Him to do so.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That presupposes that the majority there were at least in the state of Illumination for Him to do so.

that assumes the Spirit’s power to affirm the truth is based on our level of illumination.