Struggle with understanding Christianity

[dms1972]

Most of my life it seems I have struggled with understanding christianity. I want to understand first in my mind, understand how it works. But I seem to be only left with an existential leap in the dark. I am not sure why this perhaps because of philosophy or theology I read. I was in strong reaction to how I understood calvinistic theology even as a kid. Maybe I didn't understand it - I don't remember but I did have discussions about it. I think I later read Kierkegarrd and Barth and Bultmann, and accepted some of that, but I felt that left me without spiritual kinship to my dad, who was a missionary, I just felt my dad was of a whole different outlook spiritually. So I went someway in the modernist direction, while my dad remained I suppose in the Bible believing camp.

My dad passed away many years ago, my mother is still alive, but on in years, and at times we have discussions in which I sometimes press her for an answer on some question about the Bible.

This is the point of my thread - I have been told growing up to believe the Bible, and that seems to mean simply believe what it says (however some writers tell me I should try to be persuaded that the Bible is true first before I believe - but its truth was not really in question for my parents. But if I ask about a verse no one can answer, except by saying that they would need to read that portion of scripture again.

So it happened tonight I was talking about several things and I went on to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and the verse "...whatever you did for the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." And I asked "Who does that refer to, who is Jesus talking about here when he says the least of these brothers and sisters of mine?"

Now its easy to go and look up that verse in a commentary and see what they say, and I have done that sometimes, but I tend to not stop at one commentary and end up with five answers!!!!

But who are the brothers and sisters Jesus speaks about?

You see it feels like I am expected at times to take a blind leap without understanding. I don't think this is a "salvation" verse. But I've got the impression that as far as salvation its a case of "woe be to you, if you move an inch without the grace of God, or if you make faith a work." etc.

God doesn't seem real to me, I know there was a time long ago when I was fearful of God, but I don't know, I think I accepted reality was secular at some point.

 

[Guojing]

Most of my life it seems I have struggled with understanding christianity. I want to understand first in my mind, understand how it works. But I seem to be only left with an existential leap in the dark. I am not sure why this perhaps because of philosophy or theology I read. I was in strong reaction to how I understood calvinistic theology even as a kid. Maybe I didn't understand it - I don't remember but I did have discussions about it. I think I later read Kierkegarrd and Barth and Bultmann, and accepted some of that, but I felt that left me without spiritual kinship to my dad, who was a missionary, I just felt my dad was of a whole different outlook spiritually. So I went someway in the modernist direction, while my dad remained I suppose in the Bible believing camp.

My dad passed away many years ago, my mother is still alive, but on in years, and at times we have discussions in which I sometimes press her for an answer on some question about the Bible.

This is the point of my thread - I have been told growing up to believe the Bible, and that seems to mean simply believe what it says (however some writers tell me I should try to be persuaded that the Bible is true first before I believe - but its truth was not really in question for my parents. But if I ask about a verse no one can answer, except by saying that they would need to read that portion of scripture again.

So it happened tonight I was talking about several things and I went on to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and the verse "...whatever you did for the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." And I asked "Who does that refer to, who is Jesus talking about here when he says the least of these brothers and sisters of mine?"

Now its easy to go and look up that verse in a commentary and see what they say, and I have done that sometimes, but I tend to not stop at one commentary and end up with five answers!!!!

But who are the brothers and sisters Jesus speaks about?

You see I feels like I am expected at times to take a blind leap without understanding. I don't think this is a "salvation" verse. But I've got the impression that as far as salvation its a case of "woe be to you, if you move an inch without the grace of God, or if you make faith a work." etc.

God doesn't seem real to me, I know there was a time long ago when I was fearful of God, but I don't know, I think I accepted reality was secular at some point.

To understand a bible passage in context, a few questions you can ask is who the audience was and how would they understand it?

Jesus was speaking to the house of Israel and Jews during this first coming (Matthew 15:24).

To Jews, they call each other "brethren".

The sheep and the goat judgement is a judgement of "all nations". This plural term always refers to gentile nations. In contrast, Israel was the favored nation of God, whenever Israel is referred to, it will be the singular "nation".

Thus, at the end of the Tribulation, all gentiles will be judged based on how they treat Jews, Jesus's brethren, during those years. As a gentile, if you want to "pass" that sheep and goat judgement, you will have to feed, give shelter, clothe, basically take care of the Jews when the latter is being persecuted.

Feel free to clarify if you have any questions about what is said above.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Didn't Jesus ask, 'Who are my brothers and sisters and mother'? Then pointing to his disciples he said, 'These are my brothers and sisters and mother'

To understand a bible passage in context, a few questions you can ask is who the audience was and how would they understand it?

Jesus was speaking to the house of Israel and Jews during this first coming (Matthew 15:24).

To Jews, they call each other "brethren".

The sheep and the goat judgement is a judgement of "all nations". This plural term always refers to gentile nations. In contrast, Israel was the favored nation of God, whenever Israel is referred to, it will be the singular "nation".

Thus, at the end of the Tribulation, all gentiles will be judged based on how they treat Jews, Jesus's brethren, during those years. As a gentile, if you want to "pass" that sheep and goat judgement, you will have to feed, give shelter, clothe, basically take care of the Jews when the latter is being persecuted.

Feel free to clarify if you have any questions about what is said above.

 

[Guojing]

Didn't Jesus ask, 'Who are my brothers and sisters and mother'? Then pointing to his disciples he said, 'These are my brothers and sisters and mother'

Yes, they are all still Jews, so it does not contradict my point about Jews referring to one another as "brethren".

 

[d taylor]

Most of my life it seems I have struggled with understanding christianity. I want to understand first in my mind, understand how it works. But I seem to be only left with an existential leap in the dark. I am not sure why this perhaps because of philosophy or theology I read. I was in strong reaction to how I understood calvinistic theology even as a kid. Maybe I didn't understand it - I don't remember but I did have discussions about it. I think I later read Kierkegarrd and Barth and Bultmann, and accepted some of that, but I felt that left me without spiritual kinship to my dad, who was a missionary, I just felt my dad was of a whole different outlook spiritually. So I went someway in the modernist direction, while my dad remained I suppose in the Bible believing camp.

My dad passed away many years ago, my mother is still alive, but on in years, and at times we have discussions in which I sometimes press her for an answer on some question about the Bible.

This is the point of my thread - I have been told growing up to believe the Bible, and that seems to mean simply believe what it says (however some writers tell me I should try to be persuaded that the Bible is true first before I believe - but its truth was not really in question for my parents. But if I ask about a verse no one can answer, except by saying that they would need to read that portion of scripture again.

So it happened tonight I was talking about several things and I went on to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and the verse "...whatever you did for the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." And I asked "Who does that refer to, who is Jesus talking about here when he says the least of these brothers and sisters of mine?"

Now its easy to go and look up that verse in a commentary and see what they say, and I have done that sometimes, but I tend to not stop at one commentary and end up with five answers!!!!

But who are the brothers and sisters Jesus speaks about?

You see I feels like I am expected at times to take a blind leap without understanding. I don't think this is a "salvation" verse. But I've got the impression that as far as salvation its a case of "woe be to you, if you move an inch without the grace of God, or if you make faith a work." etc.

God doesn't seem real to me, I know there was a time long ago when I was fearful of God, but I don't know, I think I accepted reality was secular at some point.

The brothers and sisters are Jewish believers during the tribulation.

 

[Guojing]

The brothers and sisters are Jewish believers during the tribulation.

Nice to find another also understanding this literally

 

[d taylor]

Matthew 25:31-46: Salvation by Works? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Tolworth John]

God doesn't seem real to me, I know there was a time long ago when I was fearful of God, but I don't know, I think I accepted reality was secular at some point.

What do you believe about God, death, morality and an after life?

What evidence do you have for your beliefs?

Christianity depends on one historic fact. That Jesus rose from the dead.

So can you prove that he did not rise from the dead?

If he did, then what is your relationship with him, given that he said that he was the Only way to God?

 

[hedrick]

Commentators make a reasonable argument that "little ones" actually refer to Christians in Matthew. So he was probably saying that people will be judged based on how they treat Christians. However NT writers (and Jesus) were perfectly willing to repurpose OT texts, so I think we should feel free to do the same for this one, and regard it as saying we will be judged based on how we treat the most vulnerable. That's certainly consistent with how Jesus answered "who is my neighbor."

But your real question isn't "who are the little ones," but why does it seem that Jesus teaches judgement based on our works. I think it’s hard to avoid saying that Jesus and Paul used different conceptual frameworks. But I think there’s a deeper consistency. Paul objected to people who wanted to define Christians by circumcision and other Jewish cultic practices. He seems to have broadened this to criticizing Jewish confidence in their own moral superiority. He grounded Christianity on faith, by which he means trust in God, and I think a willingness to follow his commandments. He dealt with legalism by downplaying the Law. But he did, in passages in both 1 Cor and Galatians talk about being judged by our works.

Jesus also had to deal with legalism, in the form of the Pharisees. He didn’t do it by criticizing the Law in principle, but by interpreting it in a non-legalistic fashion that prioritized loving service to others. I maintain that the final results are similar to Paul, even though at the verbal level they seem to conflict.

But Jesus most certainly talked about judgement based on works. How can that work? First, Jesus was not an Augustinian. He didn’t start with the assumption that everyone was damned until they did something (whether faith, baptism, or works) to become “saved.” So works for him aren't something we need to do to merit God's love. God created us. He loves us.

However he recognized that there were people who rejected God. Generally I think you’ll find that the examples he gives of judgement weren’t due to “sins” in the sense Christians normally use it, but people who rejected love of God, their neighbor, or both. It’s probably also the case that not all judgement that he talks about is damnation. He used Jewish terms such as Gehenna. It appears (evidence is limited) that 1st Cent Jews understood that as temporary for most people, though not all, even though Gehenna itself was in some sense eternal. My sense is that he spoke of judgement in those terms. We will all face accountability for what we do. A few people will be found fundamentally opposed to God. In this forum it’s not allowed to debate what happens to them.

But Jesus clearly focused on intent and motivation. Mat 5 reinterprets many of the 10 commandments in that sense. I think you can interpret both this and Paul’s justification by faith as looking at what I’d call our fundamental orientation.

A majority of Pauline scholars will tell you that Paul taught justification by faith but judgement by works. There are a number of explanations of just how that works, but I think Jesus is similar. He taught that what matters is following him, with loving God and neighbor, but that there would be a judgement of our works. I think in most cases it will be something like 1 Cor 3:12ff, but that there will be people who are found to be fundamentally opposed to Christ.

 

[ldonjohn]

dms, if you will allow Him to work in you, God the Holy Spirit, can show you that the bible is true and that God is real. He did that for me, but only after I turned from my self efforts to understand and in desperation turned to Him by reading the Gospel of John looking for answers. He, God, convinced my troubled soul that the bible IS true, that God IS real, and that Jesus paid the penalty for my sin on the cross.

John

 

[James_Lai]

Most of my life it seems I have struggled with understanding christianity. I want to understand first in my mind, understand how it works. But I seem to be only left with an existential leap in the dark. I am not sure why this perhaps because of philosophy or theology I read. I was in strong reaction to how I understood calvinistic theology even as a kid. Maybe I didn't understand it - I don't remember but I did have discussions about it. I think I later read Kierkegarrd and Barth and Bultmann, and accepted some of that, but I felt that left me without spiritual kinship to my dad, who was a missionary, I just felt my dad was of a whole different outlook spiritually. So I went someway in the modernist direction, while my dad remained I suppose in the Bible believing camp.

My dad passed away many years ago, my mother is still alive, but on in years, and at times we have discussions in which I sometimes press her for an answer on some question about the Bible.

This is the point of my thread - I have been told growing up to believe the Bible, and that seems to mean simply believe what it says (however some writers tell me I should try to be persuaded that the Bible is true first before I believe - but its truth was not really in question for my parents. But if I ask about a verse no one can answer, except by saying that they would need to read that portion of scripture again.

So it happened tonight I was talking about several things and I went on to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and the verse "...whatever you did for the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." And I asked "Who does that refer to, who is Jesus talking about here when he says the least of these brothers and sisters of mine?"

Now its easy to go and look up that verse in a commentary and see what they say, and I have done that sometimes, but I tend to not stop at one commentary and end up with five answers!!!!

But who are the brothers and sisters Jesus speaks about?

You see I feels like I am expected at times to take a blind leap without understanding. I don't think this is a "salvation" verse. But I've got the impression that as far as salvation its a case of "woe be to you, if you move an inch without the grace of God, or if you make faith a work." etc.

God doesn't seem real to me, I know there was a time long ago when I was fearful of God, but I don't know, I think I accepted reality was secular at some point.

Yes, the Bible is often vague and confusing. So are some of the Christian doctrines.

Believing is a leap of faith for sure, no way around it. If you expect clarity and good explanation for everything, become a scientist. There if they don’t know, they’ll just honestly say we don’t know.

With religion it seems the only way to accept it is to live with contradictions and unanswered questions and be okay with it.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

rth

 

[Bob8102]

As I understand it, when Jesus says "you did these things" or "you did not do these things" (to the least of my brethren), He is talking to born again Christians when He says "you did these things;" He is talking to everyone else when He says "you did not do these things." Neither one or more acts of kindness can save your soul, nor will the failure to act damn you. You are saved or damned based on whether or not you trust Christ as your Lord and Savior.

As to James Lai's comments about scientists: Most scientists, those of the mainstream scientific community, are not as honest as you indicate. They were trained to believe standard theories of origins and natural history as fact; opposing, scientific points of view, such as those of biblical, young universe/earth creationists were not presented alongside in their schooling. Most scientists/educators/media types suppress creationism because they have been told it is not science, not because they have really checked out the evidence for themselves.

 

[James_Lai]

As I understand it, when Jesus says "you did these things" or "you did not do these things" (to the least of my brethren), He is talking to born again Christians when He says "you did these things;" He is talking to everyone else when He says "you did not do these things." Neither one or more acts of kindness can save your soul, nor will the failure to act damn you. You are saved or damned based on whether or not you trust Christ as your Lord and Savior.

As to James Lai's comments about scientists: Most scientists, those of the mainstream scientific community, are not as honest as you indicate. They were trained to believe standard theories of origins and natural history as fact; opposing, scientific points of view, such as those of biblical, young universe/earth creationists were not presented alongside in their schooling. Most scientists/educators/media types suppress creationism because they have been told it is not science, not because they have really checked out the evidence for themselves.

True, there’s enough of dogmatism in science. Could be in fundamentals or in a method etc. Overall though, in majority of problems, it’s quite straightforward, open-ended and not dogmatic. There’s more freedom for thought and no need in faith.

 

[dms1972]

What do you believe about God, death, morality and an after life?

I am not sure what I believe. I have had mental health issues, and I just don't know what I really believe.

 

[dms1972]

But Jesus most certainly talked about judgement based on works. How can that work? First, Jesus was not an Augustinian. He didn’t start with the assumption that everyone was damned until they did something (whether faith, baptism, or works) to become “saved.” So works for him aren't something we need to do to merit God's love. God created us. He loves us.

Thats interesting, can you say more? How did Augustine get that idea - because some form of it seems quite widespread in churches.

What was the purpose of Jesus death in your view?

I was reading Oswald Chambers and he talks about two works of Grace. He writes:

"The first sovereign work of grace is summed up in the words - "that they may receive remission of sins" ...Salvation means we are brought to the place we are able to receive something from god on the authority of Jesus Christ, viz., the remission of sins. There then follows the second mighty work of grace - "and inheritance amongst them which are sanctified." In sanctification the regenerated soul deliberately gives up his right to himself to Jesus Christ, and identifies himself entirely with God's interest in other men."​

What I was wondering about was how is the forgiveness of sins and our forgiving others related?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thats interesting, can you say more? How did Augustine get that idea - because some form of it seems quite widespread in churches.

What was the purpose of Jesus death in your view?

I was reading Oswald Chambers and he talks about two works of Grace. He writes:

"The first sovereign work of grace is summed up in the words - "that they may receive remission of sins" ...Salvation means we are brought to the place we are able to receive something from god on the authority of Jesus Christ, viz., the remission of sins. There then follows the second mighty work of grace - "and inheritance amongst them which are sanctified." In sanctification the regenerated soul deliberately gives up his right to himself to Jesus Christ, and identifies himself entirely with God's interest in other men."​

What I was wondering about was how is the forgiveness of sins and our forgiving others related?

Personally, I don't forgive others until they ask for it and give some indication that they're at least willing to work on mending their ways. I'm not a proponent of cheap mercy or grace either. I am a proponent, though, of forbearance with others since I know we're all human.

 

[James_Lai]

As I understand it, when Jesus says "you did these things" or "you did not do these things" (to the least of my brethren), He is talking to born again Christians when He says "you did these things;" He is talking to everyone else when He says "you did not do these things." Neither one or more acts of kindness can save your soul, nor will the failure to act damn you. You are saved or damned based on whether or not you trust Christ as your Lord and Savior.

As to James Lai's comments about scientists: Most scientists, those of the mainstream scientific community, are not as honest as you indicate. They were trained to believe standard theories of origins and natural history as fact; opposing, scientific points of view, such as those of biblical, young universe/earth creationists were not presented alongside in their schooling. Most scientists/educators/media types suppress creationism because they have been told it is not science, not because they have really checked out the evidence for themselves.

If we talk about science in general, it’s honest. Take for example math, chemistry or physics.

 

[hedrick]

Thats interesting, can you say more? How did Augustine get that idea - because some form of it seems quite widespread in churches.

What was the purpose of Jesus death in your view?

I've been part of many discussions on the atonement, which I think is a way into what Christ did. The three major treatments of which I'm aware are Rom 6, Hebrews around chap 9, and Jesus' words of institution.

All imply that the purpose is to change us, not God, and not to make it possible for God to forgive us. That God is capable of forgiving without Christ's death we see in

"While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will have the world judged in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”(Act 17:30-31)

"whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus." (Rom 3:25-26)

Both imply that God forgave sin but that it wasn't fully dealt with until Christ.

The Words of institution and Hebrews see Christ's death as a covenant sacrifice, to write God's law into our hearts. But they don't explain how that can work. Paul, in Rom 6, says that it works because we are in Christ, and through him experience death to sin and new life. Rom 6:7, in the overall context, suggests that normally forgiveness would happen at death, but being in Christ brings that into current life.

So does this affect us only in this life? If the main purpose is to bring us now into the resurrection life, does it matter in eternity. While Paul doesn't answer this in Rom 6, I think he does answer it in 1 Cor 15. That passage sees that humanity (or at least the part of humanity that survives judgement) as all destined to be in Christ. So it's reasonable to suggest that the new life depends upon Christ even in eternity, but through faith in him we can experience this now.

Does the eternal function depend upon his death? Paul's argument in Rom 6 would apply primarily to this life I think. But I would argue that in eternity it's not his death in itself, but the loving obedience to death that qualifies him as the source of life for everyone. (Indeed Calvin's initial treatment of the atonement focuses on Christ's obedience, noting that it's not just his death but his entire life of obedient service.)

I don’t mean to downplay his status as mediator, but you asked specifically about his death.

 

[Tolworth John]

I am not sure what I believe. I have had mental health issues, and I just don't know what I really believe.

So get a pen and a writting pad and start writing what you believe.
Is there a God? What evidence do you have?
Did Jesus really exist? what evidence do you have?
Did Jesus die, be burried and rise from the dead? What evidence do you have for or against?

Attending church as a seeker, being honest about ones lack of belief/faith and asking questions of the preacher is one way of finding out what you believe.
Reading sites like reasonablefaith, wintery knight, tough questions answered and answersingenesis.
Are ways to search out reasons behind Christianity.

You could also check out the christianityexplored web site for churches running this course in your area.
The course gives one a chance to discuss, ask question etc about Christianity.